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Some Special Interests => Occupation Interests => Topic started by: nameless on Wednesday 03 February 10 12:18 GMT (UK)
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I have a merchant seaman ancestor who just disappeared, no death certificate in GRO records. I wondered if anyone knows how family were informed if a seaman died? The widow couldn't read and the children were small, so a letter wouldn't have been an option. The men wouldn't necessarily have signed on in their home port so I have wondered about this.
Also how were seamen paid? I'm wondering how their families managed while they were away.
I would appreciate any information.
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A full name, date and place of birth and the year he died/ disappeared would be a big help.
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I also have a merchant seaman whose death I can't find so would be interested to see if anyone has any ideas about how the widow would be notified.
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A full name, date and place of birth and the year he died/ disappeared would be a big help.
The man is (Edward ) Thomas Elliott, born 1827/1828 according to his only entry on 1851 Bristol census. No definite census entry after that although there are lots of men with the same name around the country. According to 1851 he was born in Bristol but I can't find a definite baptism for him or any parents. The last child attributed to him was born 3rd June 1860.
A researcher looked up records and saw that an Edward Thomas Elliott boarded the ship "Hornby" in Bristol in 1854.
His children married in 1865, 1871, 1873, 1882, 1883 and only on the 1873 marriage does it say "father deceased", although on his wife's death cert in 1889 it calls her a widow. After watching shows I wondered if he went to the "Gold Rush".
The GRO couldn't find any entries here or overseas which matched. Lots of people on here have tried to find something about him for me.
I just wondered if he had joined a ship in say Liverpool, then died or disappeared how word would have got to his family?
Thanks.
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HORNBY was a 279 t Barque built in Bristol in 1833 owned in 1854 by C Hill. She undertook a voyage to the West Indies in that year under the command of J Lewin. She was registered in Bristol
Seafaring by it's very nature is a dangerous undertaking, more so in the 19th century. Many men were lost without trace or record of death. I doubt very much if the was a formal response on how a widow would have been notified of her spouse's demise.
Try searching the BT154 and BT 155 series at the National Archive. A trip to Kew would be the way to go.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/browser.asp?CATLN=3&CATID=1625&GPE=False&MARKER=0
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Dear Nameless,
I was a Merchant Navy Officer myself in the 60s. My uncle was a Merchant Seaman during WW2
He lost his nerve during a Convoy over the Atlantic being tracked by U boats, and jumped overboard. They saw him come to the surface behind, but the Ship "Socony" could not pull out of the Convoy or stop to look for him because they would have been attacked and sunk. It was a Tanker (floating bomb). Five of the crew jumped ship upon reaching America and were never seen again, so take what you will from that.
What I'm going to tell you relates to Scotland, but should be much the same in England.
Here we search Scotlandspeople for B/D/Ms in his case it said the death record was held in The Marine Register of Deaths, not on Scotlandspeople.
I made a written request to The General Register Office in Edinburgh for an extract of an entry in the Marine Registry Book. I received a copy of his death certificate giving all personal information and the exact position of the ship at sea where he went missing, 56' 10" North - 14' 08" West.
I also received 8 pages copy of the Ships Log Book, it can be up to 11 pages, giving a concise report on the events leading up to, and following the loss of my uncle, written by the Captain and First Officer. This included fine detail such as a complete list of his personal effects, socks, pants, Razor money etc.
This was given as - Return of Deaths reported to the Registrar-General of Shipping & Seamen under the provisions of the Merchant Shipping Act 1894.
James.
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I have a merchant seaman ancestor who just disappeared, no death certificate in GRO records.
I think it depends on when he died. In the 1850s I'm not sure how it worked, but by the 1880s, if a ship disappeared, the last crewlist they handed over would be used to notify the authorities back home of the likely dead. If it was a British ship he was on, they were obliged to notify the authorities, but I don't know when that started. Have you accessed the crew agreement for ship you're looking into? (the Newfoundland archives hold most of them, or you may be luck and find them in the NMM in London, if the year of loss ended in a 0 or a 5).
I wondered if anyone knows how family were informed if a seaman died?
I think often the family would get an inkling before it was confirmed, that something was wrong. I think it took so long to get official confirmation, that they usually just put two together when thier loved one didn't arrive home after a certain length of time. After that, notices of shipping losses, or missing ships were posted at local shipping offices regularly, after Lloyds (the main underwriters) posted it's lists of missing/lost ships,. These appeared in the newspapers.
The widow couldn't read and the children were small, so a letter wouldn't have been an option.
They may not have been able to read themselves, but someoone would have been able to locally (preists, local business people and such like). So if they got a letter, they'd just ask someone to read it to them - although in such circumstances, I'd imagine they'd suspect there was a problem as soon as the recieved a letter.. But news of a local loss would've spread fast on the local grapevine anyway. In my opinion, these were widespread 'communities', with a global grapevine much like twitter is today! And if someone they knew was headed somewhere, and didn't arrive, the family probably knew about it before the authorities did.
The men wouldn't necessarily have signed on in their home port so I have wondered about this.Also how were seamen paid?
