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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Paul E on Friday 18 March 05 18:54 GMT (UK)

Title: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: Paul E on Friday 18 March 05 18:54 GMT (UK)
Hi

I would really welcome views on who this mystery group might be: I bought this picture some 10 years ago in a charity shop; since then its been languishing in my shed awaiting the advent of the assembled expertise that is Rootschat!

I know NOTHING about the photo - but it may have a faintly colonial whiff about it, or maybe a trades union or political party, looking at the lapel badges.

Any views very welcome!

best wishes

Paul
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: Arranroots on Friday 18 March 05 19:42 GMT (UK)
Why is the chap in the middle in his jim-jams??  :o ;D ;D
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: JillJ on Friday 18 March 05 19:54 GMT (UK)
First impressions................I don't think it's colonial because it is set against what appears to be a very green hedge, maybe laurel but difficult to tell.

Not everyone is wearing a lapel badge and the people seated would appear to me to be 'special guests' otherwise why are there so few women and children?

The lapel badge is obviously relevant in some way;  I suppose you have tried to enlarge it?   Also it might help if you could post an enlargement of the 'special guests' - you never know, they could be famous people!

I would guess it is dated in the early 1900's, probably before 1920.

Jill


Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: Yoz on Friday 18 March 05 20:02 GMT (UK)
It looks as though some of the pins have a ribbon or tab on them, I tried to enlarge the photo of the 4 men but it got too blurry.


Could be some sort of Lodge or men's only club but guests invited that day.
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: Paul E on Friday 18 March 05 21:05 GMT (UK)
This is the best I can manage of the central group

Paul
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: Yoz on Friday 18 March 05 21:12 GMT (UK)
Is that a Koala on her knee???

Sorry! Where was the photo bought?
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: JillJ on Friday 18 March 05 21:14 GMT (UK)
Yoz

I was just thinking the same!   That lady looks to have Asian blood in her.

Jill
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: Yoz on Friday 18 March 05 21:16 GMT (UK)
Yep, probably way off mark but if it is a koala it may well be australian, hence the tanned skin or it is probably just a teddy...... :-\
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: Yoz on Friday 18 March 05 21:18 GMT (UK)
Gawd I keep seeing all my ancestors here...don't you think they all looked alike in that period?

The fella in the middle of the top photo has a chin like my grandad and the lady looks like my ggg aunt Lucy......


honestly!!!
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: JillJ on Friday 18 March 05 21:21 GMT (UK)
Steady on Yoz!   Wishful thinking ain't going to get you nowhere!

Jill
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: ryan on Friday 18 March 05 21:24 GMT (UK)
;D Yoz & Jill ;D

Anyways, I think that's just a plain old child's teddy bear on that Lady's lap.
Also, I agree with Yoz. I think a men's club would be your best bet Paul. Perhaps they are all academics?

Ryan.

:)
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: deadants on Friday 18 March 05 21:27 GMT (UK)
Wow if that's a koala in Paul's picture, it must be a mutant. :D


deadants
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: JillJ on Friday 18 March 05 21:37 GMT (UK)
Could be a gathering to celebrate a taxidermist's work on the club mascot!

If its a 'men only' club I'm pretty certain it isn't a masonic lodge and I don't get a feeling of acadamia either.   What about something like Round Table - I think they wear lapel badges but don't know how long they've been in existence?  Somebody will know!

Jill
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: Yoz on Friday 18 March 05 21:38 GMT (UK)
Paul,
If you can remeber where you bought it from it might be worth looking into the area for a club of some sort.

I am intrigued to why the man in the chair looks as though he's got jimmies on but I would imagine they are more day clothes than anything else, bit odd though.
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: Arranroots on Friday 18 March 05 21:47 GMT (UK)
The badges seem to be the only uniform factor in their dress: ties, waistcoats - or not- and jackets all vary.

They are all past the first flush of youth.

There seems to be a bit of a nose thing going on with the family at the front!  All very similar apart from the lady with the koala.

I get the impression they are the hosts and I agree with Jill, the hedge looks British!!
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: Paul E on Friday 18 March 05 21:48 GMT (UK)
I'm blowed if I can remember where I bought it!

If it was a photo of a group of men then I, too, would go with the idea of some sporting club or something similar.  Its the family (if it IS a family) at the front that adds a mystery to the whole thing.  Unless they're all gardeners or something like that!

What about the period?  There's nothing on the back to indicate the age, but I was guessing maybe 1920's.

 ??? ??? ???

Paul

Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: DeComyn on Friday 18 March 05 22:11 GMT (UK)
The style of the ladies dresses suggests it's around 1910-15ish. Also the hems are a little too long for 1920 (although the women weren't neccessarily slavishly following fashions  I'd expect to see their ankles !!!)

