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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: lesB on Sunday 14 February 10 07:37 GMT (UK)
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Would some kind person be in a position to look-up the following please.
From Australian newspapers of the time I have gleaned the following information:
1. A son born in Dublin on the 18 April 1831 to William Wilbore Harlington BENSON & Margaret. (Church of Ireland).
2. Another announcement in a newspaper dated 18 March 1835 advised Welbore Eagle Albuera BENSON aged eight & half months, son of Lieutenant W W H BENSON had died at sea on the 4th February 1835 on the way to Van Diemans Land.
Because of the difference in times of birth this is not the same child as at 1 as I estimate he was born about May 1834.
I’m looking for any details on both however, because WWH Benson was an army man I wouldn’t be surprised if child at 2 wasn’t born in Dublin.
Thanks in anticipation, Les
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since the birth you are looking for is before civil registration started (1864) you would need to research church records to locate details of the birth/baptism. Do you know where in Dublin the event took place (i.e. county Dublin, the City, a street, or parish)?
some Dublin City and county parish records are available on - http://www.irishgenealogy.ie/
Shane
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Hi Shane,
Unfortunately, I can’t help with the exact location of the event in Dublin.
The Benson family were well connected. William W H Benson was reportedly the son of Rev’d William Benson of Ballybroud Limerick descendant of a long line of influential Churchmen in Ireland and England. I can only guess/hope that the first Baptism at least, took place in the main Church of Ireland in Dublin at that time.
I have had a look at the Internet site you mentioned but couldn’t find any answers there. As you pointed out not all parish records are covered yet.
Thank you for your interest, Les
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Baptisms usually took place in the parish church that covered the area where the parents lived at the time. There was quite number of Church of Ireland parishes in both Dublin City and County, all with their own churches.
Shane
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Thank you Shane, I do appreciate the problem as I thought Dublin was a city only.
The Author Turtle Bunbury on his site, www.turtlebunbury.com in the article called “Benson of the Fould” describes William, the Grandfather of WWH Benson thus “he lived in Downpatrick and established himself as a merchant in Abbey Street Dublin”.
In addition, WWH’s aunt Jane “married Charles Agar, first earl of Normanton and Archbishop of Dublin” This all happened some time before 1831 as the Earl as died in 1809 as Archbishop. But it does point to a strong connection to Dublin and might explain why they chose to have the baby there, perhaps whilst visiting family? I do have info that points to WWH stationed in England by July 1831 so it looks like a visit to Ireland only.
To summarise, the area around Abbey Street, and the Church where an Archbishop might ‘hang out’ are two likely parishes or could these be one and the same?
I hope this further detail might help, Les
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Without further details on the address I am not certain of which parish would apply for Abbey street as it is divided into three section and extends on both the east and west sides of Sackville (now O'Connell) street. These are the details based on what I can locate for slightly later times between about 1840 to 1870.
Lower Abbey Street runs from the east of Sackville st towards the Custom house and is in the Civil Parish of St. Thomas. At the time St Thomas Church was located at the northern end of Marlborugh St., but was destroyed in 1922 and rebuilt just off the original street on Cathal Brugha Street.
Middle Abbey Street runs to the west of Sackville st as far as Jervis Street, and is partially in the parish of St. Thomas and partially in the parish of St. Mary. The building still exists but is now a restaurant.
The remaining section (Upper Abbey Street) runs on further to the west as far as Capel street, and is also in St. Mary's Parish.
I presume an Archbishop of Dublin at the time would be based at one of the Cathedrals
the Cathedral - Christ Church (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_Church_Cathedral,_Dublin)
or St. Patrick's Cathedral (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Patrick%27s_Cathedral,_Dublin)
The first appears to be in the parish of St. John and the second in St. Nicolas Without.
Marlborough street is just to the north of Abbey Street and to the north of the river Liffey. Christ Church is on the south of Dublin city and near to Dublin Castle etc..and St. Patrick's is a little further south on Patrick Street.
