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Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: suemartin on Wednesday 03 February 10 15:27 GMT (UK)
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I dont speak French and Im struggling to know exactly how to do this. These are the details just in case...
Hello I am new. I am needing a look up for certificate purchase for my Great Grandfather listed below.
Pierre Francois Fontaine
DOB: 18th December, 1836
Canton of Geneve
Married : Catherine Anastasia Kiely
Date: 12th June, 1869
Jamieson , Victoria Australia
Love some help in how to do this and the fees please...
Sue
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http://boards.ancestry.ca/thread.aspx?mv=flat&m=6561&p=localities.weurope.switzerland.general
- more info - is the birthdate of "18 Dec 1836" from the record already found for you from Geneve or has this been confirmed from Australian data?
Have a read through here, also:
http://www.eye.ch/swissgen/intro-e.htm
http://etat.geneve.ch/aegconsult/ws/consaeg/public/FICHE/NumSearch
- choose "Répertoires de etat civil" and then "Répertoire des naissances du canton" for 1831-1840 (E.C. rép. 1.40) (click the camera).
on image 168 you can see him and his siblings.
5 Avril 1835 - Pierre
18 Xbre (December) 1836 - Francois
15 8bre (October) 1840 - Susanne
all children of David Fontaine and Jeanne Magnin(?)
All Geneve (as opposed to another commune within the canton).
on image 169 there's another child - Louis, 4 Avril 1839.
My Catholic relatives (both French and French-speaking Belgian) had baptismal names they never used normally = e.g. Honore Charles was "Charles", Pierre Jean Olivier was "Olivier", so that could be what's happening here.
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Hello Jorose,
Wow thankyou so much. the ancestry link is me trying to find info..
The links you gave me are wonderful...
The dates and names are from my Great Grandfathers wedding and death certificates. They were easily able to be retrieved from here in Australia. so this appears to definately be my relatives. I cant believe that there are more. I have grown up my whole life knowing nothing and in the last 3 years have pieced together some history that even my mother and her brother did not know.
I dont know how Pierre got to Australia at all... its interesting because there is a Pierre and a Francois...I did not know of the brothers and sisters. The marriage document says Pierre or Peter and the Death Certificate says Pierre so it seems the date I had for the birth was incorrect, and that my Great Grandfather was Pierre born on the 5th April 1835.
I thought my family was French so it surprises me that they are Swiss. Is the name Fontaine Swiss in origin? Sorry I shouldn't ask you so many questions. Im wondering if Jeanne or Jeanette Magnin is also Swiss and David Fontaine. The Marriage Certificate says that David (Peter David) the Father of Pierre is a Town clerk and the name of Jeanne or Jeannette on the wedding Certificate is Marian Magnin, so I hear what you are saying about names...
I found a David (Peter David) in a Census in England, and it said from the county Lausanne... however maybe thats a big stretch to think I can say 2 + 2 = 4 for that one.
I am very happy and grateful thank you so much.
Sue
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"Fontaine" is a name found in France, yes. However, there are of course French families who moved to Switzerland, and Geneva is in the traditionally French-speaking area of Switzerland, so there's no way of telling from the information you currently have how long the family were in Geneva, or in Switzerland for.
http://www.unige.ch/biblio/ses/jla/gen/swiss-e.html - here's another site to have a read through, explains the various sources that are available.
http://www.gen-gen.ch/?a=20&p=471&IndID=1207121
- from this it seems that Pierre Fontaine m. in Switzerland.
(if you go back to the etat.geneve site and look for "E.C. rép. 2.17", the 1861-1870 marriages, you can see this record; it's in 1870 in Geneve).
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Magnin is certainly a Swiss surname - there are several Magnin families in different parts of Switzerland, including one large one in the canton of Geneva.
The Fontaine family in Geneva seems to have originated in Savoie (France), according to the "Dictionnaire Historique et Biographique de la Suisse", although it doesn't say when they came to Switzerland. (There is a Fontaine family which migrated from Savoie to the canton of Freiburg in the late 1600s, so perhaps the Geneva family is an offshoot of this branch?)
Rambler
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Hello Jorose and Rambler. We may have a problem here...
According to Australian marriage details which I have a copy of Pierre Francois Fontaine married Kate (Catherine) Anastasia Kiely on the 12th June 1869. So this Pierre Fontaine cannot be the same person.
