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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Topic started by: martianuk on Friday 18 March 05 22:56 GMT (UK)
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If there is a single Van Toll/VanToll anywhere in England in 1841 or 1851 - he's mine! It's a rare/ 99.99999% non-existant dutch name in the UK at this time.
Here's my dilemma:
I have a marriage in March 1851 Paddington of Henry Delmar VanToll to Emma Mary Lamb (both full age). He resided at Paddington St Mary, she "of the James District". He was a Gentleman/fund holder, possibly 24 or 25 in 1851.
Here is the mystery: I have a death cert for a Henry Delmar VanToll in 1854 (age 28), and a highly suspicious birth of his son Frank Orlando Henry Delmar (no VanToll on his birth cert) was born 3 years later in 1857 (Broad Street, Greenwich)!!!!!! In 1861, widow Emma (b ca 1834, Twickenham) is misread by 1837online as Van Tole and Frank is Frank Delmar, son (maybe small ditto marks are missing under his mother's listing). By the time Frank hits a census in 1871, he's had the VanToll name added and even marries as a VanToll and so life goes on for all the VanToll descendents - but are they VanTolls??
If anyone can search their regional indexes for the married couple in 1851 - maybe they'll be found. I hope they didn't decide to honeymoon in Holland!
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Post Office London Directory (Small Edition), 1852
Henry Van Toll & Co, wine merchants, 23 St. Mary at Hill
What does Frank's birth certificate say - does it just give 'Henry Delmar' as a father? You might also want to try finding his baptism record since there may be different information on that.
National Archives also has:
HO 1/31/1033
Naturalisation Papers: Van Toll, Henry Delmar, from Holland. Certificate 1033 issued 9 November 1849.
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Knowing how hard it was to find info on this family, that's superb detective work. I posted this request a few months ago now and did since find both of those references, but truly appreciate you looking too.
Just to let you know, that I figured out that Frank was illegitimate, as was his brother who was named Alfred with Delmar and Van Toll attached. He died within the same quarter as his birth.
Upon ordering the naturalisation papers (which were fascinating, but didn't lead anywhere) Henry claimed to have had Dutch parents, had only lived in Holland for 6 weeks (to his knowledge), only knew English as a language, had no known living relatives at the time of application, except one aunt that also lived in England - but I know nothing of her whereabouts or name or which which side she born on...etc etc, just 'aunt'.
Still haven't found the happy couple in 1851, but they weren't in Holland then!
Thanks Jorose, I'm sure they'll turn up some day. It's only the blood line to the wife that I'm after now, although I'm definitely still curious to know about the man whose name was passed through my family for 3 generations. Unfortunately, it died out with the birth of girls in the 1920's.
Kind regards, Kirsty
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I don't know how relevant this may be , but my great grandfather was Frank Henry Orlando Delmar Van Toll. He lived in Worthing, West Sussex and owned tobacconist businesses in the town. He is buried in a local cemetery with his wife ,Georgina and my grandparents grave is nearby (she was one of five children, the youngest of whom , Edmund, died in infancy in the typhus epidemic- 1901?)
Is there any chance this could be the same family?
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Yes!!!! Blimey! I have much to tell you and documents and newspaper articles. I'll message you.
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Goodness, that was fast. OK, great. I obviously have more bits of information-Emma remarried (I think) and lived in Worthing too- which I hope will be useful to you.
Fascinating if FHOD was illegitimate: my grandma's family was ultra respectable!!
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Yes, reading back on the posts, I already said a lot of stuff about them. What just tickled me about this site is that when I hit post on my reply, it automatically converted one of my sentences to blimey! I used the oh my goodness acronym. Must be on the naughty list...
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Oh, Irving! Yes, the Irvings are cremated and in the same grave as one of the VanTolls. I need to to root out my files. The Irvings were up north weren't they? Or they moved up north and Georgina died up there while staying or living with them. Ida Kathleen was known as Auntie Bim to my dad and his sister.
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Marriage Licence - James Ellis bach. and Emma Mary Van Toll widow 9/1/1867 St.Peter Pimlico
Jennifer
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1881 census Yateley Green Hampshire
James Ellis 51 Farmer 14 acres Yateley
Emma 47 Farmers wife Twickenham
Sarah Lamb 56 visitor Indp. "
Frank Vantall visitor Commercial Clerk Gummet Kent
1901 census 3 Wsarwick Place Worthing
James Ellis 70 Engineer Gas Works (worker) Yateley
Emma 68 Twickenham.
Wills on-line for Van Toll's.
Jennifer
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Looks like they went to Bath for their honeymoon.
1851 census Pultney Hotel Bathwick
Henry Van Toll 23 Annuitant Amsterdam
Emma 22 Richmond
Jennifer
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Appreciate your searches, Jennifer :) Thank you
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A bombshell for anyone interested in Henry Delmar Van Toll:
I've just played a hunch and come up trumps with the will of Henry Philip Hope (1774–1839), scion of the Anglo-Dutch banking family of that name and a collector of art and gems who once personally owned the Hope Diamond. He left a great deal of money and some valuable mementos to young Henry Delmar Van Toll and his aunt (or 'aunt'?), Maria Minna Delmar. Hope's will states that Mrs. Delmar was his 'esteemed, beloved and valued' friend for 'upwards of 37 years', but that doesn't preclude the possibility that young Henry was their child, rather than her nephew.
I am writing to everyone I can identify with an interest in the extended family to ask if anyone has found evidence that young Henry's putative father, also Henry Delmar Van Toll, existed at all. It's certainly rather odd that he should carry the name 'Delmar' when Maria Minna Delmar is otherwise identified as the widow of one Colonel Delmar of the Dutch service, and her maiden name seems to be something like 'Vanderplan' (it's not clear on her marriage certificate of 1842, and three native Dutch speakers have yet to decipher it for me).
Henry Philip Hope's will explains how Maria Minna Delmar and Henry Delmar Van Toll both came to be wealthy, but it deepens the mystery of his birth and her early life. In the event, her second (?) husband, Frederick Orlando Tompson Delmar, inherited her money and her name, and on his death endowed a charitable trust that exists to this day.
Any light any other family historian could shed on this story would be appreciated by the Friends of Kensal Green Cemetery, who are now keeping a watchful eye on the Grade II Listed Tompson Delmar monument, one tangible legacy of this remarkable story.
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Just looked at some newspaper records - Maria's marriage reported there with her as the widow of "Colonel Henry Delmar". Also, at Henry Delmar Van Toll's death in the newspaper he is reported as late of the 74th Highlanders - probably won't lead you to his parentage but interesting military link.
There are a number of interesting records available at familysearch.org that are not name-indexed but images only (e.g. like digital microfilm) - I suggest you have a look at what's there for the Netherlands, I believe there are some civil bmds.
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I didn't know that about non-indexed images. Can you post a link, Jorose?