Shane
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LesB
The Irish Church Directory 1961 at P.178 shows that Charles Agar Earl of Normanton was Archbishop of Dublin and Glendalough from 1801 until 1809
Any help?
Regards Quaxer
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Shane, Thank you for that great description of Abbey Street and Cathedrals. I spent some time on Google Maps finding it just as you described. You are obviously a Dubliner (hope that is the right term).
It looks as though you have narrowed the parishes down to about four viz
St Thomas, St Marys, St John and St Nicholas. Armed with this info I then looked at www.irishgenealogy. ie/ again hoping to find a list of completed parishes. No luck, that listing wasn’t available. It looks as though it was available previously or it may be under construction. Would you Shane, or anyone else have that list? I just want to (hopefully) narrow down my list of four parishes to any that haven’t been covered yet.
On reflection, I looked again at IGI just in case the 1831 Dublin born child was christened in England. At post #4 I mentioned that by July 1831 WWH was stationed with the 57th Foot Regiment in England specifically at Brompton- near-Chatham, Kent. No luck with my1831 nameless child but I did find William Eagle…..Benson and a sister Jane Normanton….Benson, whose birth I had been looking for some time.
In anticipation, Les
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no problem...
small point - there there are two different St. Nicholas parishes, St. Nicolas Without. and St. Nicolas Within. The term relates to the fact that one was inside the old city walls, and St. Patrick's Cathedral parish is just outside.
There is a list of parishes included in the IrishGenealogy website at - http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/location.jsp?diocese=DUBLIN, but they dont state if these are fully complete or still being worked on. At the moment the list includes St Nicholas Without and St. John's (both CofI). It's also worth noting that there are sometimes gaps in the surviving records.
I dont see a list anywhere on the website of the parishes they are working on, but it appears that they are concentrating on Dublin city (and county) parishes not included by other websites like the IFHF (which covers almost no city parishes) All I can suggest is to keep an eye on their website for updates... and also here on rootschat, as I'm sure any new parishes will be mentioned and discussed.
p.s. Dubliner is fine!
Shane
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Hi, thanks Shane and Quaxer,
Shane, thanks for that site. As you said there looks like more work to be done.
Wow! I just discovered your profile website. Those maps look interesting. Will have to spend time looking at them.
Quaxer, I was aware of Charles’s tenure as Archbishop of Dublin though I didn’t know about Glendalough. Will look it up on the web.
Whilst I have your attention, could I ask you to please look in your church directory for Rev’d William Benson described by a relative as Rector of Ballybroad Lunerwith? (I think this should be Limerick) I expect he was born 1830-1840’s in County Down. Not much is known of him so any information you can provide would be helpful.
Les
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Thank you for your message.The Diocese of Glendalough was unite d to that of Dublin after 1211.
In Slaters Directory 1894 I found a Ballybrood in Co.Limerick with a population of over 400 persons. Lunerwith defeats me as I could find no reference to it in that Directory. Neither could I find any reference to Rev. William Benson in that Directory. My C.of I. Directory for 1961 is too recent to be of any assistance.
The Church of Ireland was united to the Church of England until 1871 and many Irish clergy served in England.Although a 19th Century Thoms Directory (for Ireland) might help a better source would be an old Crockfords Clerical Directory for the period as it covered both Churches. Somebody on the English Board may respond to a posting that you could put there.
Regards Quaxer
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Thanks for your quick reply Quaxer.
Sorry you couldn't help, the Rev'd William Benson is probably my next target and I will eventually post re Crockfords Clerical Directory, although I hadn't come across a Thoms directory yet.
Interestingly, Ballybroad came from a net search when Ballybroud (as hand written) couldn't be found. Now you mention Ballybrood. Is this a typo?
Les
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I have a few Thom's directories that should cover the timeframe , 1848 onwards (with a few gaps) ... I'll have a look for any mention of Rev William Benson... and get back to you
Shane
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Re...WWH Benson...Arrived In Aust 1825, "Convict Ship Sesortris". He was an Ensign with the Reg 57th Regiment.
