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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Cork => Topic started by: ejam on Saturday 13 February 10 18:23 GMT (UK)
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Robert Dunlop Howard was my g-grandfather. Married to Emily Terry they brought up a very musical family, he being the leader of the Cork Orchestra and a teacher of the violin. Apart from a few mentions in newspaper articles about concert performances and advertisements for tuition I can find no record of his existence. His death also is seemingly unrecorded from newspapers I have had internet access to, but I believe it to have been between 1915 and 1920, his being present at one wedding then deceased at the next.
I believe the Cork Examiner records can be accessed in the Cork Library: would anybody be able to look up his death for me?
Regards, Alan.
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Hiya ejam
dont know whether you have been in roots web and entered Robert Dunlop Howard ,it does not give you his death but it gives you your ancesters which have been researched for you, if you havent already the information Cheers Jules
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Hi Jules,
thanks for that, yes I have full information above and below Robert Dunlop in my tree, it is his elusive death (and his wife's for that matter) which I seek.
Thanks, Alan.
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you didnt mentioned approx. year's of birth for either Emily or Robert.. but there's only one death of an Emily Howard listed in Co. Cork, and that is :
Name: Emily Howard
Registration district: Cork
Record type: Death
quarter and year: Oct - Dec 1909
Age: 51 (est birth year: 1858)
Volume: 5 / Page: 78
There are a few Robert Howard listings that could be possible, but none with a match to the middle name - but this would not always be recorded on the cert or index.
Shane
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Hi Shane,
yes that's a correct date for Emily, I forgot we recently found that via a contact in Dublin. Robert Dunlop remains a mystery.
Many thanks for that,
regards,
Alan
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As far as I know the Newspaper archive (http://www.corkcoco.ie/co/web/Cork%20County%20Council/Departments/Community%20&%20Enterprise/Library%20&%20Arts%20Service/Services/Newspaper%20Archives) in Cork Library is on microfilm, and not indexed by names etc... so finding a death in a 5 year timeframe could be very time consuming.
It would be unusual for a death not to be registered... maybe Robert listing is mis-indexed or he died outside the Cork area ?
have you looked at the details for the death registered in the Tralee district in 1915 ?
Name: Robert HOWARD
Registration district: Tralee
Record type: Death
quarter / year: Jan - Mar 1915
Age: 85 (est birth year: 1830)
Volume: 5 / Page: 422
p.s. are you certain he was actually at the weddings you mentioned ... or was he just listed as the father of the bride/groom ?
p.p.s have you found Robert on the 1911 census ?
Shane
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Hi Shane,
I forgot to say that Robert Dunlop was born 1850 in Woolwich London. His father, Robert James was Trumpet Major in the Royal Artillery and probably left for Cork around 1858 to take up a job at the music college, or at the barracks in Cork. He died in 1886 age 73 as a professor of music.
The dates 1915-1920 are adjustable, particularly as the 1911 census shows a daughter as head of family , but the house they were in was still named as owned by RD.
It is possible that he was away in England for 1911 but of course we are still waiting for that one. Not as advanced as Ireland! The Tralee death I had seen but he was too old.
I notice you have interests in Leeds. I am just outside Leeds and have the full burials disc if that is of use to you for a look-up.
Regards, Alan.
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Hi Alan,
Just wondering if you got a death cert for Emily and if you did who was the informant? How do you know Robert was alive then (1909)?
As mentioned by a previous responder there is a large section on ancestry.com where there is information. Edward Dunlop Howard married Eileen Rachel Palliser and there is a contact email address for one of the Palliser family. They might have some information about Robert. As Edward died on 13 Feb 1976 the informant on his death cert might be able to give you some info. You don't say which of Roberts children was one of your parents so it is hard for us to piece things together.
Where did Robert's family live at the time of the 1911 census? If he was alive and not listed could he have been away with the Army? (Was he a musician in the Army?). Could you possible give us the address.
I could certainly look up an Examiner at the County library but without a date of death it would be impossible. All of the papers are on microfiche and in date order.
Robert D Howard seemed to have only two sons Edward and Robert Christopher - did Robert C stay in Cork too?
If I knew where they were living in the City I could go to the nearest church to check the records - however as we don't know where they lived this is not possible. Another thing - were they Catholics or Protestants? This would have a bearing on which church would be relevant.
If you could come up with this info we might be able to get some extra info for you.
Regards
Mary
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found a listing for Robert in Slater's directory 1894 :
Cork City section - School of Music, 8 Morrison's Quay
Chairman : Richard Pigott Beamish, D.L.