Again, I don't know about the 1850s, but by the 1870s, crew agreements would be lodged in the port of departure and used if a loss was incured (for insurance purposes I'd imagine). And I know from my own research that a proportion of the seaman's wage could have been paid directly to wives at the local shipping office. (I have at least one family member who did that). But I think it was something the mariner would have to 'set up', I don't think it was done automatically.
I know by 1875 telegraph was being used to 'wire' local shipping offices of shipping movements and of observations made by vessels en route (if they saw suspicious debris, say, or if they passed other vessels en route). But again, I don't know when that started.
Don't know if any of that was any use, just my opinion based on my own research in to my many merchan mariners.
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Thank you all for the very helpful and interesting information. The GRO checked overseas deaths for me but I don't know if they would have checked the Marine deaths.
That is so sad about the man going overboard. The men must have suffered so much during the war.
I think I'll start by looking in the local newspaper records just in case anything is reported about the ship. Unfortunately Bristol Record Office doesn't have any crew lists for that time.
I'm very pleased to find out about the Hornby. There seems to have been a few ships named that.
Thank you all again, I have something more to look into now. All of your information gives me more idea about the man's life. He's such a mystery that I am extremely curious to find out anything about him.
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Very interesting and informative for me too.
Have you accessed the crew agreement for ship you're looking into? (the Newfoundland archives hold most of them, or you may be luck and find them in the NMM in London, if the year of loss ended in a 0 or a 5).
Ann, I found this particularly interesting as someone who had done extensive research into part of my ancestry said that my seaman was a deep sea fisherman off the coast of Newfoundland. Is there any particular reason why the records are held in the Newfoundland archives? It sounds a good place for me to investigate but how do I go about that?
He appeared on the 1841 census, can't find him in 1851 and in 1861 his wife was shown as widowed. I have no idea what ship he was on at all.
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He appeared on the 1841 census, can't find him in 1851 and in 1861 his wife was shown as widowed. I have no idea what ship he was on at all.
Then that might be a problem. You do need to know the name of the vessel. Then you can find the Official Number and search the records at the Maritime history archive in New Foundland to see if they hold the agreements for that particular vessel in that particular year.
http://www.mun.ca/mha/
http://www.mun.ca/mha/holdings/searchcombinedcrews.php (http://www.mun.ca/mha/holdings/searchcombinedcrews.php)
I have no idea why they're held there. The Nat Maritime Museum here told me that it was decided that there needed to be one repository for such things, so they let them all go, except a small sample - agreements lodged in years ending in 0 or 5. Seems a bit mad to me, but what do I know - they wouldn't do it for no good reason now would they ::)
But don't give up yet, you may be lucky and be able to find his name on a list somewhere - especially if he died off the Newfoundland coast! Actual crew indexes are few and far between online for some unfathomable reason (someone is missing a trick somewhere I'd say!). But, as you probably know, there are some at Find My Past (only a small percentage of what's actually available sadly) so you could try there. (they were originally available at CLIP, but FindMyPast bought them I think.
But your best bet is probably this this -
http://www.mun.ca/mha/publications.php#New
it's a little expensive, (which is why I haven't bought it yet >:() and there's no guarantees he's listed, but you might want to give it a shot. (I have no idea why they've put it on cd rather than making it fully accessible online - what are we living in, the dark ages? ::) )
If you don't want to go to that expense just yet, I'd suggest, if it was a fishing vessel he was on, and you know it disappeared in Newfoundland waters between c1841 and 1861, I'd suggest concentrating your efforts on the newspapers. Losses were posted by Lloyds so you should easily come up with several likely names in the period. Then you can probably narrow it down further by eeking out all the unlikely vessels - or the most likely ones, such as those from what were his most likely home ports. Perhaps his name will pop up in one of the reports, or perhaps an inquiry may have been held...? That would give you a potential name for a vessel, for which you can find an official number, and then you're back to finding out whether the agreements are held in the NF archive or here, in the NMM.
I hope that helps. Regards, Ann
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Ann, I found this particularly interesting as someone who had done extensive research into part of my ancestry said that my seaman was a deep sea fisherman off the coast of Newfoundland. Is there any particular reason why the records are held in the Newfoundland archives? It sounds a good place for me to investigate but how do I go about that?
He appeared on the 1841 census, can't find him in 1851 and in 1861 his wife was shown as widowed. I have no idea what ship he was on at all.
I have a CD Rom compiled by MUN with the names and details of 182000 seafarers of Atlantic Canada. Crewlists begin in 1863 but details of vessels go's back till 1787. May be worth a quick search. If you can give me a name and date and place of birth.
A third database contains a one per cent sample of crew agreements from non-Canadian (British) vessels which was compiled for comparative purposes. The data is arranged in the same format as the file described above and contains 85,000 records of individual seamen and 19,000 records of masters.
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Seaweed, you may be sorry you mentioned that - you might find yourself beseiged!
And I'll be first in the queue!
Ann
(If you see any Carrick's in your searches, please let me know ;) )
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Daniel born Limerick
Duncan Rothesay
Francis Sunderland
J T Germany
4 John's all Dublin
John James Dublin
Phillip St John NB
All recorded after 1863
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Blimey, you're kidding!