Married Margaret Welman [1st daughter of Major Welman of the same regiment as WWH. Welman was a veteran of the Peninsula Wars., who later retired in Launceston Tas. Marriage took place at St Phillips Sydney on the 8/9/1829. On the 27th May 1830 the Bensons departed Sydney on the "Katherine Stewat Forbes ,it is at this time Margaret gives birth to a son.[ no details as yet]. Jane Benson is born 17/2/1832. Welbore Eagle Benson is christened 4/6/1835. Arthur Welbore Benson is born on the 29th of November 1835 in Sydney. WWH & Margaret were living in Pitt st., WWH was now a Lieutenant in the 39th Regiment.
I have a a detailed history of Arthur's" descendants. If you are interested I can provide you with more details source and newspaper articles. I am currently trying to establish WWH ancestry? and also where he retired and died. My wife is a direct descendant of WWH, I am currently trying to track down his military records at the Nat.Arch. UK. My Email is "(*)". Looking forward to exchanging Geno history with you
Gerrie Sterel
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LesB
Ballybrood (yes double O) is the spelling in Slaters 1894.
Could Lunerwith be in England? It has an English ring to it.
Regards Quaxer
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Hi thank you Shane, Quaxer and gdsterel,
Sorry for not repling quicker but updating computer.
Shane, whoops! in an earlier post I led everyone astray. 1848 would be too late as the Rev'd William Benson would have been born around 1730-1740's ( only a century out), sorry.
Quaxer, Ballybrood does look correct as Google Maps said so! I guess the other variations occured in misinterpretations.
Welcome gdsterel, I have sent you a personal message. Look forward to hearing from you.
Les
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LesB
Ballybrood (yes double O) is the spelling in Slaters 1894.
Could Lunerwith be in England? It has an English ring to it.
Regards Quaxer
have to say that I agree that Lunerwith does not sound like an Irish placename to me either, although towns and areas were renamed at various stages so it's possible.
what's the source the 'Ballybroad Lunerwith' clue ? is it printed, written down or verbal..
Shane
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Hi Shane
It came from notes hand written by a now deceased Benson to one of his grand daughters. No one knows where he obtained such information. I believe he must have carried out some research, but there is such detail that I can only assume it has been handed down to him from a previous ancestor.
Les
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the reason I was wondering was that I would think that any misinterpretation would depend on how these details were originally obtained and passed down.
i.e. if these placenames were passed down as a verbal family story, then probably the words should be interpreted phonetically, rather than as a misinterpretation of handwriting, in which case Lunerwith does not sound much like Limerick..
Have you seen the original notes ?
Shane
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Shane
Yes, I have seen the original notes which are quite clear, although I do agree with you that it must be Limerick.
I have wondered if you or anyone else reading this would know if the Crockfords Clerical Directory covering the Church of Ireland/England is an historical account of the previous years say as far back as the mid to late 1700's, or does it cover just the year it may have been printed.
I will probably or should start a new topic on this if I can't find an answer here.
Les
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Les
Regret I cannot recall what year Crockfords started but it certainly does record brief biographical details of living clergy. It is not unlikely that there were other directories before Crockfords and maybe the Librarian at Lambeth Palace London could help you further.
Regards Quaxer
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I have wondered if you or anyone else reading this would know if the Crockfords Clerical Directory covering the Church of Ireland/England is an historical account of the previous years say as far back as the mid to late 1700's, or does it cover just the year it may have been printed. ..
