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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: bel_jon68 on Wednesday 12 May 04 22:43 BST (UK)
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I have a problem with my g-g-grandfather. Can anyone help please?
1871 Census:
George ARTHUR (29) Head
Elizabeth ARTHUR (23) Wife
Hannah Arthur (14) Sister-in-law
John Roberts Arthur (2mo)
1881 Census:
George ARTHUR (37) Head
Hannah ARTHUR (27) Wife
John Roberts Arthur (b1871)
Sephorah Jane Arthur (b1873)
Allin Thomas Arthur (b1875)
George Henry Arthur (b1877)
Evan Lloyd (b1879)
So, at some point between 1871 and 1881, George remarried. However, there doesn't seem to be a respectable gap between the children (and there were more to come) to allow for the death of Elizabeth and the marriage to Hannah.
Things I don't know are:
Elizabeth's maiden name - if Hannah is George's sister-in-law in 1871, with surname Arthur, this means Elizabeth is Elizabeth Arthur, but I can find no record of a George Arthur marrying an Elizabeth Arthur. I have found a George Arthur m Elizabeth ROBERTS (which might explain the unusual middle name of the first-born son). I have also found a George Arthur marrying a Hannah Roberts, and the death of an Elizabeth Arthur age 24 a few months after the eldest son was born. AM I MAKING DANGEROUS ASSUMPTIONS?
Who is Hannah Arthur? Is she the Hannah who was Elizabeth's sister and has gained 3 years in age by 1881? Or is she a completely different Hannah? I have found a number of potenial Hannahs m potential George Arthurs between 1871 and 1881.
Any suggestions on what to do here (other than ordering all the birth certificates for the children?)
Another problem with George is that his age is given as 29/37/46/59 ON THE 1871-1901 census returns, so I can't track down his birth certificate (there are a LOT of George Arthurs born in Denbighshire in the 1840s!). Anyone any ideas?
I'm also having trouble tracking down the births of 4 of the children (out of the 11 I know of) and they all have quite unusual names - again, any suggestions?
All I do know about George is that he was a Police Officer in 1871/1881/1891 and 1901 (he'd retired by 1911). I would love to get hold of his birth certificate, but he's a bit slippery - are there any Police archives that would have info about serving officers in Wales during the decades in question? I've found a few police history sites, but all seem to be focused on England/The Met.
Any comments/queries/suggestions would be gratefully received as George is leading me a right merry dance!
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Hi
Just a few thoughts
there doesn't seem to be a respectable gap between the children (and there were more to come) to allow for the death of Elizabeth and the marriage to Hannah.
He had young children and no social security like there is today - he had to keep working; this meant getting married quickly, very often it was a sister of his ex-wife, or even her best mate - but he had to get someone to look after the kids so that he could work.
Elizabeth's maiden name - if Hannah is George's sister-in-law in 1871, with surname Arthur, this means Elizabeth is Elizabeth Arthur, but I can find no record of a George Arthur marrying an Elizabeth Arthur. I have found a George Arthur m Elizabeth ROBERTS (which might explain the unusual middle name of the first-born son). I have also found a George Arthur marrying a Hannah Roberts, and the death of an Elizabeth Arthur age 24 a few months after the eldest son was born. AM I MAKING DANGEROUS ASSUMPTIONS?
I have got to agree with your assumptions here - we know Enumerators copied the actual census details onto their own returns and then the original was destroyed - It is more than likely he made a small mistake in the copying. (have you had sight of the census scan, or are you working on a transcription)
Who is Hannah Arthur? Is she the Hannah who was Elizabeth's sister and has gained 3 years in age by 1881? Or is she a completely different Hannah? I have found a number of potenial Hannahs m potential George Arthurs between 1871 and 1881.
Think you have to play this one by ear till you get a definite death date for Elizabeth and a marriage date for Hannah - but it is highly likely.
Another problem with George is that his age is given as 29/37/46/59 ON THE 1871-1901 census returns
The first census and the last census agree, so what is your problem (He had to make himself younger on the other census cos he had a young wife)
All I do know about George is that he was a Police Officer in 1871/1881/1891 and 1901 (he'd retired by 1911).
Yes, there are lots of police archives, where was he stationed. I will try to find the web address for the police archive.
Hope some of the above helped you
Chris in 1066Land
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Hi
Some Police Contacts that will have links to other Police Sites.
