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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Topic started by: waynedholland on Sunday 07 February 10 19:16 GMT (UK)
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I have just "jumped the pond" from Philadelphia, PA to England looking for my ancestors. My Holland ancestors were very early settlers of Pennsylvania, it started when Joshua Holland bought 5,000 acres of land from William Penn in 1683. My particular problem is this. When Joshua and his son John are first mentioned in 1683 they are referred to as shipwrights from Chatham in the County of Kent, I have found Joshua's Will in 1690 in a book "American Wills Proved in London" and it refers to Joshua as having land in Shadwell, Middlesex and leaving this land as well as land in Pennsylvania to his son John. John's widow Maria produced a will from him dated 29 May 1695 saying he was from Pleaston, Essex, which i have not even been able to find such a place, she and Johns son John Jr produced this will which at the time is noted it was not proved in 1720 in Pennsylvania. John Jr at this time was stated as being John Holland vintner from London.
My questions is, where in the world do I look for records for them? Should i search all the places mentioned in the different records? and what about this place referred to as Pleaston, Essex? My family genealogy has always thrown me through a loop, right now I am trying to tie 4 different Holland men into Joshua and John Holland, they may not be related to them but they all appeared around the same time in Pennsylvania USA, Thomas Holland probably born around 1700, Henry Holland born around 1710, Thomas Holland and his wife Maria die in Pennsylvania in 1695 and 1705 respectively, Robert Holland born around 1720 and my GGGG Grandfather Benjamin Holland born around 1758 who I believe is Roberts son, but all of that is for Pennsylvania records and ive gotten a bit off track.
I would love any advice of what my next step should be, thank you
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just a thought, could Pleaston be Plaistow ?
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I was going to suggest the same - Plaistow was the first place that sprang to mind. It's a long way from Chatham and Shadwell, though :-\
If John Jr was a vintner in London, you may find some records relating to him at The Vintners' Company: http://www.vintnershall.co.uk/index.php Worth a try!
Cheers
Prue
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Thank you for the Vintners link, i will check that out, would be interesting to see if John is mentioned
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Joshua's will is also available online from the National Archives.
Searching for surname Holland and place Shadwell gives four wills, perhaps they would help you?
I searched from the Canterbury wills link on this page:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/willsdeathduties.asp
You could try this site too
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/
it links to archives around the UK and you can limit your search in various ways.
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Plaistow in Essex is now within the greater London area: it's on the north bank of the Thames and so not impossible to imagine that someone who had land in Shadwell might also have interests in Plaistow. Chatham of course is on the south side of the river, but further out to sea along the estuary than either of the other two. All good sea-faring places - I wouldn't rule it out.
Nell
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Thank you for the links to the archives pages! I downloaded the will of Joshua, Thomas and John, the one for Joshua was definently my Joshua, the other two though they might be related its in a way i have not found yet. I noticed in the transcript and saw it again in Joshua's will he talks about his son's John Holland, Thanks Holland, and Francis Jackson. It seems odd to me that Joshua Holland's son Francis Jackson would have a different surname. Any ideas on why this would be? The will doesnt say it just refers to him as his son.
Thank you again for all the help, I will have to see what records I can find for Plaistow as well as Shadwell, and Chatham, to see where Joshua and his children might appear in the parish records.
You guys have been great
Wayne
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Just a thought - could Francis Jackson be what we would now term a son-in-law? They seemed to be very liberal with the meanings of relationships in earlier times...
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It was usual at that time in wills to refer to a daughter's husband as my son Francis Jackson. A son in law would be the son of a spouse by a previous marriage.
David
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Just to add .... if Pleaston was the present day Plaistow, it is very near the River Lea, about 7 km upstream from the Thames and would have been a major commercial route of the time.
Shadwell is in the London Docks on the Thames, between The Tower and Limehouse.
The places mentioned all make sense for a shipwright.
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It was usual at that time in wills to refer to a daughter's husband as my son Francis Jackson. A son in law would be the son of a spouse by a previous marriage.
David
That was what I was trying to say (quoted below) in a much less elegant way! ;D
Just a thought - could Francis Jackson be what we would now term a son-in-law? They seemed to be very liberal with the meanings of relationships in earlier times...
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That definently makes sense, from what I can tell of the will Joshua doesnt go to alot of detail in explaining how some people are related. He mentions his daughter Elizabeth Holland living in Pennsylvania, what he fails to mention is she is married to Anthony Tomkins and living on 1,000 acres of his land in Pennsylvania at that time, I learned that in some Pennsylvania archives. He also mentions his granddaughter Mary Slany, I would think that Slany is her married name, but thankfully he does say that she can only get her inheritance once she reaches 21 or is married, so Joshua helped me out a little there. Its really interesting trying to figure out exactly what someone meant in something they wrote 300+ years ago.