According to Crockford's website (http://www.crockford.org.uk/), the first edition was published in 1858...you can view a scanned version (in various formats) of the first edition online at : Crockford's - 1858 (http://www.archive.org/details/crockfordscleri00commgoog) at archive.org
I found a reference to Ballybrood and the name Benson in a Topographical Directory of 1810 by a Nicholas Carlisle. (search for Benson ballybrood on google books) Extract below :
ISERT LAURENCE, in the Barony of Clanwilliam, Co. of Limerick.... a Rectory and Vicarage endowed ....united ..to the rectories and vicarages of Ballybrood, Listeely and Rathjordan... The Rev. William Benson, the Precentor (in1806) who has cure of souls, and resident. .. Diocese of Emly..it is 6m S.E. from Limerick
see : link to page (http://books.google.ie/books?id=k9k-AAAAYAAJ&pg=PT385&dq=benson+ballybrood&as_brr=1&ei=wkSCS_XkEaG4yQSCvcnBCw&cd=1#v=onepage&q=benson%20ballybrood&f=false)
See details on Ballybrood in Lewis Topographical Directory of 1837 (http://www.libraryireland.com/Lewis/LewisB/3-BALLYBROOD.php)
note: in some of the older books on google, the place name is written as two words - i.e. "Bally Brood"
Shane
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Thank you Quaxer and Shane for your efforts.
Shane, It wouldn't surprise me that you may have found the elusive Rev'd William Benson, certainly the first reference to him that I have seen.
A little later than I had first thought but certainly a possibility. I will need to follow it up from the sources you mentioned. Well done!
Quaxer, you mentioned "the Librarian at Lambeth Palace, London" may be able to help. Excuse my ignorance but was there any special reason for suggesting this source of enquiry.
Les
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LesB
Yes,it is probably the Central Library of the Church of England.
Regards Quaxer
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there's a link to a database mentioned on the Occupation's board that might be of interest.
Clergy of Church of England Database
http://eagle.cch.kcl.ac.uk:8080/cce/
not certain what the coverage of this is, but seems to include some early records...
Shane
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Thank you Shane and Quaxer
Shane, you have certainly given me hope that I will eventually find details on the Rev'd Benson. The site you mentioned seems to deal with the Church in England. There are a few Bensons, so I will look in my notes as I believe they were represented in the Clergy of England and Ireland.
Quaxer, If I can't find info on the net a written approach to Lambeth Palace may be my next move.
Les
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Hello,
I am a new member of this site, and am interested in the family of Harvey WELMAN, Officer in the 57th Regiment of Foot, and in particular by his first wife Abigail PIGOTT of Dublin. They were married in St Andrew's (C.of I.), Dublin, 26 Jul 1806, she being the eldest daughter of Robert PIGOTT (ca 1759-1829), retired Inspector-General of Excise.
Harvey & Abigail's first child, Margaret WELMAN, was born at Wexford, 10 Dec 1807 (she is the one who married William Welborne H. BENSON (a son of Archdeacon William BENSON of Ballybrood & Emly, Co Limerick); their other issue were John Cameron WELMAN, b Warrington, Cheshire, 6 Jan 1810; Mary WELMAN, b Gibraltar, 24 Feb 1812; Harvey Wellesley Pole WELMAN, b Wexford, 10 Jun 1814; Abigail WELMAN, b Dublin, 13 Mar 1818; & Hercules WELMAN, b Enniscorthy, Co Wexford, 25 Apr 1819.
Abigail died 10 Oct 1824, probably in Ireland, & Harvey marr 2ndly, at St Mark's (C.of I.), Dublin, 16 Dec 1825, to Mary COLLINS. They had a further 6 children in Kent & then in Sydney; Harvey completed several tours of duty with his Regiment in India, and retired back to Launceston in 1842. He died there in 1869. His widow appears to have returned to England, & died at Gosport, Hants, in 1876.
I have posted some details of this family on my blog at www.pigott-gorrie.blogspot.com in the earliest posting under "Captain John PIGOTT of Stradbally &c."
Regards,
Chris PIGOTT, Potts Point, N.S.W.
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Welcome to RootsChat Chris
It has been a while since I have looked any further into questions raised & help received on this post so excuse me if I am a bit rusty. Although I have recently received valuable help from GD Steral (post#13) regarding bith/baptism of Lieut WWH Benson son of William=Jane.
I can see from your referenced “Blog” that you are no stranger to Genealogy research. I would venture to say, by comparison that I’m a beginner!
