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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: Lisa1975 on Saturday 06 February 10 11:39 GMT (UK)
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Hi, i have posted this previously on the beginners board but thought i'd have another go on the Lancashire board as well :)
This is my original thread http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,397187.0.html
My brickwall is my Husband's Great Grandfather William Carney.
This the information i have on him so far
Born - approx 1872 (based on his age at marriage and death) place unknown
Fathers name William (as per the marriage cert) Fathers occupation - Coachman
Married: Emily Trevena - 15th October 1921 at Birkenhead Registry office - aged 48 - Emily was 37 - witnesses to the marriage were Emily's Half Brother and Sister
Address at time of marriage - 57 Egerton Street, New Brighton
Occupation - Bricksetter/Labourer
Death - Mill Road Hospital - 14th February 1928
Address at the time of death - 35 Orphan Road, Liverpool
William and Emily had one child, a daughter called Winifred born 1923 in Liverpool
I have no idea at all where William was born. He died when his daughter was 5 years old and she had no memory of her Father and there are no photographs of him or anything else that belongs to him that could identify his place of of birth, in the family..
I have contacted the Liverpool Record Office to see if the admission registers for Mill Road hospital for 1927/28 are available or if the Creed registers would hold any information regarding his place of birth and am waiting to hear back
Any suggestions as to how i can trace William's place of birth would be great as i don't really have the patience to wait until the 1921 census is released :)
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Hi,
Have you tried Directories,
took a look at Gore's Directory of Liverpool and Birkenhead 1900, Alphabetical listing for Carney's but nothing really stands out in occupations.
Maybe someone has a later edition?
Good Luck!!
Cancan
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Thanks Cancan :)
Is there anywhere online to search the directories between 1900 and 1928 ?
Another forum member advised me there is a William Corny (transcribed incorrectly, as it's actually spelt as Carny on the census) on the 1911 living in Birkenhead (born Congleton, Cheshire) and his occupation is a Masons Labourer so the age, occupation and location fits but i can't find this William with a father called William on any other census
I know that "my" William was living at 57 Egerton Street, New Brighton at the time of his marriage and on the 1911 census, Emily's Step Sister Mary was living at that address with her Husband and children so i wonder if there is a way to trace from the directories, who was living there after 1911 and if it was still Mary etc, maybe William was lodging with them.
Thanks again for your help. I feel one more step closer to solving the mystery :)
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Duplicated post
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Hi
I have looked at various records and see what you are up against!
The 1911, as you said in your post, has a William Corny (but the original looks like Carny). He was 41 and a mason's labourer but I'm sure it's him as he is listed as single, and you said he was a bachelor when he married in 1921. There probably weren't many bachelors aged in their 40's in those days.
It says he was born in Congleton, but he may not have known his exact place of birth. His earlier family may have been from Congleton. There was only one other person, Caroline Williams, head, widow, charwoman, born Yorkshire, so unlikely to be related.
There are 2 births in Birkenhead -
March Q 1870 8a 494
sept Q 1870 8a 446
both for William Carney.
It might be worth ringing Birkenhead register office explaining your predicament and asking that if you sent the appropriate fee would they only send a certificate if the father was William and had an occupation of coachman or similar.
Or you could ask the GRO in Southport to do a search over a period of time. I think they do 3 years either side of a given year for arounf £10.
Also, when I was searching for one of mine, his occupation was also "coachman" (as William senior) but it turned out to be railway coaches, so don't discount railway occupations.
Good luck with your search
Sandgrounder
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Thanks Sandgrounder :)
It's mad isn't it with all the resources we have now, i can't even find out where my Hubby's Great Grandfather was born.
The one on the 1911 census seems to fit so i'll work on that. I live in Essex and if i had a spare day or so, i'd be on my way up to Cheshire so scour the record offices :)
I put the thread on here as William lived in Liverpool with his wife and daughter from 1923 until he died in 1928. Emily then moved back to Wallasey to be nearer her family
Thanks again to everyone for your help with this. I'm really grateful
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Hi again
I have found a family which seem to fit (with a couple of glitches.) See what you think...
1901
William T Carney, 30 Coachman Domestic, Single, born Warwick
lodger in Birmingham, St. Martin
1891
Catherine Carney 44 Widow born Ireland
William, 20, Bolt and Rivet maker, born Warwick
Margaret 18
Ellen 16
John 12
Edward 14
Annie 10
Kate 8
Elizabeth 4
59 High Park Road, Harborne Stafford
1881
William Carney, 37 Bricklayer's labourer, Ireland
Catherine 34, Ireland
James 12
William 10, b Birmingham
Mary 8
Ellen 6
Edward 4
John 2
Annie
12 House, Back of 65 Heath Street, Rotton (?) Park, Birmingham.
The Coachman and the bricklayer's labourer is there, albeit the wrong way round.