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You guys were right! and Google is an amazing tool. I googled "Francis Jackson" married daughter of "Joshua Holland" and this is what I found
someone posted 2 years ago
I have found a
> reference to a Joshuah Holland - a mariner - as father of the bride Hannah
> Holland of School Hayle Lane in Radcliff, Joshuah being of the same
> address. She married Francis Jackson of Swithins Lane, London, at
> Devonshire House, on 26th day of 5th mo. called March 1685. The marriage
> was withnessed by Thanks Holland and an Elizabeth Witheridge! with the
> consent of parents and relations, although Joshuah did not appear to have
> signed the certificate. Reference RG6/1437> I couldnt find any of the
> other names you mentioned.> Look forward to seeing you at Reading.> Liz
> Butler
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Well done to you and Google!
At least Thanks is an unusual name.
There is this marriage in the IGI
http://www.familysearch.org/eng/search/frameset_search.asp?PAGE=igi/search_IGI.asp&clear_form=true
Thanks Holland to Hannah Tilden 27 Jan 1686 St James Dukes Place London.
There are quite a few marriages for Holland at that church - and first names are repeated a bit.
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Again thanks, so, so far i have the family looking like this
Joshua Holland married unknown, 14-15 June 1682 bought land from William Penn, he is said to be a mariner, Chatham, County of Kent
children, 16 May written 26 May proved 1690 Joshua's will states he is from Shadwell, Middlesex
John Holland 19 May 1683 by power of attorney from father Joshua sold 500 acres of land to Morris Lewellyn of Pennsylvania, has a will written on 29 May 1695, the will is shown 15 April 1720 in Pennsylvania by his widow Maria, son John, vintner of London and daughter Maria in Pennsylvania the will is only referred to and not what it actually says, he is referred to being from Pleaston *possibly Plaistow*, Essex
Thanks Holland married Hannah Tilden on 27 Jan 1686 at St James Dukes Place, London
Hannah Holland married Francis Jackson on 26 May 1685 in Devonshire House Society of Friends, London. School Hayle Lane of Radcliffe is mentioned as her and fathers address
Elisabeth Holland married Anthony Tomkins, they took up 1,000 acres of land in Bucks County, Pennsylvania
unknown Holland married unknown Slany, they had daughter Mary Slany mentioned in Joshuas will dated 1690
and I think that is it but in a couple of days the puzzle has really started to come together, thank you all for your trememdous help
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You're welcome! :D
What an interesting family you have...stick with Rootschat, you might find even more of them! ;D
Cheers
Prue
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Found this bit about Hannah Tilden:
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=DvSYwpSV6fwC&q=%22thanks+holland%22&dq=%22thanks+holland%22&cd=9
Hope the link works.
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Just found that link myself, interesting little read on the Tilden family, plus adds Stepney to the list of places to Holland's liked to live
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Hi
Joshua Holland or sometimes called Josiah was a Quaker from Chatham in Kent. He died in 1695 and left a will. He was an active quaker contributing £7 15s to the purchasing of a burial ground in Rochester Kent in 1675 (the largest donation) He was arrested in 1683 for being more than 5 miles from his abode and imprisoned at Maidstone. He was also arrested in 1682 & 1685 in Chatham. The Chatham St Marys Churchwarden Accounts indicate he refused to pay the church rate in 1673, 1674, 1675, 1676, 1677, 1678, 1681 & by 1683 is marked 'gone ' ie he was in prison. Because of the clampdown on quakers in the 1680s he may have gone to London, but also his job as mariner may have made him move. I suspect that he had 5 children & that each received 1000 acres of land in Pennsylvania. The fifth child was presumably a daughter married to a Slany to produce a grandchild by that name. This was a name that existed in the Chatham parish registers for that period. Unfortunately no early Rochester Quaker Meeting records survive so his marriage or that of some of his children may not be traceable. The court records are published in J S Cockburn 'Calendar of Assize records : Kent indictments 1676-1686'. I have found this out doing local quaker research & would verify the information you have on the other Holland children.
Catharina
PS I work at the local archives so will check Chatham transcriptions to see if I can find a Slany who married a Holland.
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Catharina,
Thank you for the wonderful information about Joshua. That really tells me something about the man that he was. It is a little disheartening to find out i might never know his wifes name, or who his children married. I think i have tracked down his grandson John Holland in Chester, Pennsylvania, he arrived in PA abt 1710 and went back to England where he married Mary Somerford in a Quaker Meeting House, i dont have my notes right here so I dont have the Meeting Houses name offhand. John then went back to Chester PA with his new bride. I have been trying to find any indication of John Sr's other children or his marriage but of course nothing yet, I know his wifes name was Maria, the closest record i have found so far is a mariner John Holland and Mary Kinnet marriage in Stepney in 1686. Anthony Tomkins and Elizebeth Holland did take up a 1,000 acres of Joshuas land in Bucks County but i have been unable to track them any further. I wonder where Thanks Holland's life took him, and I also wonder since Joshua in his will only mentioned Francis Jackson, not his daughter Hannah, and he mentionioned his granddaughter Mary Slany but not her mother, whether those two daughters had passed allready.....
Something to ponder, I love the information, thank you again i love Genealogy!
Wayne
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Hi
I have checked Chatham transcipts, but cannot find a marriage between a Holland & Slany.
I have found out a little more about Hannah Jackson. She died in Surrey in 1692 & had two children
Joshua in 1685 & Francis in 1687.