I have found the RootsChat people who have given of their time in helping me an invaluable aid to my various lines of family research.
I would be interested in any information you may have re the Welman line.
To this end, you will need to post at least two more postings before we can use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging data. By use of the PM system we can exchange email addresses.
Perhaps I might start the ball rolling by asking if you have any further knowledge of the elusive (genealogy speaking) rev’d William Benson?
Les
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Lt William Welborn Harlington BENSON may have arrived in Sydney instead on the ship "Houghley" on 22 Aug 1825.
He appears to have had issue by Margaret Olivia WELMAN, as follows:
1. A son, born on board the ship "Katherine Stewart Forbes" in Sydney Harbour, 23 May 1830, 4 days before sailing on a voyage direct to England.
2. A son, b Dublin, 18 Apr 1831 (no baptism found in Dublin Church records - perhaps instead the baptism of the previous?
3. Welborne Eagle Albuera BENSON, bt St George's, Gravesend, 4 Jun 1834; died at sea, 4 Feb 1835, on a voyage to Van Diemen's Land.
4. Arthur Welborne Cameron BENSON, b 29 Nov 1835; died at Millthorpe, N.S.W., 1908 Reg #10252.
5. William Porteous McArtney Welman BENSON, b Oct 1837; of Deep Dene, Mosman, 1909; died at his residence, Braemar, Edgecliff Rd, Seathforth, near Manly, 7 Sep 1925, as the result of a tram accident, aged 87, late of H.M.'s Customs; marr Margaret GARDNER; she died at Seaforth, 7 Dec 1927, at the residence of her daughter Alice (Mrs Herbert THURLOW), beloved mother of Mrs H. HODKINSON, Mrs M. SUTHERLAND (Margaret Isabel), Mrs F. GRIFFITHS, Mrs H. THURLOW, & sons Edward, (George) Claude, (Charles) Sydney, & Harold BENSON.
6. Rosena Dianne Olivia BENSON.
7. Francis Napoleon Bingley GROVES BENSON; Ensign, 17th Regiment, 19 Jul 1859; transferred to the 73rd Regiment; Lieut, 8 Jul 1862; Captain, 16 Oct 1866; marr at St Anne's C.of I.), Dublin, 24 Apr 1862, Ellen Wise REVINGTON.
8. Rubina Georgina Catherine BENSON, b Clontarf, Co Dublin, 5 May 1845, & bapt Clontarf (C.of I.), 24 Jun (see the www.irishgenealogy.ie website).
I see that William Welbore Harlington BENSON was baptised at Hillingdon, near London, 18 Sep 1807, the son of William & Jane BENSON.
He is said to have been the grandson of William BENSON of Co Down (b ca 1710), by his wife Frances McArtney PORTEOUS.
Regards,
Chris PIGOTT.
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A lineage of the BENSON family can be found at this link:
http://www.turtlebunbury.com/history/history_family/hist_family_benson.html
Looks like Rev William BENSON, Archdeacon of Emly, was a brother of Jane BENSON, who was the wife of Charles AGAR, Achbishop of Dublin & Primate of Ireland (also the 1st Viscount Somerton and 1st Earl of Normanton - so there's a good starting point); she died 25 Oct 1826 & was buried in Westminster Cathedral.
Their father appears to have been William BENSON, of Downpatrick, Co Down, & a Merchant in Abbey St, Dublin; married Frances McArtney PORTEOUS (alias PORTIS), daur of George PORTEOUS of Belfast.
He was the youngest son of Rev Edward BENSON, Rector of Downpatrick & Prebend of Down Cathedral; he was adm Trinity College, Dublin, 1697; died 14 Sep 1741; marr Jane, daur of Rev John WINDER.
Edward was the son of William BENSON, who died 25 Jul 1685, & was buried in Down Cathedral, aged 33, by his wife Ellen HIGGINSON (marr 1675).
I expect you will want to verify the actual connection of Rev William of Emly, but that should not prove to be too difficult a task. The naming of the Australian BENSON's certainly points to this particular family pedigree.