Birth:
Q1 1871 William Carney, Birmingham Ref: 6d113
It might be worth a try
Sandgrounder
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Thanks again Sandgrounder :) I really appreciate the time you've spent on this for me.
I've spent most of today going through the BMD for all Carneys/Carnys etc born in Congleton around the time of William's birth, then tracing them on the census records for parents names. So far, none have a Father called William so that kind of rules Congleton out as a place of birth for my William unless he was an only child and they moved just after he was born.
Going with the Staffordshire/Warwickshire link you've found as well as the occupations fitting to a degree, there is also the fact that the Father William died between 1881-1891 and on my William's marriage cert, his Father was deceased.
The thing that is niggling me is how will i prove that this William is the right one as without the 1921 census that would confirm his place of birth, hopefully if he was still living at Egerton Street at the time the census was taken (he married Emily in the October) or if i am able to get to look at the admission registers from Mill Road Hospital that would hopefully have his date of birth, it's all guesswork :(
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Me again :)
I found out today from my Mother-in-Law that William apparently worked on the Anglican Cathedral in Liverpool during the 20's so i have emailed the Archivist at the Cathedral to see if they have any records that would confirm this.
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Hi Lisa
I think you are doing the right thing by checking as much as you know from family.
I did find a Nellie Carney, born Congleton, b.c 1893, living in Birkenhead in 1911 with an Alfred Tomkinson and family and listed as Alfred's niece. I found her again in 1901 and 1891 in Smallthorne and Congleton respectively with parents Thomas b.c. 1859 in Congleton and Sarah. Unfortunately couldn't get back further than that - they seem to be missing in 1881. In 1901 there was a William Tomkinson, nephew, born Congleton, living with the family. No obvious connection to yours, but a strong connection to both Congleton and Birkenhead.
I'd dig a bit more with your family if I were you to see if they can remember any more!!
Sandgrounder
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Hi Lisa
There are no suitable Carney/Carnys in the 1925 Directory, and no Trevenas at all. In the 1903 Directory - again no suitable Carneys, but Mrs Elizabeth Trevena is living at 1 The Avenue, Egerton Street, New Brighton. She was living at 28 Tollemache Street, New Brighton in 1911. You could check who else was living at that address, both via the census and the electoral rolls for the males.
From his age he should have been involved in the Great War. There were 50 William Carneys (no Carnys) receiving medals for WW1. You had to serve overseas to receive a medal, so there would have been others who were kept at home. But you may find something in the WW1 records on Ancestry. Also Findmypast will be putting online the army records for pre WW1 soldiers, both regulars and militiamen during 2011.
I am sure you have considered that his father may have been invented, and also that he may have taken a few years off his age when he got married. As he did not live long enough to draw his old age pension he could have got through life not needing to prove his age.
Has this been posted before? On FreeBMD, William Carney, Congleton, Sep (qtr) 1865. In the 1871 census he is living with parent’s Thomas and Bridget so I think you can discount the 1911 William Corny.
Both New Brighton streets are still there. If you find them on Multimap (and switch to Birds Eye view) half the houses are still there. A number are three storey so idea for lodgings, and less that 2 minutes from the ferry.
Ken
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Have you got William's death certificate just in case he had an accident that resulted in his death and then you could look (or have someone look) in the local newspaper for a report of his death. Lots of Carneys were Irish Catholics, and with a date of death you may be able to track down a burial. Also I suppose you have looked at Probate Records, just to check he didn't leave a will.
Both long shots, I know. :-\
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Me again :)
I found out today from my Mother-in-Law that William apparently worked on the Anglican Cathedral in Liverpool during the 20's so i have emailed the Archivist at the Cathedral to see if they have any records that would confirm this.
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Hello, I have Carney family that were born in Liverpool and moved to Belfast. Most were barbers by trade. Nicholas, William, Peter, Richard, Thomas Carney-- Liverpool 1861 and 1881.
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My GG Grandfather Patrick J. Carney, born in 1839, England to parents Denis Carney/Mary Quinlan (from Ireland) (who I also cannot find any early records for in England) eventually changed the spelling of his name to Kearney in the latter years of his life. The two spellings seem to be interchangeable in many of the records I have seen! Have you thought of looking up your relative with the "Kearney" surname? Just a thought!
Deborah