Another genealogy website in US (Google Public library + Tompkins + Holland) about Tompkins family estimated Anthony Tompkins dob as 1672. Therefore he and Elizabeth would not have been married in 1690 & hence not in Joshua's will. There is no trace of their marriage here and I would hazard a guess they married in Pennsylvania.
Catharina
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Hi Wayne,
If you can narrow down the dates a little for Joshua and confirm he was actually born in Chatham rather than just 'from' Chatham you may find CityArk worth a visit.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0cz/
The registers are not transcribed or indexed but I find that makes it much more fun. :)
Paul
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Found some more information about Anthony Tomkins and Elizabeth Holland on the Pennsylvania Side of things. They are mentioned in a compiled book of the Tomkins/Tompkins family in America. This is what it says
Anthony Tomkins and Elizibeth Holland daughter of Joshua Holland, Quaker
had of Horsleydown
Joshua b. d 1726 Burlington, NJ
John b d Dec 10 1744 in Penn
Robert b 1675 d May 17 1727 in Penn
Anthony apparently only one to remain in England
Elizabeth b d Oct 1745 in Penn
Also some i found on Francis Jackson and Hannah Holland
their son Francis Jackson died on 31st day 3rd Month 1692 aged about 5 years
I also found a daughter Hannah Jackson died in 4th day 11 Month 1691 aged about 6 months
also a son Benjamin Jackson aged about 4 months died 18th day 6th month 1690
the birth of Joshua Jackson is noted in Middlesex reords as being 7th day 1st month 1686
all of the death records have place of records listed as being Surrey and burial in Cho.. Alley
Found Hannah Jackson's death, it says she died at Plaistow in County of Essex on 12th day 9th month 1692 of the consumption aged about 26 years
The Plaistow entry is especialy interesting because of John Holland's will mentioning it.
I found all of this on the website TheGenealogist.co.uk, very handy site. Even if i had to fork over a little cash to use it
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A word of warning about using printed pedigrees from the USA. They are usually based on two sources, family stories and the same sources as you are using. Unless you can distinguish between these you should be very careful about using them as a confirmation of your own resources.
I have used a number of these and it is very interesting to find out how much of the content is correct and from where it was derived. As an example in one of these a common ancestor was shown as born in a particular place in London which I knew was wrong. However this fact led to me finding a bigamous marriage and his first wife and daughter living in that area of London.
David
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I know exactly what you mean about printed resources in USA. When I first started doing my families genealogies I would find information online, or I would find a complied family tree that looked great. I soon realized that many of them contain many errors and unless there were reputeable sources included to not really trust the information. I have seen connections that arent even possible, ie a mother giving birth 2 years after she was born.
Some people make huge assumptions too. For example this May I am going to place a grave marker on my ancestor Benjamin Holland born apx 1758, previously to my research he was listed in records as having been buried in Lower Merion Friends Meeting House, i eventually found several documents that proved he was actually buried at Lower Merion Baptist Church cemetery. Apparently because he had buried several infants in the Quaker cemetery they archivists assumed he was buried there too. He was an American Revolutionary war veteran and finding his actual grave we can finally but a VA marker on his grave.
Thank you all for the links and information before i posted on this chat all i really knew about Joshua Holland was that he had bought land in Pennsylvania and had died in 1690.
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Just thought I would update you on Joshua Holland of Chatham. If you type his name plus trade tokens in Google Books you will find that he produced his own trade token in the 1660s in Chatham.
The book by Williamson gives a bit of info on the token.
Good hunting
Catharina
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I forgot to mention that if you google the same info plus ebay you will get an image of the token.
Catharina
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I tried typing the information into Google books and also in regular google both for ebay and without and couldnt find anything but Joshua's name in an index that gave no information
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There was a recent sale of one of Joshua's token on ebay, but i thin kthe image has now been archived.
As well as this private sale there are two of his tokens in the British Museum. The link is www.britishmuseum.org/...museum/.../coins.../history_of_the_collection.aspx and type his name in the collections search and two entries come up for him. You can by the looks of it obtain photographs of the tokens from them, but it does not look cheap!
This entry also came up for your Joshua when googling his name + Chatham.
Minute Book - February 1668, 3-14 | Calendar of Treasury Books ...
Petition read from the Farmers of the London Excise about Joshua Holland of
Chatham. Holland to be summoned to attend next Tuesday. Same read from Col.
www.british-history.ac.uk/report
Catharina
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Thank you for the links and the information, I will have to keep an eye online and on ebay for pictures of the tokens, and see what people are trying to get for the tokens themselves, probably way more then I can afford, but to actually have one of Joshua's tokens would be amazing.
I havent made much progress in tying Joshua Holland to his Pennsylvania descendants. The biggest thing I have found is that Thomas Holland who died in Philadelphia on 10 Sept 1755, leaving a large family, in his will says that he wants his lands in Chatham that were given to him by his father, be given to his son. Now if only i could find out who his father was.....
I love the mystery but I always hope its a mystery that can be solved, sometimes the records for this period just dont exist.