7 professors listed, including : Violin & Viola, Robert D. Howard
his residence is listed at 21 Frankfort Tce, Summerhill south, Douglas
He's mentioned in Guy's Cork almanac of 1891 - see link (http://www.corkpastandpresent.ie/places/streetandtradedirectories/1891citycountyalmanacanddirectoryguys/1891pages7to83/GuysCorkAlmanac1891Pages77%20to%2083.pdf) see 2nd page (78), lower right
..also listed in the 1907 edition see link (http://www.corkpastandpresent.ie/places/streetandtradedirectories/1907citycountyalmanacanddirectoryguys/1907pages80to159/GuysCorkAlmanac1907Pages80%20to%2087.pdf)
The 1913 directory shows a Signor F Grossie in the position Robert formerly occupied see - link (http://www.corkpastandpresent.ie/places/streetandtradedirectories/1913citycountyalmanacanddirectoryguys/1913pages94to185/GuysCorkAlmanac1913Pages100%20to%20107.pdf)
is this the family on the 1911 census ? 83 Hibernian Buildings, Cork (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Cork/Cork_No__5_Urban__part_of_/Hibernian_Buildings/399007/)
... there's a music connection and the head of the household listed on the Form B1 (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001889717/) is, as you mentioned earlier, Robert Howard... which suggests that he's alive., but absent from the house on the night of the census.
I see no sign of him on the Irish 1911 Census. Maybe he will show up on the English 1911 census somewhere, and he died near to that location. If so that might be the clue to help find his death on freebmd.
The 1901 Irish census may provide further clues when that becomes available online.
Shane
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Hi Mary and Shane,
yes I have a certificate for Emily (attached) but not sure if it is correct, as the address is not one I know. Also shows her as a widowand her age would have been 56 in 1909.
The family was indeed at Hibernian Buildings, earlier they had been at 23 Summerhill South. It is possible that RD had invested in property as there seem to be a number of addresses coming up: 21 Frankfurt Terrace and another, which has disappeared from my files, from where he was advertising lessons.
I have the Guy's links thanks to a day's subscription to the newspaper site, and the 1901 census, gained from my contact in Dublin, shows the whole family together. Obviously something had happened prior to 1913 for him to have disappeared from the music college's listings.
Just looked up the 1911 English census....only two Roberts and neither correct, and no Emily.
Robert and Emily had five daughters and three sons. William Robert died in 1910 aged 29. They were all musical, the daughters playing the hotels in their own band,, one playing piano in the picture houses, teaching piano and generally having a good time! Robert Christopher went to London as a piano tuner and Edward Dunlop was my grandfather, who could play piano really well but only using the black keys(?)
The family was protestant and Robert and Emily were married in Cork registry office. Later they used St. Nicholas for christenings.
Many thanks for your searchings, you seem to be very well connected!
Regards, alan.
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your're not allowed post full certs here on rootschat..
crop the image to show just the section(s) of interest
p.s. Emily states she's a widow.. so Robert died pre-1909 ?
Shane
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sorry about the certificate, would crop or remove but cannot find how to do that.
Yes, it says widow and that's why I thought it was wrong, having an entry as father in daughter Sarah's marriage certificate in 1815. That marriage was in a catholic church in Newcastle on Tyne and he did not sign as witness so probably did not attend.
How do I remov/crop the image?
Alan.
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to remove the image click the modify button on the top right of your post ..the look for the attachments section towards the bottom. I can post a cropped version showing the address etc if you wish
Unfortunately Emily died in the infirmary, so the informant is an employee of the infirmary rather than a family member, so difficult to be 100% certain that it's the correct person. I would not worry about the age being a year out - I've seen deaths cert much further off than that..
correction - I thought the age read 57 ... looks more like 51 now
Shane
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Hello everyone,
There is a Daniel Joseph Hegarty, 60 yrs and family living Summerhill in 1911- he is a banker. Ignore- I thought it said J -it says F for Daniel's name ::)
The death certificate says he is the occupier (of that address which I can't read beyond 2 Turret site? ) and seems to indicate that Emily was a housekeeper.
Does the age of this Emily fit with the age in 1901?
Where are the other daughters in 1911? Could Robert or Emily be with them- if this is perhaps not that Emily?
Lastly, could a funeral be traced for this Emily and would the church record give any other information? (or gravestone?)
best wishes
heywood
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based on the unusual 'g' in Hegarty I wonder if the 2nd part of the address might be Mulgrave Road
the middle initial for Daniel looks like an F to me - cf the F for female
Shane
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I agree re the name - I just got carried away with Summerhill ::)
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I can only find a Mulgrave Place in 1911 - I wonder if the 'Turret' should read 'Terrace'.
