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Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: tedscout on Saturday 13 February 10 02:44 GMT (UK)
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Hi everone,
I hope someone can help me.
I am trying to find the birth record of Sarah and Elizabeth WILKINS. Who were twins born in Belgium to English parents.
On the 1901 and the 1911 census their birth place is BRUSSELLS,BELGIUM
According to the census they were born about 1882.
Their parents were Sarah and William Wilkins. William was a Steam Engine Maker.
I can find the family in 1881, 1901 and 1911. I cant find them in 1891 so I am presuming they are in Belgium at that time.
Any help would be wonderful,
Thank you in advance, cheers Ted
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I know it's been a while since you posted this query and have probably moved on but I found a pair of twins born in Antwerp in 1891 but only registered in 1892.
I found them through the LDS site under immigration records (the Antwerp Police Immigration Index, 1840-1930), I ordered the microfiche and now have 30 pages of handwritten Flemish to translate!
From these details I then checked the BMD online for free and they came up with birth place of Belgium.
It's worth a try if you haven't already got the info you want.
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Dear Fiona,
Thank you so much for your suggestions. I haven't given up on finding a birth record for Sarah and Elizabeth WILKINS.
I would love to know why the family went to Belgium
Cheers Ted
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Where did they live when the family were in England? Have you any evidence as to what a Steam Engine Maker was in his case. Was William a Steam Engine Fitter or did he design and make in, and own, the "Steam Engine" factory. Was it a stationary steam engine, marine, agricultural or railway steam locomotive. Going to Belgium must have been a money making (or wages making) opportunity for William that is why he was there! Oliver Bulleid, possibly the greatest steam locomotive designer was working in Paris prior to WWI. Bulleid, and his contemporaries Gresley and Stainier travelled in Europe at the same time. It was a very international business. Like the computers or aircraft of today steam was the powerhouse of Victorian/Edwardian times.
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Morning Ted and your cute cat, or Cute cat and Slave,
I’m sure you’ve tried everything but here’s a few things I noticed when looking at the docs I found.
1. The spelling was mainly phonetic i.e. Salomon for Sullivan, Flewri for Florrie, etc.,
2. Within the docs, which make up the file, on some my Grandmother is called Florrie, or Flewri or Florence Elizabeth Lucia! And the index made it look like there were several of her.
3. My twins were born 1891 but their births were not registered until 1892 when I believe they needed to complete immigration records. Infact, the twins were born in the March of 1891 but in the immigration records written September 1892 it is claimed they had only been in Antwerp for 2 months. Another sibling was registered at the same time as the twins and a scribbled note mentions another sib born in 1894.
I also wondered whether you had tried looking for them under the mothers maiden name? Or perhaps they went with cousins or the parents siblings? There may be a good reason for the leaving the UK and perhaps not wanting to be found?
You could always try searching the Belgium records...... but it might be that Belgium is a blind as continental Europe tends to bleed from one country to another quite easily.
Whichever way, good luck with your search and if you find out why they went to Belgium I would be very interested, as my family appear to have gone there in 1891 but were back in the UK by 1900 which is about the same time as yours.
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Hi - hope you are still researching the Neal family, Sarah Neal nee Wilkins was my great-grandmother. Her father went to Belgium as he was a steam engine fitter and worked for a local company called Pegsons, based in Coalville, Leicestershire. They lived in Belgium near the Lions Mound at Waterloo. I can just remember Sarah, she died when I was about 4 years old. Hope you're still out there, if so message me back and we can discuss what we've both found out!
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Lorraine Im here!
Welcome to Rootschat. Talk to me
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I am sooking so bad right now! Never thought anyone would find this post and answer my questions.
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Sarah is also my great grandmother. I have some photos of her. My father is still alive and he always tells me that his grandmother was beautiful.
I grew up here in Australia from the age of 5 and I was blessed when my grandfather emigrated when he was 80. He always told me that his mother was a very special lady.
Please post back here even if it is only twice more so you can PM me your email address.
Love from Sarah's great granddaughter, Ted
(Yes I am a gal called Ted - somehow Ted is short for Patricia - however Sara is my middle name)
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Congratulations, both of you! It really is a small world.....