But as to who they all are  ??? I think the family are the hosts, but what that makes the men I've no idea  :-[
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: Yoz on Friday 18 March 05 22:28 GMT (UK)
Barbershop choir?

Rotary club?

Laurel hedge benevolent fund organisation?

out of ideas Paul sorry!!!!

where were you 10 years ago?
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: Paul E on Friday 18 March 05 22:37 GMT (UK)

where were you 10 years ago?

Scratching head ...  'may' have been in Garstang near Preston when I bought this ... or Manchester.
Not much help I'm afraid!

I have a definate leaning towards a group of politicians (not in the literal sence, of course!) - Liberals or maybe the Independent Labour Party.  But there's just nothing to pin it on.

Your ideas are starting to get me thinking though!

cheers

Paul
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: Arquebus on Friday 18 March 05 23:59 GMT (UK)
Hi Paul...Well, I had a quick look....Haven't a clue, but a good number of them are wearing lapel badges and some of the ties seem to have a repetitive  motif on them.

Enlarging the Group 4 shot, some of the lapel badges have an extra bit (like a crown) others are plain round.

Enlarging the two rounds much more, I can see a form of a cross in the centre of the round....almost like a 'red cross' shape with the centre square missing......this could be as a result of enlargement (ie pixels) but I don't think so as the shade diffrence is there, albeit faint.

There are about 40 males in the shot, but it's too early to be the current Man U football team!..........are we looking at perhaps 'Round Table' or 'Rotary Club'.....although I am in business myself, I have no involvement with these organisations.

I also think it unlikely to be Masonic....only because the women are present, and surely wouldn't aprons be worn for a relatively formal photo....I don't know, sorry.

Al.
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: Yoz on Saturday 19 March 05 00:13 GMT (UK)
Could be the RAOB if they were active back then...I know women were involved in a very small way when my Dad was a Buff.

Although there's no one with formal regalia...I am just thinking along the lines of Grandmaster was allowed his family in the photo maybe.


Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: indiapaleale on Saturday 19 March 05 01:50 GMT (UK)
Paul,

I think it IS colonial

The hedge is definitley not laurel....look at the full shot and the hedge has gaps in it. Also the leaves are quite large and heart shaped....looks tropical to me.

I think the family in the center are the host of the event. The older gent has WHITE shoes and  trousers...not an English thing ...unless in the colonies!

As far as the lapel pins....with crowns on them.... could be a regimental thing???

I think it may be in Australia or New Zealand

AND...I could be all wet!

Cheers,
Indi









Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: JAP on Saturday 19 March 05 02:30 GMT (UK)
My musings for what they are worth (probably zilch!).

To throw in a curved ball, the lapel badges might be irrelevant - especially as only about half the gents are wearing them and also as they seem to differ in appearance.  They could be - for instance - coronation badge/pins if it's 1901 (when Edward VII acceded), or mourning badges/pins (when Edward VII died) if it's 1910.  (No, that's not as silly as it sounds - I have a portrait photo of my children's Gggpa DALTON in Victoria and he's wearing a lapel badge on a ribbon.  It was only when I took a magnifying glass to it hoping to date the photo that I found that the badge says Edward VII, 1901-1910!).

The family group at the front are the hosts and the gent is dressed informally partly because he is at home, and partly because he is a personage of importance and was trying to dress informally in order to make his guests feel comfortable.  The lady with the teddy bear might be part of the family or might be the sole female of the group - and perhaps she's holding the teddy because the little miss at the front refused to stay still for the photo unless the nice lady held her teddy!  (And what does the lad in the sailor suit have - first I thought it was Papa's stick, then perhaps a hobby horse, then perhaps a hockey stick ...)

What is the group and why are they all dolled up in their three piece suits?  Well, perhaps they thought that was the right thing to wear when invited to take tea with an important personage?  Or perhaps they are going straight on to lectures etc where a suit would be appropriate dress.  Or perhaps they are in the locality for a conference or meeting of some sort and they don't have informal gear with them.  Why all male?  Well, perhaps they were in a male-dominated field (of any sort - academic, business, political, club) - which wouldn't be hard to find at that time!

And  ...  I too could be all wet!!