On the marriage details the Father is named Peter David Fontaine and the mother is named Marian Magnin. On that date Pierre Francois puts his age as 31 making his DOB around 1838.
On his Death Certificate 10th June 1910 his age is 73 years making his DOB around 1837... his father's name is Peter David Fontaine and mother's name...looks like Mary Fontaine nee Magnin
So now Im thinking the information given to me way back in the beginning was incorrect.... it just doesnt work if he married in 1870 in France. So Im thinking I am back where I started and grateful Jorose that you picked it up...
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You have "Pierre Francois Fontaine" son of "Peter David Fontaine".
If "Pierre" and "Peter" (probably Pierre) are baptismal names then you would expect them to be "Francois" and "David" in some records and "Pierre Francois" and "Pierre David" in others (e.g. church records). (His mother could be "Mary Jeanne Magnin" at her baptism).
So the "Pierre" b. 1835 and married 1870 is not him, but the "Francois" b. 1836 may be him. The mother's surname certainly matches.
The record that was found for you is a civil record, I don't know if there would also be a baptism record that could be found.
Another question: in Australia, were the family Catholic or Protestant?
And what was Pierre Francois' occupation?
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Hi Jorose,
They were Catholics, which puts a different spin on it hey? In Australia he was a Miner. He came for the Goldrush in a place called Enochs Point in Big River. He had 6 children...
Its hard to read the marriage details but it is definately listed Geneva Switzerland as the birthplace,
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Hello there Jorose. My kind friend on Ancestry gave me all this information.
I am just puzzled over who then is my grandfather...
The information is wonderful and some of what you gave me. Its here;
Hello Sue,
I found a lot of information concerning your FONTAINE and MAGNIN families at the Statal Archive in Geneva, but it was difficult.
1. David FONTAINE was born ca 1795 (in the surrounding of Geneva, but I will probably find it). His parents were Pierre FONTAINE and Aimé FOY (also sometime written Foex, or Foi) from the village of Ornex in the Department Ain, in France (this Department of France is touching Geneva and Ornex is a few km from Geneva city. David FONTAINE died in Geneva on the 9th May 1857 in Geneva and was burried in Geneva on 12 May 1857.
2. David FONTAINE married on 9th October 1832 in Collex-Bossy (a small village in the Canton of Geneva) at the catholic church, Jeanne MAGNIN, born 15 May 1809 in Collex-Bossy and who died on 24th May 1848 in Geneva, burried on 26th May 1848 in Geneva. She was the daughter of François MAGNIN and Marguerite PERNOUD who lived in Collex-Bossy. (See further down names and dates of birth of their 7 children.
3. David FONTAINE and Jeanne MAGNIN lived in Geneva and had 4 children:
a) Pierre FONTAINE born 05th April 1835 in Geneva, christened (catholic) on 19th April 1835 in Geneva.
b) François FONTAINE (he was only called François) born 8th November 1836 in Geneva, christened (catholic) on 12th November 1836 in Geneva.
c) Louis FONTAINE born 3rd Aprils 1839 in Geneva, christened (catholic) on 14th April 1839 in Geneva.
d) Susanne FONTAINE born 05th October 1840 in Geneva, christened (catholic) on 25th October 1840 in Geneva. She marries in 1862, David Auguste VIONNET born 1828, from Le Chenit, Vaud (another canton of Switzerland).
4. Children of François MAGNIN and Marguerite PERNOUD, all born in Collex-Bossy in the Canton of Geneva:
a) born 24th November 1799 Barthine MAGNIN (girl)
b) born 30th August 1801 Gabriel (a boy)
c) born 10th January 1803 Etienne (boy)
d) born 30th March 1805 Etiennette (girl)
e) born 6th June 1807 JEANNE
f) born 15th May 1809 Barthélémy (boy)
g) born 9th June 1811 François (boy)
I do hope that all this new information will be helpful for you.
Best regards from Geneva
Al I can say is that there are some very kind people in the world. I want this to be my family Im just confused over the names, and you did say that was an issue. May I ask what do you think? You have been at this a lot longer than I have. Is my Grandfather Pierre Francois (but there is a marriage date problem) or is it Francois Fontaine? The age is closer to Francois..although my friend in Geneva says he always was called Francois there is no indication of a Pierre Francois....
thankyou
Sue
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Given the details you have it seems like François b. 1836 should be yours; he is in the right place, at the right time; parents' names are close, and Pierre married so can't be the one.