Regards,
Chris.
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HI Chris
Thank you for the information provided in your Welman & Benson postings. Some detail I was aware of and some not.
One of the details I was not aware of was the birth date/place info on Rubina Georgina Catherine Benson although I couldn’t find Rubina on the site reference you gave viz “(see the www.irishgenealogy.ie website)” ?
The arrival of Ensign WWH Benson on the "Hoogley" may be incorrect. Gerrie Sterel, in a private communication, advised me of a newspaper item in which an Ensign Benson arrived in Sydney Cove on the “Sesostris” on 23 Mar 1826.
Yes I agree that the naming of various Benson children does point to a family belief in a connection. One of these is WWH’s daughter Jane Normanton Barker Benson (b 17 Feb 1832 Kent). The Normanton is obviously a reference to Charles Agar’s title of 1st Duke of Normanton.
I am aware of the Turtlebunbury site and my hope is to prove the connection of the Rev’d William’s descendant WWH Benson to Jane Benson (sibling?) and thus connect the lineage back to Barnard Benson of the Fould born 1495. There is another Internet site “Stirnet” which sets out in an outline descendant form the connection between Barnard & Jane Benson, http://www.stirnet.com/
With your third posting, I can now send you a Personal Message advising of my email address. This address will be useful in exchanging Gedcom files, jpegs etc that might be of interest.
Regards, Les
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There is, of course, another source that should prove very useful in confirming the lineage of the BENSON family.
All Ministers of the Established Church of England (& Ireland) were obliged to have taken a degree at an established university.
Alumni listings for Trinity College Dublin should contain the particular ministers in the Downpatrick family; and failing that, some may have received their degrees from either Oxford or Cambridge.
I know there are copies of all of these in the Society of Genealogists Library in Sydney, and probably also in the State Reference Library. If there are none near you, I can take a look for you.
I suspect that there may be BENSON family pedigrees in early editions of BURKE's Landed Gentry, etc, as well.
Regards,
Chris.
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I would be very pleased Chris, to take you up on your kind offer regarding a search in the Society of Genealogists Library for both the Alumni listings and the Burkes Landed Gentry for the Rev'd William Benson.
I live on the Gold Coast Qld, and have searched for the Burkes in the Council Library with no luck.
Les
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From "Alumni Dublinenses," Ed's BURTCHAEL & SADLIER, London, 1924, at p. 60, we find:
"BENSON, William, Pen. (Rev L. KERR) January 3, 1780, aged 17; s. of William, Mercator; b. Dublin; B.A. Vern 1784; M.A. (ad eund. Oxon) 1787. See Foster."
From "Alumni Oxon., 1715-1886" Ed Joseph FOSTER, Oxford, 1888, at p. 96, we find:
"BENSON, William [B.A. Trinity College Dublin], s.of William, of Dublin, arm.; St Mary Hall, incorp. 18 Jan 1785, aged 23; M.A. 1787."
From "Fasti Ecclesiae Hibernica," by Henry COTTON, Vol.1, at pp. 159 & 161, we find:
CHANCELLORS. Diocese of EMLY. - 1791. William BENSON, M.A., collated March 11th [to succeed John SEYMOUR, deceased]. In 1795 he resigned, and was made Praecentor.
PRAECENTORS, Diocese of EMLY. - 1795. William BENSON, M.A. of Oxford, Chancellor, collated August 14th. [He was succeeded by George MADDER, LL.D., who was collated 15 Amr 1814.]
Regards,
Chris PIGOTT.
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Well done Chris. Your research is excellent and so very valuable.
So the Rev’d William Benson received his BA from Trinity College Dublin & a MA from Oxford. Very heady stuff indeed!
It would seem that Rev’d William was born about 1763 in Dublin, son of William, a merchant. Your research certainly ties the Rev’d William to his sister Jane, believed to have lived 1757 & 1826. Jane married Charles Agar, later to become the first Earl of Normanton.
Thank you Chris for your efforts and RootsChat for making it possible.
Les