J

Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: Carmela on Saturday 19 March 05 02:44 GMT (UK)
My guess as to date is June 22, 1911, Coronation of King George V. The badges could be coronation medals which were given out on that day(just a guess, as I can't see them well). The clothes are right for that date, as is the teddy bear. The group of men appear to be working-class,
dressed in their "Sunday best"(usual at the time as poorer people did not own "sports' clothes"), whereas the family in front are wearing the more casual clothes of the upper classes, dressed for a picnic. The little boy is wearing a sailor suit,
just like the one worn by the little Prince of Wales. The teddy bear was a rather new toy in 1911. They were first made in 1902 in the US, Germany soon after, then England.
This looks like an English one(said she, wearing her antiques' dealer's hat), so very expensive at the time (and worth a fortune now).

With so little to go on, it's hard to say, but I am inclined to to guess that the family in front are perhaps the owners of a factory, mine or some large business and the men are the employees, being treated to a celebration on the grounds of the employer's house. I imagine that the workers' families would have been there too, but not included in this picture. There may have been several pictures and this happens to be the one with just the men, lined up for a company picture.
 
Anyway, that is my little scenario. It may be wrong in some ways, but I am pretty sure about the social status of the people and the boss and workers idea seemed like the best
explanation. There could be a lot of other reasons for these people being together. Perhaps someone else can build another story on my coronation theory.
 
I see there have been two more posts since I started this reply
and they cover some of the same ground, but my arthritic fingers
are not up to more typing, so I am posting it "as is".
 
Cheers,
Carmela
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: JAP on Saturday 19 March 05 03:08 GMT (UK)
Carmela,

Glad you posted 'as is' - great minds think alike, eh!

When I started typing, I was about to say that Papa was the mill owner - but then, looking at the photo more and more, I decided that the gents didn't really look like cap-doffing men at t'mill.  They look really comfortable with being where they are and with being photographed.  I have a feeling - based on absolutely nothing - that they might be physicists or newspaper people ....

Well, we shall see - perhaps ...

J
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: Carmela on Saturday 19 March 05 03:43 GMT (UK)
Hi Jap,
I had not thought of businesses like newspapers.. possible,
but physicists? ??? That one really throws me. Must say I don't follow your line of thought there. ::)
Strangely enough, I had lunch with a physicist today and he did'nt look a bit like the chaps in the photograph. ;D
 
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: juddee on Saturday 19 March 05 07:21 GMT (UK)
Could they belong to a horse racing club - the gentleman in front with his family has been elected president and the rest of the men are members.  The badges appear to be different types and are the women wearing some sort of insignia over their left breasts?  The younger of the women is perhaps the nanny.
What is in the hand of the man standing behind the older woman - are they binoculars?

Just supposing  :) :)

Juddee
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: Paul E on Saturday 19 March 05 08:00 GMT (UK)
After your posts, every time I look at the photo now I see some new scenario!

I'm glad for the dating evidence, as this is starting to look like pre-WWI.

Is there a family relationship between the man in the jim-jams and the man sitting third from left, or am I just being fanciful?

Why on earth are the three whicker chairs occupied by men?

I can also see floral button-holes on about half a dozen of the men.

Ah well - perhaps we'll never know who these people are - would be fun to re-unite it with a descendent of someone on the picture, though.

Paul
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: deadants on Saturday 19 March 05 08:17 GMT (UK)
How's this for a wild guess. http://tinyurl.com/4vowc


deadants
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: Paul E on Saturday 19 March 05 08:23 GMT (UK)
What a great site deadants!

(I particularly like the fact that it indicates their 'sexual orientation' :o)

On the same theme, therefore,
2nd row, 8th from right? 
http://www.nndb.com/people/969/000024897/
Looks like he may only have had one tie, too!

Paul
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: Bethan on Saturday 19 March 05 10:25 GMT (UK)
They could be a touring male voice choir,that was very common in the early 1900s,The people in the front could be the local dignitaries.             Bethan
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: Jane Masri on Saturday 19 March 05 18:10 GMT (UK)
Why the teddy?  Anything to do with toy makers of the period?  A group photo of the boss & employees? Although it does have a kind od 'club' feel to it. Someone who is into collectable teddies might be able to identify it

Jane
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: percy on Thursday 12 May 05 17:39 BST (UK)

From the little boy's sailor suit and the ladies' dress and hats, I think the photo dates 1910/1912.

Percy
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: alcrighton on Thursday 12 May 05 20:28 BST (UK)
I may be toatlly off the mark but H G Wells was a founding member of the Fabian Society, the forerunner to the Labour Party and Ramsey McDonald was the first Labour Prime Minister.  Could that be Keir Hardy an the right (as you look at the photo) at the back (the one that looks like he's standing on a box)?  There were 29 Labour MPs elected in the 1906 election - maybe them and some of their supporters?

Allan
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: Paul E on Thursday 12 May 05 21:37 BST (UK)
Thanks Allan

The only image I can remember of Keir Hardie is of a white-haired chappie.