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Fiona - I am still sooking - I hope she gets back here soon
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Hi there - I think we may have been in touch before, I am the granddaughter of Philip Neal, the youngest son of Philip Neal and Sarah Wilkins. Sarah and her twin Elizabeth were born in Brussels, where her family had moved as their father, William Wilkins, was a steam engine fitter working for Pegsons based in Coalville, Leicestershire. Pegsons is an engineering firm which is still based here in Coalville. Like you, I couldn't find a record of them in the 1881 or 1891 census records. The twins were born in Belgium in 1882 but their son William was born in Coleorton in 1879, so they must have gone between 1879 and 1882, and returned by 1901 when they were living on Talbot Lane in Thringstone. From the census record William and Sarah Wilkins had also lost an older son and daughter (also Elizabeth and William) before they left the country. My dad can remember when Philip and Sarah's house was emptied after her death, there were books about Waterloo and Lions Mound in Belgium, as that was close to where she lived as a child. My uncle Kenny also remembers Sarah (his grandmother) very fondly. When he was at Thringstone Primary School, at dinner time he used to walk past his home and go up the road to his grandmother's for lunch as she was such a good cook. Betty (Kenny's cousin, Grace's daughter) would also walk down from where she worked in Whitwick to have lunch there. After Sarah's death, her house on Thringstone Green was demolished and my grandad Philip had 2 houses built, one for himself and my grandma and one for their daughter Annette who had recently got married. I lived on Thringstone Green with my grandparents on the site of Sarah and Philip's old house until I got married in 1984. I remember Sarah when she was very elderly as until I was 5 I lived with my parents in the house across the road from hers. My parents bought their house on The Green from another member of the Wilkins family. I thought her house was very old fashioned. The garden was quite big but I wasn't allowed to play in it on my own as there was a well. There was a beautiful old fashioned rose, like a pink and white carnation, which my grandad took a cutting of and it used to grow in the garden of the house my grandparents' had built. I can remember Sarah's funeral as the hearse stopped at my grandparents' house on Main Street and I went out with Lyn (Betty's daughter, who was about the same age as me) and we put a posy on her coffin. Sarah and Philip Neal are buried in Thringstone churchyard in the same plot as the ashes of my grandparents, Philip and Annie Neal, and my aunty, Annette Neal.
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Dear Lorraine,
I hope you are still out there. I am not sure why I didn't get notification of this post.
:( Ted
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Hi - no problem, still here and still researching the family! Interesting you should get in touch, dad found some old books last week (date in one is 2nd October 1923). They are all about the science and principles and business and salesmanship, and have a name in the front which is John Wilkins, The Green, Thringstone. Dad bought a house on The Green when he got married in 1959, he cannot remember the name of the woman he bought it from but it was some relative of the Wilkins family. In the front of one of the books there is some Pitman shorthand, which fortunately I read, which gives the name John Andrew Wilkins, The Green, Thringstone, Leicestershire. I took a look at the 1911 census and found a John Andrew Wilkins living near The Green, Thringstone, who was born c.1910. His father is John Wilkins, who was born c.1875. I have found out Sarah Wilkins's twin sister Elizabeth married a man called William Batson, but haven't been able to find out anything else as yet (Batson is not a name of any family we know of in Thringstone, so maybe they moved away), and I know that Sarah and Elizabeth had a brother called William who by the time of the 1911 census was also married and living in Thringstone. I was also aware they had other older siblings called Elizabeth and William, who I believe died in infancy. However I am wondering if they had another brother and this is the John Wilkins above. Timing would be about right, and the family don't appear in the UK 1881 or 1891 census, presumably as they were living in Belgium at this time. I am investigating further, but didn't know if you were aware of any other siblings? I'm also going to visit the churchyard at Thringstone, a couple of local churches in Griffydam and Coleorton have put a cemetery audit online and this has really been interesting and useful in looking up my mum's family, I may try to persuade my dad to help me out with doing the same for St. Andrews at Thringstone! We are still investigating where George Neal may have been buried, it may have been Coleorton Hall which is quite close to us but now a private gated housing estate so difficult to get access to, but we're working on it!
Hope everyone is well and the sun is shining as it is here - best wishes from Lorraine :)
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Don`t know if this of any use - we can`t display 1911 census - but might I suggest you look for
Elizabeth Batson born Brussells residing in the same town she married in to William John Batson .
Whitwick,Ashby De La Zouche ,Leicestershire
www.freebmd.org.uk 1903 marriage
maybe you can see if there are any children in 1911 census...?...
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Hi Lorraine, I am so glad you are out there still and searching our family still.
I have just discovered that a Great Grand Uncle of mine died 3 days before I was born. I am now wondering if my dad or my grandpa knew of him.
The books you have sound fascinating. Both of my sons are at uni doing Mechanical Engineering and I keep telling them they are 4th generation Mechanical Engineers - I am now wondering if the fascination and expertise with machines goes back further.
I wonder if the John you are looking for was a cousin. I have a brother of the William Wilkins born 1845. He was John Wilkins born 1843 in Hugglescote. He had 2 children that I know of - Topliss b 1868 and Laura Louisa b 1878.
Cheers, Ted
Red post: thanks for that hint garstonite
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frrebmd shows:
Births: no children Batson MMN Wilkins found after 1911.
Deaths:
Elizabeth Batson aged 59 1941 Q4 Ashby d l z 7a 246
William J Batson aged 85 1966 Q1 Coalville 3a 610.
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Thanks Josey,
From vague memories of talking to my Aunt before she died (18 years ago) Elizabeth didn't have any children. :'(
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1903 to 1911 didn`t show MMN ?...could Elizabeth have had children during these 8 years ? I would check 1911 census for confirmation Elizabeth and William had no children .