Signor Grossi is a professor of Music in 1911 census.
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That's a great help and Shane is coming up trumps as usual.
I wont't be able to do much until Wednesday but I will go to the County Library then and maybe the City Library to see if they have anything on the Howards the musical family.
Will be on again then.
Mary
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That's great Mary. You would imagine that there would be something about his death somewhere.
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I am beginning to think that both Robert & Emily moved away from Cork sometime between 1907 and 1911... maybe to England?
Shane
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Hi Heywood and thanks Shane, certificate removed.
Robert had a series of female marriages: Emily Rebecca 1909, Rose Blanche 1910, Margaret Lillian 1914, Sarah Maude Victoria 1915 then Gladys Marion in 1936.
Unfortunately the certificates I have are for Emily and Sarah and not in between. I must do some work to determine where these were and try to obtain certificates. He was noted as deceased on Edward Dunlop's wedding certificate in 1920.
It would be great to trace funerals etc. to find more information but I have drawn a blank with this (original post.) No luck with cemeteries either.
Regards, Alan.
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unfortunately marriage certs dont always specifically state if the father is alive at the time or not... many case the name is included without any note when the father is deceased.
attached are the two sections we've been discussing...
I think maybe Daniel F. Hegarty might be occupant of the Infirmary.. i.e. doctor or administrator ?
Shane
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Signor Grossi seems to have arrived in Cork in 1902 - see : Music in Ireland 1952 (http://www.archive.org/stream/musicinireland001425mbp/musicinireland001425mbp_djvu.txt) (scanned at archive.org)
'... Outside Dublin, one must mention the work of Ferruccio Grossi in Cork, where he trained a generation of string players between 1902 and 1928,...'
maybe Robert left his post for some reason around that time, and so not long after the 1901 census return.
Shane
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HI!i'm Michele, from Milan, Italy. The brother of my granmother was Ferruccio Grossi, that left Italy in the beginning of '900. He was musicist. I have read your post and i think that you talk abaut him. My family don't have any notice about him, because we live in italy. I hope to try some information of his life and his descendants. Someone can help me? Sorry for my very bad english..
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hi Michele, and welcome to Rootschat !
some information on the Irish 1911 Census on the Grossi family that might be of interest to you - Grossi family, Cork (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Cork/Cork_No__6_Urban/South_Mall/394330/)
You will see Ferruccio, his wife Marie and their son Oscar living in Cork City where Sig. Grossi was a music professor in the School of Music.
Shane
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Hi Shane and welcome to Michele.
You may not have heard from Mary recently....she has been very busy, successfully finding all there is to know about Robert Dunlop Howard. At the time that Signor Rossi came to Cork, my great grandfather was teaching orchestral classes, violin and viola, whilst acting as both leader and conductor of the Cork Orchestra at the Royal Opera House and with with local bands, particularly the'No.1 Barrack Street Band.' He unfortunately met a premature end in 1907 when he suffered a fit and cardiac arrest before an evening meal. I have confirmed detail of where he and his family were living and working and am now able to build a picture of the life of my direct ancestors.
Success!
Many thanks, then, to Mary and to all others who contributed to my quest.
Regards, Alan.
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Alan,
Thank you so much for your appreciation. Am delighted to be able to help.
Mary
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Well done Mary ;D
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Shane, Thank you for your information about brother of my great grandmother, mr Ferrucio Grossi. Is fantastic discover the anonymous past of my family!!How i can try other information about his life and his discendent? When and where he dead? where lived his family and his son..? From Italy is very difficult try this informations..
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Shane, Thank you for your information about brother of my great grandmother, mr Ferrucio Grossi. Is fantastic discover the anonymous past of my family!!How i can try other information about his life and his discendent? When and where he dead? where lived his family and his son..? From Italy is very difficult try this informations..
Ferruccio and his family seem to arrived in Ireland around 1907, to take up his new position as professor of Violin in the School of Music. His address on the 1911 census shows that he lived in Cork City at South mall which is in the centre of the city and a short walk from the school of music. Of his time before that it seems that he may have travelled quite a bit - he was born in Egypt, his wife was born in Austria and Oscar, their son, was born in Sweden in about 1898.
Some newspaper articles I saw recently described recitals he staged around Cork city and county where he would perform violin pieces and was accompanied by his wife on the piano.
