RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: igeoff on Wednesday 10 February 10 01:31 GMT (UK)
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I am looking for evidence of the trip from Glasgow to Sydney Australia [probably via ship from London] of my grandfather, Philip Cohen.
Philip was born in the Russian Baltic States (Retabo) in 1884. Traveled to Glasgow at some time after 1901 [he's not in the Census] and married Jessie Crown in January 1910 in Glasgow. Their past before this is discussed in another Rootschat thread in the Scotland forum.
In Glasgow they had two children: Hannah in September 1910 and Solomon Bernard on 14 January 1912.
Jessie and the two children boarded the ship Pakeha as passengers in London. The ship departed on 22 August 1912 bound for New Zealand via Sydney. Philip is not in the passenger.
I know they eventually all are in Sydney -- their next child Eva was born in Sydney in November 1914.
MY primary goal is to find out how and when Philip came to Australia. While Jessie and the children are in passenger lists, which I got via findmypast, Philip does not appear in any passenger list there.
Crew lists for UK departures apparently have not yet all been indexed. I suspect that Philip came as a crew member and I suspect he came either before his wife and children or as a crew member on the same ship as them.
Philip must have impregnated Jessie somewhere around April 1911 -- so a departure much before this seems unlikely.
Do people have any suggestions as to my next step? I would be happy with Philip's arrival in Sydney or with his departure from Britain. Jessie's arrival in Sydney would be a bonus: as I know her departure ship and date I am sure I will eventually get her arrival.
Unfortunately I live in Brisbane, some 1000km north of Sydney. This means that physical visits to archives in Sydney are not easy.
Thanks
Geoff
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don't know if this is him but i found a Berl Schonermann the port of departure was glasgow scotland they arrived in boston on 23rd december 1906 berl was hebrew the ships name was corinthian and his friends name was philip cohen it says their last known residence was russia ;D
kerry
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Thanks Kerry...
I think it is unlikely to be him.
Philip Cohen is not that uncommon a name, unfortunately.
As for "mine":
I have him marrying in January 1910 in Glasgow.
Then fathering two children.
SO I think departure in 1911 or 1912 is most likely.
He was not rich, so I think it unlikely he came to Glasgow, then went off to the US, then came back and married and then moved to Australia.
G.
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have you searched?
www.naa.gov.au
select collections, record search, search as guest and then put Philips' name into search box.
Leanne
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Yes.
Only his naturalisation file is there [and that is digitised at my request]. That contains minmal information about his coming to Australia [year only and it is demonstrably wrong!].
I suspect I need access to crew lists, but how and where to get hold of them is the problem!
G.
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Hi Geoff,
Jessie and children arrived in Sydney 5 Oct 1912 - wow, according to newspapers, 1,164 immigrants onboard!! http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/5341164?searchTerm=pakeha ....and corresponding crew! I have been through the crew list twice, and cannot find any crew member with that surname or anything that might look like it. Crew lists from that time period have ages recorded, and I cannot find any possibilities for your Phil(l)ip 1911 - 1913. Was he a good swimmer? ;D (I know he wasn't a good driver! SMH Monday 20 August 1928)
I am of the opinion that it would have been very unusual for Jessie to arrive on her own with nobody to meet her, and normally you find that the husband came out first to establish himself and the family followed. The other problem that you have is that passenger lists for that period will often just say "Mr Cohen" with no identifying info. They do sometimes list an occupation.
I have found a Mr. P Cohen (definitely "Mr.") arriving in Sydney on the Otranto on 23 Nov 1911. The entry which appears to correspond (Cohen, 1911, age unknown) on findmypast lists this person as a female - perhaps worth checking out anyway?
What is the word above 1910 on his naturalisation record?
Debra
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This looks like really good stuff, Debra!
I had found the female on the Otranto on findmypast, but not the arrival!
Looks like FindMyPast may have an error!
Geoff
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Hi Geoff,
The Otranto went from London to Fremantle, Adelaide, Melb and Sydney. I thought that the P. Cohen was not part of the Melbourne passengers, but cross checking with Melbourne arrivals from England, the name is not there. It seems that it was a female Cohen who left England in 1911 and was travelling on a different ship :'(
Debra
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Thanks Debra!
I no longer have access to findmypast [trial finished], but as I vaguely recall it a female P Cohen was listed as departing on the Otranto some time in 1911.
So I imagine my first step is to re-find the London departure record fro the Otranto and check the date [I assume FindMyPast has a pay as you go option].
Then:
IF the departure matches the arrival you have located, we have a female P. Cohen(but no male) leaving London and a male P. Cohen (but no female) arriving in Australia! In this case I have to decide which entry is in error :)
IF the departure and arrival do not match, then either the P Cohen arriving in Australia boarded somewhere other than London or there is an error in the London departure lists.
I am sorely tempted to believe that the female P. Cohen is an error and this is "my" Philip.
Unfortunately I am a trained social science researcher and thus believe in evidence based conclusions. This means the best I can do is to treat the error idea as the best hypothesis available on the evidence. A look at the London departure list will either strengthen or destroy this hypothesis.
Cheers
Geoff
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This more an update than a "reply" to my own post.
I have a P. Cohen arriving in Sydney on Nov 23 1911. The list [part of a crew and passenger list] implies, but does not say, that all those on the list boarded in London [and not en route]. This person is a good candidate for "my" Philip.
However, a search on findmypast for a P. Cohen (or ANY Cohen, for that matter) leaving on the Otranto for Australia in 1911 yielded no one.
One possibility is that the index is incomplete. However, the only way to check this is to find the relevant departure of the Otranto and look page by page through the passenger list.
There are NO other P. Cohens, male or female, in the shipping departure lists on line for any ship that fit the bill as "my" one. All depart either too early to have fathered Jessie's second child or significantly long after Jessie.
In summary, the Otranto person is very likely him, but I would very much like to establish him leaving Britain as well as arriving in Sydney.
-G