I would LIKE this to be a group photograph of something like the ILP, but it may be wishful thinking on my part!

cheers

Paul
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: Paul E on Thursday 12 May 05 21:54 BST (UK)
Unless anyone thinks the fellow in the front row (to the right of the teddy bear) is ...

http://www.cowlingweb.co.uk/local_hisoty_information/philip_snowden.html
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: alcrighton on Thursday 12 May 05 22:06 BST (UK)
Paul,

Would it be worth enlarging the part of the picture of "the man standing on a box"?  I tried to attach some photos of Keir Hardy but I couldn't get this to work today but if you Google for images of Keir Hardy you can see him before and after he became a white haired chappie - always with a bushy beard though, just like "the man standing on a box".

Cheers,

Al
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: Paul E on Thursday 12 May 05 22:17 BST (UK)
Hi allan

(Lets hope he is standing on a box!)

I've e-mailed someone from the HG Wells Society to ask them to look at this thread  and put us out of our misery.  If I get the chance to rescan the photo I will do so.
I found some photos of Keir Hardie on Goole and yes, I agree its a possibility.

Maybe this was a meeting of the 1917 Labour 'Look-alikee' Association? :)

cheers

Paul
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: Paul E on Thursday 12 May 05 22:34 BST (UK)
Keir Hardie seems to have died 1915.
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: alcrighton on Thursday 12 May 05 23:29 BST (UK)
Quote
Posted by: Paul E  Posted on: Today at 22:34:49 
Insert Quote 
Keir Hardie seems to have died 1915. 

So he would definitely have been a white haired chappie by the date of the photograph determined by the fashion experts.

I found a photo of the 1910 Labour Representative Committee but I can't tie up any faces with your photo.

Al

ps It appears that they are watching a tennis match being played across the floor of the House of Commons.

pps The guy on the extreme left looks suspiciously like Lenin :o
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: Paul E on Friday 13 May 05 07:20 BST (UK)
Thanks for that Allan - another dream cruelly dashed! :)

Back to square one!

cheers

Paul
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: Nessie on Friday 13 May 05 08:41 BST (UK)
Ever since I first saw this photo the one thing that seemed out of place was the teddy bear. if it had been held by a child it wouldn't have niggled, but it must have some significence.
So searching about I found that the first teddy was made in England in 1908 by the J.K. Farneii company in Acton. He had a son and a daughter who carried on the business which also fits in with the children in the photo. Could this be a firms gathering?
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: Paul E on Friday 13 May 05 13:16 BST (UK)
Its certainly worth looking at Nessie!

I'll have to do a bit of googling I think.

best wishes

Paul
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: alcrighton on Friday 13 May 05 21:30 BST (UK)
Here's a bear from 1913 looking remarkably like the one in the photo.  He's a bit the worse for wear but I guess if we got the rest of the group together again today for a photo they'd look a little different ;D
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: Su on Saturday 14 May 05 09:30 BST (UK)
Paul
Was he a cloth cap manufacturer ?  These could be his salesmen, and once a year the Boss declares a cloth cap free day  ;D  The badges could be awarded for salesman of the month  ::)

Su
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: celia on Sunday 15 May 05 02:49 BST (UK)
I think the photo was taken in India.The lady on the right is Indian as is the child.The man on left Obviously her husband wearing cotton Indian trousers.At a guess i would say he was an important person,living in a large house, working maybe for the English government.He is so relaxed in his own back yard and obviously rich.So could  afford landscaped gardens and British hedges.  Hope you find out one day what "The bit of a Do" was

Celia
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: Melaniejoy on Sunday 15 May 05 03:05 BST (UK)
I was thinking RAC but not a car in sight and the badges of some of the members are more rounded than the RAC crown.
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: sparrett on Sunday 15 May 05 03:43 BST (UK)
The woman in the checked dress is a servant.  She is the children's nanny and this is indicated to the viewer by the fact that she holds the teddy.  In those times objects were often used in photos to denote status or profession for posterity -eg Often a book in hand in portraits to denote literacy etc.

The fact that she appears to be coluored also supports the servant idea for the times.  Her clothing is a little too "loud" for upper class family member's taste.
It is possible that she is a New Zealander.

The photo has been sent back to uk to show "How well we are dong in the Colonies" Sue
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: ndedross on Sunday 15 May 05 12:42 BST (UK)
Interesting that no-one is wearing a beard? I'd think it might be taken between the Wars and colonial. There seem to be quite a few wicker chairs (which could have been imported to England, or could be the 'local' furniture).
Is this some sort of Civil Service staff - like a British Consulate? - lined up for their 'official' annual photo. Hence no domestic staff apart from Nanny.