Some record from Australia confirming when his birthday was would be one way of making sure. Do you know if your Pierre Francois ever naturalised?
The department of Ain has a good site for genealogy:
http://www.archives-numerisees.ain.fr/
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Hi Jorose thank you for the link and your time to get back to me. I did not even think of naturalisation... I have marriage and death but no birth date as such... I will have a look around. thanks for the help[ I really appreciate it.
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I am new to this site and reading through am so impressed by the help you received with the birth certificate in Switzerland.
I have been trying for years to find out about my great grandfather - Frederick Oeschger - who according to census/birth certs of his children etc was born Switzerland 1847.
We know he spoke German as he used to write in the margins of various 'serious' books - e.g. story of Thomas Carlyle.
He first appears on my grandfather's birth certificate at 5 Noel Street, London 30th November 1874.
He was not at this address in 1871 [census] though the mother of his children was - Emma Payne and her mother Caroline.
I can trace him from 1874 onwards, the birth of his 12 children - although for some reason he never married Emma, his addresses as a father and Master Cabinet Maker and later Antique Dealer till his death in 1926.
He died alone and rather separated from his family as he became slightly eccentric. however try as I may I cannot find his origins.
The name was changed because of the Wars and some called themselves Payne and some Oscar and a combination of the two. He finished up with quite a dynasty but we just do not know where it all started. Please Please can anyone help?.
Fayetta
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Hi, it seems you have quite a problem with the Oeschgers, Osgars, Oscars, Paynes, etc.
In the 1841 Census there is a May Osgar (1790) with daughter Caroline (1822) both born in Middlesex.
But did you notice that in the 1891 Census, Caroline (mother of Head) gives her birth as Middlesex? Here the name is Oeschger which is not only a Swiss name but a German, too.
However, the place of birth is not important for searching ancestors in Switzerland. The records are kept in the town where the person's ancestors originally came from.
To give you an idea: My husband was born in St. Gallen in the Eastern part of Switzerland, as was his father, BUT the family originated from Galgenen in the Kanton (County) Schwyz and here are all the family records. The problem here is that the records are written in the old script (Sutterlin or other old scripts) which one has to learn to be able to understand the them.
It's not impossible and I think more online data are being made available and there is a wonderful Old Scripts Tutorium developed by the University of Zürich for those who can speak and read German:
http://www.adfontes.uzh.ch/1000.php
which gives online courses in reading the various Old German scripts (not just for Switzerland).
So you see, even if people would like to help you, without more information, it will be difficult especially as the name changes and the birth of Caroline Oeschger is maybe not Switzerland.
Maybe someone has an idea, though.....
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I think Caroline "Oeschger" on the 1891 census is an error for Caroline Payne, Emma's mother - she is correctly listed as Caroline Payne, mother-in-law, on the 1881 entry.
Rambler
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Thanks for your interest Rambler - yes you are right and I have explained in an earlier reply with more detail
Fayetta
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Hi
I am researching a family by the name of MUDDOCK. In particular, one of the family members, named Edward Reginald Preston MUDDOCK, was reportedly born in Geneva, Switzerland on 11 September 1886. I would like to be able to confirm this as fact, if possible by accessing a copy of the birth certificate.
I have tried the sites previously identified in this message board but without success; in one case the site could not be accessed.
If anyone can help I would be most grateful.
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With that name he sounds as if he was a British national born in Switzerland... if that's so, have a look at this guidance:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/looking-for-person/bmdatseaorabroad.htm
However he may well have been registered by the Swiss authorities as well....
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My Catholic relatives (both French and French-speaking Belgian) had baptismal names they never used normally = e.g. Honore Charles was "Charles", Pierre Jean Olivier was "Olivier", so that could be what's happening here.
My Dad's maternal grandparents were French and Swiss, and came to Australia in the goldrush years.
Dad's mother and her siblings were all known by their second Christian names; Dad's sisters (but not his brothers, stangely) were all known by their second Christian names too.
Seems to be a pattern ??? ??? ???
Dawn M
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Belated thanks for your help, Graham. Unfortunately, the National Archives link didn't produce an answer although I am reasonably confident of the facts i.e. the name and date/place of birth. Just have to keep exploring other avenues.
Thanks again.