PoliceUK.com | Police Related Books
Online resource for police recruitment and general policing information in the UK ... from the 18th century onwards draws on largely unused police archives. The text addresses all the major issues of ... www.policeuk.com
Part 1: The Police Gazette, issues for 1866-1878, 1882-1897 & 1899-1900
THE POLICE GAZETTE Part 1: The Police Gazette, issues for 1866-1878, 1882-1897 & 1899-1900 from the Cambridgeshire Police Archives 12 reels of 35mm silver-halide positive microfilm plus guide "No ... www.adam-matthew-publications.co.uk
Metropolitan Police Service - History
The history of the Metropolitan Police Service ... history, illustrated with over 250 images from the Metropolitan Police archives. Buy online by clicking here (once at ... www.met.police.uk
West Midlands Police: Crime and Punishment
... Here are extracts from the West Midlands Police archives, giving a glimpse of the life of a policeman in Victorian ... www.stvincent.ac.uk
Chris in 1066Land
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You might also find some help if you get in touch with the North Wales police headquarters in Colwyn Bay (formerly Denbs, then Clwyd, now Conwy).
(01492) 517171
Abergele Rd
Old Colwyn
LL29 8AW
Good luck,
D ap D
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concerning George the policeman another site to search [which has now been updated and is better than my last comments :-[ ] is
http://www.policeorders.co.uk/
there are several Arthur surnames but as yet i havent seen George. I'll have another look for you later.dont suppose you have a warrant / shoulder number? ???
and with all the other ideas members have offered, looks like you got a bit to be getting on with. [great site this ;) ]
jaq
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Thanks to all of you for the helpful comments and suggestions. As you may have gathered, I'm new to all this and it's great to have people like you who are so willing to help out and share your knowledge.
I'm so glad I found this site - it's the best!
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jaq and bel_jon68,
You are right, this is a great site, it's the users like you that make it great. ;)
bel_jon68, good luck with your search, and let us know how you get on.
Kazza.
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I have to add my little bit regarding the kindness and support from members on this site.I was looking for an ancestor from Isle of Lewis on the Ross and Cromatary site and this very kind person{cant thank him enough}gave up some of his credits to search Scotlands people for me.You dont get many people like that that actually spend their own money to help someone else.I find this incredible,but thats rootschat a great site with great members.Thankyou.Anne. ;)
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Hi there, you could consider getting just the eldest 2's birth certificates as the eldest was Elizabeth's and the 2nd one Hannah's so you should find both their maiden names on them.
Jean
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I have obtained the second child's birth certificate (arrived today) and it gives her mother's name as Hannah Arthur formerly Roberts. This is great, as it narrows down the years in which Elizabeth died and Hannah became Mrs Arthur No 2. The certificate also gives the name of the house where they were living, which is great (I think it's now a pub, but need to double check).
HOWEVER, as one puzzle is solved, another arises!! :P
George's occupation on the 1871/81/91 and 1901 census returns is given as Police Constable/Police Officer. So in 1871 he was a PC but in 1873 when his daughter was born he gives his occupation as Farmer!! Could he have given up his job as a Policeman when Elizabeth died??
There are also curious markings on the birth certificate, CAN ANYONE EXPLAIN THEM PLEASE? George's forename is written as John, then crossed out and a small 2 written above John, with George written above and to the right. At the side of the last column, there is a note which I can't decipher - looks like "Two T.W. ???Reg" I don't have a scanner, so can't attach it sorry, but any ideas?
???
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In Scotland on a registery you often get numbers and cryptic abbreviations that often refer to a corrections log when the registrar has made a mistake.
Not sure if this is similar in your case?
Pam
;D
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Thanks, Pam - that may well be the case - I'm probably looking too deeply and creating more trouble for myself!
This George has been a bugbear of mine ever since I found him, but I think I may now have found his birth registration record and am eagerly awaiting the birth certificate. If the birthplace given on the certificate is what I hope it is, I'll finally have found the right one and it will help to pinpoint the correct marriage certificates. :)
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Just an idea but some search engines put the small no. 2 next to a name indicated it is a second name (i.e. middle name)
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It occurred to me it might be a second name (although I've not come across him as George John anywhere else), but would it have been crossed out if it WAS his second name? If he was George John, maybe I've got the wrong birth details after all???? I shall have to wait and see what the certificate I've ordered says!!
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Let us hope that any police records he wrote where more accurate than the details given re his age etc etc!!
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And let's hope he had more luck tracing criminals than I'm having tracing him!! ;D
A horrible thought occurred to me late last night - his middle name may well have been John, as his first-born son was named John Roberts Arthur (Roberts being most likely contender at the moment for his mother's maiden name). This could mean I've missed him in my search because I've been looking for a plain George Arthur, not a George John Arthur - may be back to the drawing board on that one... :(
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To update you all on my research and pose another question (sorry!)
I have Elizabeth’s death certificate – she died at 24 from consumption.. She WAS formerly Roberts, as was Hannah. Hannah appears to have married George in 1873 (certificate to be obtained).