Nigel.
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: Paul E on Monday 16 May 05 08:13 BST (UK)
Hi celia and nigel

I must admit my original thought was 'colnial' but then I was seduced by ideas of labour history!

As for you, Su - shame on you maligning a favourite headgear of mine! :) :) :)

My guess is that, in about three month's time, someone will join Rootschat, find this thread and tell us 'That's my grandfather!' :)

thanks for all your ideas!

Paul

Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: redcrystal on Friday 15 July 05 00:51 BST (UK)
Grrrr!! This is driving me wild!! I am sure I have seen this before. But just the four people in the front. Like a cropped version. I am going to get my mother to have a look and see if she recognises it.

My thoughts...
Lady with white hat and cane, is wife of man with the little girl in between his legs, boy is theirs too.
Lady in white appears to have a bag on her right (our left) so if it belongs to her we could take a guess that they are not at home.
Dark girl... Now I even jumped straight to the thought of servant girl/nanny, but there is a couple of things wrong with that..
First. (in ALL my British India photos) Servants/Maids/Nanny's are not included in the photo. Esp a big event like this was. Usually you see the staff in the background. Strangely most of mine seem to be at the back right of the photos. (the peoples left).
Second. This girl although clashing with others tastes, is too well dressed. The hat and dress are in great condition. I have never seen any of my [India] families servants dressed half that well! (I don't know in England what servants looked/dressed like)
Third. (I have 30++ photos) With some photos(all originals) some of the people look Indian(dark), but then in others you can clearly see that they are white. This darking effect happens a lot when the woman is wearing a hat.
Fourth. Just near the teddy's ear, she has either one of those badges on, or a nurses time piece...
My conclusion is that she is the wife of the man sitting on the far   right of her (our left). He could be the bro of the lady in white.  Pitty I can't see her eyes or I could make a better guestimate.
I have based my guesses that this photo is taken in India.

Liz
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: PrueM on Friday 15 July 05 03:18 BST (UK)
I've only today started reading this thread and I must say it's fascinating!
For what it's worth, here's my two cents' worth:

Date:  around 1915 (going by the women's tops - low necklines - and large brimmed hats).  The lady on the left is wearing more modern clothes than the lady on the right. 

Location:  no idea! 

Occasion:  employees' gathering with the boss's family.   

I think the family group at front is the boss's family.  The fellow to the left of Mother looks like a brother of the boss.  The lady at right is the nanny (thus the teddy bear).  The boy's sailor suit is difficult to use as dating evidence as they were worn right through the Victorian era and beyond.

Maybe these men worked for The Boss, and had just enlisted for active service during WW1?  Or it could just be a company picnic - but in that case I would have thought that the men's families would have been invited too.  Perhaps they were, but they just weren't in this photo.

It reminds me of a photograph from my own family - the Swan brothers had a large sawmill enterprise in Sydney, NSW in the late 19th-early 20th centuries.  This photo is of one of their annual employee functions in 1911. 

Prue

P.S.  I don't think the nanny at right is Asian or Maori - if you compare her skin tone to the lady at left it is almost identical.  She definitely has dark features though, but then again so does my very Anglo-Celtic father-in-law!
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: goggy on Friday 15 July 05 03:39 BST (UK)
Just a pebble in the pond,the badge needs clarifying,they do look colonial,era looks to be late 20,s-early thirties,,thats no Koala,the Lady dont look Asian to me,what sort of foliage,are the badges of the Australian Returned Services League,is the man in 'jammies' having visitors in a hospital???
Having dropped an assortment of pebbles into the formerly calm waters I will now get back to my boiled tripe+onions!!!
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: manmack on Monday 25 July 05 13:25 BST (UK)
if it was a club or lodge,dont you think the badges would all be the same???,they look like old comrades badges to me,ww1 vets,maybe thats why the kid is in his ww1 sailors uniform,they were around just after the war as well,mack
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: Paul E on Monday 25 July 05 20:37 BST (UK)
Thanks Mack - something more to ponder!