I dont see very many Grossi records on the Irish Civil Index (http://pilot.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#p=2;t=searchable;c=1408347), which is an index of Irish Births marriages and Deaths. The earliest record I see is a possible death in the Cork area of young girl, who could be a daughter to Ferruccio - Elsa Grossi in Cork in Apr/Jun 1905, age 6. If you wish to find out more about this you could order a death cert which may give some more information on this event.
I dont seen any sign of their son Oscar marrying or births for any more children to Ferruccio and Marie, or their deaths. There is a death in Dublin of of a Mitzi Grossi (age 72) in Dublin, 1947 - not sure if this is connected. There are a couple of Grossi listings (a marriage and a birth)on the index in the 1950s - but I will not post details of possible living people (you can search the index to see these).
I will have a further look and let you know I what I find..
Shane
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Shane, thank you so much for your information!!
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no problem!
was Ferrucio's family originally from the Milan area ?
Shane
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Hi! my family dont' remember when Ferruccio leaved Italy. We know only that he was a musicist, that he married mrs. Mitzi and that one their son died very young. Now, i think that the son was Elsa Grossi, dead in 1905 in Cork. And the wife was Mitzi, dead in 1947 in Dublin. But in census 1911 his wife was Mary, not Mitzi. Is the same person? the birthday is the same, 1875. And Ferruccio and other son Oscar where lived? Where died? probably not in ireland..
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I have copies of Concert programmes from 1882,1879, & 1906 which I got from the helpful staff at the Cork City Library.
By pure coincidence when I went to the library last week to look up RD Howard and incredibly a concert programmes from 1882 was displayed in a glass case showing R. D. Howard as leader of First Violins. This was on display presumably to coincide with the 100th anniversary celebration of the birth of Cork Musical genius Aloys Fleischmann. There is a brilliant exhibition on there at the moment as a tribute to Prof Fleischman. How coincidental is that? I went back this week to see if there were any available with Snr. Grossi and there were two from 1906.
It lists him as being a Conductor, a violinist, and a composer on various programmes. It also listed Madame Grossi as being on Pianoforte. (1906)
I have forwarded one to Ejam already but if you would like me to send you a copy ( photographed as I don't have a scanner!!) send me a PM.
I couldn't put it on this message as it said file too large. It's a pity as more people, I'm sure would like to see them.
Mary
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Mary, you're fantastic!!!tnahmk you for help me!!my PM is (*). I wait your information..
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To Cucho,
I have sent you a pm.
Mary
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Hi, Michele... I've found an obituary on the death of Ferrucio Grossi, in Dublin in 1955.
headline : Signor F. Grossi
date : 1st March 1955
extract : The death has occurred in a Dublin hospital of Signor Ferrugio Gionvanni Grossi, a native of Milan who became one of the best known musical figures in the country... aged over 80...came to Cork in 1902... survived by his son Oscar....
I'll pm full details to you..
Shane
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found a reference to the death registration of Ferruccio in the civil index... his name has been mis-spelt :
Name: Ferruciggo G Grosoi
Registration district: Dublin South
Record type: Death
quarter and year: Jan - Mar 1955
Age: 78 (est birth year: 1877)
Volume: 2 / Page: 452
You could order a death cert using these details - see 2 Minute Introduction to Irish Records (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,442233.0.html)
His son, Oscar seems to have been married by 1955, but I have not found out any details on that.
Shane
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Wow!!!!now i know something about death of Ferruccio!!I see your pm, shane, thank you!!!the article of irish journal is fantastic!!!!
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I am new to this web. Can someone link me to the correct locations.
I am the great-nephew of Ferruchio Grossi, born Alexandria, Egypt. His brother, Walter born Genoa, was my grandfather. I am particularly interested in the Grossi family. My great-grandfather, Arturo, has a business in Leghorn, Italy and Alexandria, Egypt. He may well have been a Turkish Trade Merchant?
Ferruchio has two children, but the little girl, Elsa, died in a house fire in Cork, Ireland, aged 6. Her brother Oscar was born in Sweden. He may have family there. Walter had two girls. The first Elsa Marian, died as a baby from spina-bifida. The second, Louisa Ines, died aged 88 was my mother.
The Grossi family moved to London from Milan, but the parents did not like the London fogs, so they took their daughter Ines, back to Italy. My grandfather moved to Lincoln, UK where I was born, while his brother moved to Cork, then Dublin, but toured Europe, including London and Sweden as a great violinist.
My Italian cousins live in Milan. Walter's neice, Fernanda Masotti has just died at the age of 96 years. Her daughter, Claudia, is married to Professor Elli of Milan. They have 5 children and I believe Michele is the son who speaks English and is keen on family history.