I now have a birth certificate for a George Arthur, whose date of birth ties in with the ages given on the 1871 and 1901 census returns BUT his PLACE of birth was not as expected. It is shown on the census returns as:
1871 Glyn Ceiriog, Denbighshire, Wales
1881 Glyn, Denbigh, Wales
1891 Denbighshire, Glyn
1901 Denbigh, Glyn
I have been assuming that “Glyn” refers to “Glyn Ceiriog”, as in the 1871 census. However, the birthplaces given for his second wife and eldest daughter in the same transcription are also “Glyn Ceiriog, Denbighshire, Wales”, but I know the eldest daughter was born in Nantyr, Denbighshire, as were subsequent children (as borne out by birth certificate/1891 and 1901 census images).
So, is the 1871 transcription for the family misleading? Has perhaps the transcriber assumed it was Glyn Ceiriog ??? Could my George be the one whose birth certificate I have, showing him born in Glyn Triain (very nearby), not Glyn Ceiriog?
What do you all think? ???(It would be nice if it was him, as he shares a birthday with one of my sons!)
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I know this area of Wales changed boundaries my lot are from Glyn Triain and it is spitting distant (I believe) to Glyn Ceiriog - I think it is the same valley.
See this bit about Pontfadog:-
The new parish of Pontfadog was formed on 15 April 1848, from the ancient parish of Llangollen. It comprised the whole of Glyn Traean - i.e. the townships of Cilcochwyn, Crogeniddon, Crogenwladus, Erwallo, Hafodgynfor, Nantygwryd, Pennant and Talygarth; and the township of Cysylltau from Llangollen Traean. Cysylltau returned to Llangollen in 1870.
With all this activity maybe residents were confused when they filled in their census books?
Pam
;D
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Pam – yes, it is a bit confusing when areas keep changing. It certainly doesn’t help us in trying to track people down.
And to add to the confusion, I found the following:
“From Reports of Charity Commissioners Vol 32 c1840's Parish of Llangollen 160 This parish is divided into three traians or districts called Llangollen Traian, Trevor Traian, and Traian y Glyn. They have one church in common, with a churchwarden to each. The two former, lying contiguous, unite in raising rates and paying their poor; but the traian of Glyn, being separated by an intervening mountain, raises its rates separately, and pays its own poor; and removals take place from one portion of the parish to the other. The same rule of separation is generally observed in the application of the charities. Each traian contains several townships.”
So we have Traian y Glyn and Glyn Traian!
Incidentally, I noticed in another post that it was suggested it could be spelt Glyn Traean – however, I would agree with the original spelling you had, as this is the exact spelling that appears on the Birth Certificate for the George Arthur that I hope is mine.
I have also come across a Glyn Triain Community Council mentioned in minutes of a meeting of the North Wales Police Authority: Police and Community Consultative Group (Wrexham). It might be that the person who typed this minutes up spelt Glyn Traian incorrectly as TRIAIN, it’s an easy mistake to make.
Maybe one day I’ll get the chance to go for a drive around Llangollen and find out if the villages I’m interested in still exist! They don’t appear on today’s maps and I haven’t yet found them on Victorian maps.
If any RootsChatters know Llangollen and environs well, perhaps they could enlighten us please??
Bel
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Pam
I've done a bit more digging and found some stuff in The Imperial Gazetteer of England and Wales 1872 regarding the places I'm interested in - Pontfadog is within Glyn Traian, so looks like our ancestors came from the same place!! Which years are you looking at?
Bel
PS I've tried to attach images for the first time - hope it's worked OK
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My lot are Hughes from Crogen Iddon which is about 1 mile west of Pontfadog.
http://www.multimap.com/map/browse.cgi?X=325000&Y=337500&width=700&height=400&client=public&gride=323412.182360763&gridn=338352.788206864&srec=0&coordsys=gb&addr1=&addr2=&addr3=&pc=&advanced=&local=&scale=50000&multimap.x=290&multimap.y=143
That may not work as a link, search multimap for Pontfadog and set it to 25,000 scale
The family are at Croggen Iddon in 1851 and 1841 but not 1861. The family are Robert Hughes (shoemaker b: ~1796 Selattyn Salop) and Mary Parry (b: ~1806 Llangollen) they had 2 children in Salettyn and then 7 at Croggen Iddon. Richard their 2nd youngest (b ~1837)was my great, great grandfather a builder who moved to Llandudno.
I've been trying to puzzle over where they might be buried. I'm going to investigate Pontfadog church in the summer, just in case it was a death that meant they left the house rather than a pack up and go?
Cheers,
Pam