Paul
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: pixieleigh on Sunday 31 July 05 10:27 BST (UK)
hello all,

just a comment, i think the seated members are all related. Someone suggested parents kids and a brother and wife. i think that sounds about right.
the younger boy on the right appears to have similar facial features to the others. i would suggest the the woman in the checked dress is still a relative somehow. i think it unlikely that a servant, even a respected nanny/nurse would be in a picture like this.

if it was a family picnic, sure, but this looks like a work function and a servant woudn't be there. perphaps she could be an unmarried relative???

other than that i am thinking before 1920's the hats remind me of the suffragette era, definitely before the 1920's clothes.

i would possibly agree with an "out of europe" location as well. India or Aussie would be my Guesses.

anyway thats my 2cents. what a challenge trying to find the origins of one photo you know nothing about.

godd luck happy hunting
sarah
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: redcrystal on Tuesday 16 January 07 09:09 GMT (UK)
Hi just wondering if you ever had any luck with this photo? I was thinking that you might want to post it at http://www.deadfred.com/ never know, someone that get's the news letter might be able to help...
Cheers
Liz
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: Paul E on Tuesday 16 January 07 09:49 GMT (UK)
THanks, Liz - that's a great site - many thanks!

Paul
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: trish251 on Tuesday 16 January 07 11:15 GMT (UK)
I did like the JK Farnell story & some of the history indicates that his children (Agnes and Henry) started the toy manufacturing after the death of their father in 1897, with Agnes being the original maker of same. So could the folks at the front be the children/grandchildren - would the older woman be old enough to be their mother?  Henry far left, Agnes far right - Agnes husband (just in from playing cricket) next to Agnes. If other lady is younger than I think - wife of Henry perhaps.

There was discussion of a black bear made after the sinking of the titanic - the bear does look very dark in comparison to others of that time.

Trish
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: sallysmum on Tuesday 16 January 07 12:06 GMT (UK)
Anyways, I think that's just a plain old child's teddy bear on that Lady's lap.

That is no ordinary teddy - I believe it to be a Steiff teddy!  I've been trying to trawl the net for such a bear but could only come up with this replica which dates it from 1906

http://www.ashbybears.com/acatalog/1906_steiff_teddy_bears.html

I don't think it is the titanic bear - that one was very dark
Sallysmum
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: Paul E on Tuesday 16 January 07 13:50 GMT (UK)
Now, what is the name for the branch of genealogy that uses teddy bears to date photographs?  ;D ;D ;D ;D  Whatever it is, it's excellent!  I could accept 1906 as a date for this photo, couldn't you?

Cheers

Paul
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: cazza59 on Tuesday 16 January 07 14:22 GMT (UK)
Er, that is no Koala...it's a teddy bear.  This is my theory, perhaps the seated family is a Governor and his wife...the 'Asian' lady the child's governess and the men standing around are elected officials of some British colony.  :P

Caz

Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: cazza59 on Tuesday 16 January 07 14:29 GMT (UK)
I'm losing it, I didn't realise there were 5 pages of posts before mine lol...have to go back to the beginning and start reading....

Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: Christopher on Friday 09 May 08 20:13 BST (UK)
Could be a gathering to celebrate a taxidermist's work on the club mascot!

If its a 'men only' club I'm pretty certain it isn't a masonic lodge and I don't get a feeling of acadamia either.   What about something like Round Table - I think they wear lapel badges but don't know how long they've been in existence?  Somebody will know!

Jill

Hello Jill,

If the photo was taken in the early 1900s then the Round Table can be ruled out.
It was founded by a twenty seven year old Rotarian named Louis Marchesi in 1927.  www.roundtable.co.uk/viewpublicarticle.php?article_no=234

It might be too early for a Rotary Club as well. It was founded by a Chicago lawyer,
Paul P. Harris, in February 1905. 

Could the guys be the members of a touring sports club plus the club officials? 

Maybe the ladies are wives of local dignitaries. 

This next link seems to indicate that the MCC played in Australia in 1906. www.rl1908.com/articles/ashes.htm The guy with the white V neck and the guy on his right hand side (the one on his left looking at the picture) appear to be wearing a tie with a crest. Could they be wearing the MCC Crested tie? http://tinyurl.com/6gwcv7


Christopher
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: PaulaToo on Friday 09 May 08 21:14 BST (UK)
Pretty certain that's a Steiff teddy bear.
It probably belongs to the little girl, but she was mucking about, and it was taken away so that the photo could be taken.
What ever is it that the little boy is holding...is it a walking stick, does he have a handicap? Or is it another toy?
Are the couple in the middle the granparents of the children and the other seated pair the children's parents?
Is the older gent in Colonial costume, PJs, or looking at his shoes, does he play cricket?
And why are most of the gentlemen wearing Steiff buttons?
Well, they could be Steiff buttons....couldn't they?

Just rambling, bit tongue in cheek, but what a smashing and interesting photo.
I'm glad I took the time to have a look at it.
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: Rabbit B on Friday 09 May 08 22:12 BST (UK)
Hi Everybody,

If it were not for the womens dresses I would have suggested the early British Legion badges, unless there was some sort of pre cursor. 