I would love a response.
best regards
Philip aged 75
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Hi Philip,
I have copies of some concert programmes from 1906, where Signor Grossi had many important positions in the Cork Orchestral Union.
The first programme I have is for a concert on March 31st 1906 at the Clarence Hall, ( now the Imperial Hotel on South Mall, Cork). In this programme Signor Grossi played the violin and his wife was listed for pianoforte.
In one for Dec 5th 1906 he was the conductor of a full orchestra of 65 and a selected chorus of 90 voices.
In a 3rd programme Signor Grossi is Choir Master & Conductor & Music also by him.
I seem to have a lot of coincidences re Signor Grossi & R D Howard because last week I purchased an antiquarian book with some Cork history from 1811 to 1911 and would you believe there is a photograph of Signor Grossi. ( This photo was not related to his music but his role on a charity committee).
It is a nice photo and Signor Grossi . I couldn't post the photo as it was too large so will send you a PM ( private message ) with it.
Mary
Celtic liberty
Mary
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Hi Mary
Thank you for the prompt response. What is the title of the book.
Your pic thru Rootschat did not work. Please resend to *
Many thanks
Best regards
philip
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Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
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Hi Philip,
I sent you a private message with my own email address last night.
I know you are not familiar with this site but if you go up to the very top of the page
you will see a message saying you have messages one is new, click on that and you
will get my message.
Mary
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Hello Everyone
I work in the area of historical and book research and I have been working on a series of postcards sent to Signor Ferruccio Grossi and Madame Marie Grossi in 1902-1906. These postcards were sent it appears by their students. The postcards are for auction at Cork Auction Rooms on January 30th next 2012. Mr & Mrs Grossi were invited to Cork in order that Mr Grossi would conduct an orchestra at the 1902 Cork International Exhibition. Following the exhibition he was invited to stay on in Cork. From my researches I think one of the cards was sent by Mr Grossi to his wife shortly after arriving in Cork. If anyone wants further details either from my researches or of the auction I will be happy to supply same.
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How do I contact Sean de Lear.
I am interested in the Grossi Postcard auction.
How do I proceed?
I live near London.
Best regards
Philip Priestley (mother's maiden name Grossi).
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Hi all. I am new to this and have found a thread about Ferruccio Grossi (misspelled Ferruciggo G Grosoi). My uncle, Philip (GrossiPhil) posted in 2012 asking for details, and someone kindly found the obituary for Ferruccio along with details of his time spent in Cork as a professor of music.
My uncle sadly died and I have limited information regarding what was found. If anyone can help, I’d be most grateful. I am trying to confirm that Ferruccio was born to Arturo and Giuseppina Grossi. I am looking into the Italian side of my family, and my great grandfather (Gualtiero) was brother to Ferruccio. I cannot seem to find anything on the civil searches. Thanks.
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Welcome to Rootschat. As you can see these messages are quite old now. I have skimmed through them and hope that you have got what information has been accessed.
Here they are in 1911
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Cork/Cork_No__6_Urban/South_Mall/394330/
I think there is mention somewhere of his wife. If you look at the Household Form A , it shows they have been married 14 yrs and Marie has given birth to two children, one is living.
This site has civil records. https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/
You need to sign in but is free.
Here is thecdeath of 6 year old Elsa in Cork - presumably the deceased child from the census.
https://www.rootschat.com/links/01rg9/
There is a death for Mitzi Grossi, 72 yrs, 1947 in Dublin.
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Here is Mitzi’s death - Leeson Park address
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1947/04580/4211176.pdf
And the death of ‘Ferruciggo Grosoi’ same address but described as a bachelor.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1955/04437/4159818.pdf
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Thank you for this. I am getting confused as in some records Ferruccio has a middle name and in others he doesn’t, plus his wife is called Marie but referred to on the death certificate as Mitzi. Seems weird. I’m actually more interested in his brother but he did not move to Ireland. I am unsure in Ferruccio is actually related or whether my uncle made an error. Very difficult to find out who his parents were as he was born in Egypt, but the other children were born in Italy.
Thanks for the links. I’ll keep digging.
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In this book https://celt.ucc.ie/AloysFleischmannMusicIreland2013.pdf - page 269 (the actual page not the download page) it mentions Signor Ferruccio Grossi of Milan.
There is an index at the back - he us mentioned briefly but only in musical connections on pages 173, 187, 257 and 269/70.
There is one reference with him to Madame Grossi.
I would think that perhaps Mitzi is a pet name or Marie is an anglicised version.