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I would check 1911 census for confirmation Elizabeth and William had no children .
I did ;)
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lol...sorry Josey - I didn`t realise you had ...well that`s that little hiccup sorted ...
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Hi All
I am Richard Shepherd, grandson of Grace Rowell. nee Neal
On revisiting my tree I decided I wanted to clear up why “Little Grandma” as I knew her, Sarah, was born in Belgium. This seemed very strange for the time
I googled her and up came your conversation.
I would welcome any info you have on Belgium, as, now my parents are both gone, there is nobody left to ask.
Lorraine, I do not know if you remember me, I think you would have been six or seven last time I saw you..
Not sure how to access your reply, could you email me direct, if allowed, (*)
Thanks
Richard
(*) Moderator Comment: e-mail removed in accordance with RootsChat policy,
to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
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in case the twins’ birth certificates have not yet been found
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-C8S3-RK?i=397&cc=1482191&cat=242771
cert n° 66 - Elisabeth Wilkins, born Wednesday 11th January 1882 at 7:00 AM in her parents house impasse Darimont number 18, Molenbeek-Saint-Jean, Brussels-Capital, Belgium
cert n° 67 - Sarah Wilkins, born Wednesday 11th January 1882 at 7:15 AM in her parents house impasse Darimont number 18, Molenbeek-Saint-Jean, Brussels-Capital, Belgium
birth registration on 14 January 1882 at 10:00 AM
parents : Guillaume Wilkins, (ajusteur : mechanic fitter ?), born in Leicester, England, 37 years old and Sarah Adams, without profession, born in Leicester, 37 years old, married at Thringston, England
informant : Guillaume Wilkins, father; witnesses : Jean Lefevre, employee, 53 years old and Jean Baptiste Devolder, without profession, 66 years old, all residing at Molenbeek-Saint-Jean
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Hello there Richard, yes I do remember you! I messaged you on Ancestry some time ago, after I had a DNA test done there, don't know if you still check Ancestry but I've put quite a lot of photos on there in the last couple of months. As e-mail addresses appear to be blocked here, you could contact me for more information via them. Can i first say a big thank you to leen for posting the information on the births of Sarah and her twin Elizabeth, this is new information for me and I am very grateful to you for finding it. I had worked out that they were born in Molenbeek from other family members being there, so I am very pleased to see this confirmed. William and Sarah Wilkins went to Belgium as William worked for Stablefords Wagon Works in Coalville as an engineer fitter. Sarah's brother also worked there. I understand from family stories that they ran a hotel or boarding house while they lived in Belgium. When my grandad cleared his mother Sarah's house after her death, there were quite a number of books about the Lion's Mound in Brussels, and it was thought they may have lived near there. One of Sarah's brothers kept a connection with the area, returning to lead tours of the area during the summer months. Hope this is informative - I've got lots more information on the Wilkins family if you're interested. Best wishes, Lorraine
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Richard - when you have made one more post [just reply to this thread] you will be able to exchange personal messages with Lorraine including email address. Click on the text icon under her name & options including PM will appear.
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Hi Everyone, Especially Cousins Lorraine and Richard,
What amazing wonderful news! I am actually skipping round the room with tears in my eyes. Wow who would have thought we would find their births.
Unfortunately my dad is no longer with us to share this with, but he would be as amazed and thankful as I am.
Thank you so much leen and everyone else who has helped for information and suggestions over the years from me starting this thread. I am a little better now finding information and documents, but no English speaking countries still flummox me .
It was just yesterday when I was starting my Memorial Scrapbook Album for my Mum that I came across a photo graph of Sarah.
Again Thank you everyone, Lorraine and Richard please keep in touch from Cousin Ted in Australia.
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Hello Ted, good to hear from you again. I too was ridiculously pleased to see this record, I never would have found it myself and really appreciate how helpful people are. Hope you are all OK and staying safe. I am enjoying spending too much time doing family history at the moment, and have put lots of photos on Ancestry recently. Just goes to show there is still new information for us to find, and new stories to hear! Been to Swannington this morning to deliver some shopping to my mum and we had a drive around Coleorton and I wondered, as I always do, if George Neal walked along those same lanes. I'm sure he must have done, and they really haven't changed very much. Best wishes to all of you - Lorraine xx
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Hi Everyone, Especially the Cousins.
I have sent copies of the birth certificates to my son this morning so that my daughter in law can translate them for me.
I said "if I send you some documents do you think A#$%% can translate them for me" He asked what they were and I said "they are my great grandmothers and her twins birth certificates" (he knows they were born in Belgium).
His reply "Mum she was my great "something" grandmother too, in fact she is more great to me than to you."
I had to share as I am still laughing.
Cheers, from Ted
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Fabulous! I'd love to see the translation, I was going to ask my daughter if she knew anyone who could translate it for us.