Ex Army chums visiting a sick or convalecent colleague, but the Legion was not formed until 1921.

Prue,  do you know?  If the grander ladies still wore dresses like that at that time.  I love the Steiff bear!  What a smasher!

Rabbit B  ;D
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: PrueM on Friday 09 May 08 22:59 BST (UK)
Hi Rabbit  :)
Talk about a blast from the past!  ;D

I would think that the grander the lady, the more likely she would want to be seen in the latest fashions, so to me, this photo is early WW1 period.  I'm sticking by my earlier guess that this is an employees' picnic/gathering  :)  But I don't suppose we will ever know  :-\

Cheers
Prue
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: PaulaToo on Friday 09 May 08 23:18 BST (UK)
Posh folk did hold onto longer hemlines for a while, just to show that they were posh and could afford the cloth.
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: Rabbit B on Friday 09 May 08 23:23 BST (UK)
Hi PrueM,

Not that much of past!  But I will of course defer to your expertise in these matters!

Hi Paula,

My Gran was not posh but her hemlines were long in that era, which is why I suggested it,  maybe like me she just wasn't into fashion!

Rabbit B  ;D
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: Christopher on Saturday 10 May 08 01:17 BST (UK)
Why the teddy?  Anything to do with toy makers of the period?  A group photo of the boss & employees? Although it does have a kind od 'club' feel to it. Someone who is into collectable teddies might be able to identify it

Jane

I'm inclined to think that if it's not a team of sportmen then the guy in the casuals at the front is a manufacturer. The other guys would be the sales force, senior employees and directors of the company. They may have nothing to do with toys ... the bear may belong to the little girl.

Since there's a problem identifying the picture post it to the following address (send by recorded delivery) ...

Image from the Past,
Your Family Tree,
30, Monmouth Street,
Bath. BA1 2BW

YFT can only accapt original photographs and not every photo can be analysed and printed in the magazine.

Christopher

Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: pinefamily on Saturday 10 May 08 01:41 BST (UK)
Having read through the various thoughts already posted, I'd like to throw in my two cents worth ( as a "colonial" myself).
I tend to agree with the rootschatters and think it is an employee group shot, with the "benevolent" employer and his family (and nanny?) in the front. As to the era, I will leave that to the more experienced among us.

Darren
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: rancegal on Saturday 10 May 08 09:04 BST (UK)
I can't help thinking that the 'dark lady' may be Indonesian, Filipino , Thai, Burmese, or somewhere round there. Her face is not the right shape for Indian.
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: Rabbit B on Saturday 10 May 08 11:05 BST (UK)
Hi Everyone,

I have just had another look at the picture, I had to laugh because I was sure that the man in the middle was in pyjamas and a dressing gown!  ;D  Of course he is wearing white trousers  :-[  My eyes were very tired last night! ::)

Had another look at the dark lady, she is very well dressed for a servant? 

Rabbit B  8)  ;D
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: IgorStrav on Saturday 10 May 08 11:54 BST (UK)
Isn't the "dark" lady in a very neat and tidy gingham checked uniform type of dress, indicating perhaps she is the nanny?
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: Lincsbabe on Saturday 10 May 08 12:32 BST (UK)
What a great thread. I think the man with the white trousers on is wearing a smoking jacket..  Lincsbabe ;D
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: PaulaToo on Saturday 10 May 08 13:24 BST (UK)
Blazer? Has he got cricket shoes and trousers?
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: Paul Caswell on Saturday 10 May 08 13:53 BST (UK)
My 2c,

Observations

The eyes and nose of the main man and woman are so similar I get the feeling they may be brother and sister rather than husband and wife. The dark-skinned lady shares the nose.

There seem to be several people that look almost exactly the same. Could there be twins in this group? There seems to be less variety in facial features than I would expect. The narrow bridge of the nose and the 'panda' eyes seems to be quite common among all of them.

The background vegetation looks like fir trees on left and right (one christmas style and one more rounded) and the rest looks like ivy.

There are six straight-backed chairs, perhaps dining room chairs. There are two metal chairs with unusual design and two fine wicker chairs.

Apart from the family and the two older men standing behind the lady with the white hat, they all seem to be of very similar age.

The surface they are on does not look like grass.

Thoughts

You need a special camera to take panoramic shots like this.

The presence of the wicker chairs suggests the tropics. The fir trees suggest not the tropics. Perhaps we are in the garden of a largeish home with a veranda. The wicker chairs would be from the veranda, the dining chairs from the dining room.

The two metal chairs are interesting. The seat seems to be made of bands of metal with gaps between them. I wonder if anyone who knows chairs would recognise them.

The dining chairs look like they have no arm rest, or at least a very sloping one. The legs are at an angle as if they are folding chairs but I don't think they fold. They are almost church pew chairs. Strange design.

I keep coming back to an army buddies reunion of some sort. This would explain the similar ages with the few exceptions.

It just feels colonial to me. The hem line rose much later in the colonies. I have a picture of me as a small child (1960s) in Africa and my mother's dress is still ankle length but very light material like we see here.

Do let us know what the H.G.Wells society say. That would be a lovely find.

Paul
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: Christopher on Saturday 10 May 08 17:45 BST (UK)
I wonder if the guys are connected with the insurance business.

Possibly they are the "men from the Pru" at their annual conference.
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: chinakay on Saturday 10 May 08 22:48 BST (UK)
Great thread!

Paul, the only suggestion I can make is something we have had some success with on the Photo Restoration board. Place the photo back on the scanner, draw a box around the best of the lapel badges and scan it as high as your scanner will go...3200dpi, 4800 or whatever. Post the result without any compression unless you have to get it under 500kb.

Sometimes you can see results with this. You could try it with the "nurse's watch" oon the lady on the right, as well.

Cheers,
China
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: Keziahemm on Saturday 10 May 08 23:02 BST (UK)
I was reading  through this thread and thought it sounded familiar, looked at the date of the first post 18 March 05  ::)

Wonder if Paul E. ever got a reply from the H.G. Wells society?

Susan  :)
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: PaulaToo on Saturday 10 May 08 23:22 BST (UK)
Wouldn't have thought so, or we would have heard.
Well, I never, but it goes to show, RootsChatters don't give up easily :)
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: Lydart on Saturday 10 May 08 23:37 BST (UK)
I haven't seen this thread before, but I agree with those who think it looks 'colonial' ... certainly in highlands Africa there were dark hedges like the one in the background.  But my feeling is it could be Malaysia ?  Far East somewhere ?  The boy in the sailor suit and the presence of the little girls ayah seem to point that way. 

I do hope Paul gets a message to see what people think, for I know he sadly left RC a while ago ....
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: little meg on Saturday 10 May 08 23:57 BST (UK)
my thoughts. . .

firstly you cannot judge the place by the vegetation, wherever the English travelled they tried to create a bit of 'home' wherever they went.  Planting out their little rose gardens, hedges etc.
The same goes with furniture.

I agree that the fellow at the front, is wearing a smoking jacket and therefore believe the photo was taken on his property. He is the only one so casually dressed.

I do not think the lass in the gingham dress is asian but more european, but do think she is probably the nanny, looking after the teddy for the young child.

Margaret
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: Tephra on Sunday 11 May 08 01:12 BST (UK)



All the family at the front look Indian to me........!!!


Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: Christopher on Sunday 11 May 08 01:18 BST (UK)
Observations

The posts stopped in July 2005 and restarted in January 2007 when they stopped again
to be restarted in May this year. Maybe we can solve this puzzle this year 8)
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: chinakay on Sunday 11 May 08 01:19 BST (UK)
I did notice that it's a very old thread, but hadn't noticed Paul's status as "guest"...I have never seen that before..
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: Emmeline on Sunday 11 May 08 02:04 BST (UK)
I popped in the other day and thought -  ' Hey, I've been here before but a long time ago ' - would be wonderful to solve this one.

Is Paul E (Guest) the great fellow who used to set the Caption Competitions ?
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: Christopher on Sunday 11 May 08 02:20 BST (UK)
I think the guy in the wicker armchair (wearing a lighter coloured suit than the other guys) and the woman who is holding the teddy are husband and wife ... the other couple are the grandparents of the children.

Christopher 
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: Emmeline on Sunday 11 May 08 02:26 BST (UK)
That's what I've been thinking Christopher - now where do we go from here  ???
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: Lydart on Sunday 11 May 08 09:01 BST (UK)
Yes Emmeline, that is he !   His brother, Big Col also left ...
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: PaulaToo on Sunday 11 May 08 09:28 BST (UK)
I was testing the Grandparents theory in message 64.
If it was just a picture of the seated four, I'm sure that's what it would look like....
It's all those blokes....who the heck are they?
Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: Emmeline on Sunday 11 May 08 09:29 BST (UK)
Thank you Lydart. Good  to have him back if only as a  welcome Guest......

Title: Re: Mystery group photo ... views welcome
Post by: trystan on Sunday 11 May 08 11:31 BST (UK)
Moderator Comment:

As the originator of this topic is no longer on RootsChat, the topic has been locked.