Duncan is mine! I wasn't expecting that!
Is there anymore information attached?
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He's a brother of my 3x great grandfather (also a mariner who was born in Rothesay in 1850 - the family lived there til about 1870) and I've been looking for him everywhere.
Any information you can give me would be wonderful.
Regards Ann
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Oh thank you Ann and seaweed, you've been marvellously helpful.
My ancestor was James BELL, the only information I have about him is that his birthplace was shown as Devon in the 1841 census. He and his family lived in Topsham which used to be the seaport for Exeter, so I would expect that's where he sailed from.
I would be absolutely over the moon if you could find anything for me seaweed. Fingers crossed! (http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Happy/happy-020.gif)
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PS, James was born in about 1800 but that could be 5 or more years out.
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Blimey, you're kidding!
Duncan is mine! I wasn't expecting that!
Is there anymore information attached?
DUNCAN CARRICK
Age 33
Born Rothesay
He was able to write his own name on the crew agreement
He was paid £3.00 advance of wages
Joined the ship CASHIER official number 72178 in Harve Friday 31st Oct 1879
Rank Able Seaman
He deserted the ship in New York City Friday 02 Jan 1880.
Do you want details of the vessel and the captain and owners?
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Oh Seaweed I could kiss you!
This is the first solid evidence we have of his career.
Yes PLEASE!
Thank you so so much.
Ann
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CASHIER Official number 72178
Registration number W876004
Single letters QCWV
Built in 1876 by G & A Sewell, Bass River, Londonderry Nova Scotia
Gross tonnage 1426
Net tonnage 1063
3 decks
3 masts
Length 198ft
Width 38
Depth 22
Port of registry Windsor NS
Sold to Russian interests 1889
Owned 1879 by Thomas E Kenny, Merchant, Halifax NS
Captain in 1879 and for most of her career
Alexander Telfer born Creetown Scotland in 1841
Resident of Londonderry NS
I have an entire crew list with basic information but I think you would be best served in obtaining the originals, 1879/1880 from MUN
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You are an absolute angel!
Thank you so so much!!!
And I love that little man ;D
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A full name, date and place of birth and the year he died/ disappeared would be a big help.
The man is (Edward ) Thomas Elliott, born 1827/1828 according to his only entry on 1851 Bristol census. No definite census entry after that although there are lots of men with the same name around the country. According to 1851 he was born in Bristol but I can't find a definite baptism for him or any parents. The last child attributed to him was born 3rd June 1860.
A researcher looked up records and saw that an Edward Thomas Elliott boarded the ship "Hornby" in Bristol in 1854.
His children married in 1865, 1871, 1873, 1882, 1883 and only on the 1873 marriage does it say "father deceased", although on his wife's death cert in 1889 it calls her a widow. After watching shows I wondered if he went to the "Gold Rush".
The GRO couldn't find any entries here or overseas which matched. Lots of people on here have tried to find something about him for me.
I just wondered if he had joined a ship in say Liverpool, then died or disappeared how word would have got to his family?
Thanks.
It may be worthwhile searching
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATID=5000047&CATLN=6&accessmethod=5
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Oh thank you Ann and seaweed, you've been marvellously helpful.
My ancestor was James BELL, the only information I have about him is that his birthplace was shown as Devon in the 1841 census. He and his family lived in Topsham which used to be the seaport for Exeter, so I would expect that's where he sailed from.
I would be absolutely over the moon if you could find anything for me seaweed. Fingers crossed! (http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Happy/happy-020.gif)
Nothing on your man on the MUN CD. Sorry.
You need to find him on a crew list to give you a lead on a ships name. I suggest you search the piece's BT98/251 to BT98/254 inclusive at the national archive at Kew.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/default.asp
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Seaweed, thank you very much for looking. I'll have a look at the TNA site as you suggest. :)
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I've never used the TNA site before apart from a quick flick through. Am I understanding it correctly that each of the documents will cost me £3.50, so £14 in total for the full lists? I think it will be worth it, just want to make sure that I'm reading it correctly.
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Seaweed, can you see a John [Edward] Boshell anywhere?
He was born about 1842. I have him in the 1861 census, on a ship.[Sorry info not to hand :-[] aged 19 and listed as John Boshall.
He was my gt gr father, and was on my gr mother's birth cert. as 'Master of a Vessel'
Can't find any info on him anywhere.
He died in 1887 in Dublin, where he was born.
Kooky
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I've never used the TNA site before apart from a quick flick through. Am I understanding it correctly that each of the documents will cost me £3.50, so £14 in total for the full lists? I think it will be worth it, just want to make sure that I'm reading it correctly.
To have TNA research those piece numbers I gave you should ask them for an estimate. I very much doubt you would get the documents copied for £14. I think you would be talking in triple figures. You can but ask. A visit to Kew would be your best course.
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Oh dear, can't run to that! A visit to Kew would prove expensive too, I think it will have to wait. Thank you anyway. :)
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Seaweed
Thanks for the reference. Hopefully one day I'll be able to get to the Archives to check.
Thanks again.
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Hi everyone
I hope you don't mind me asking a question on your thread nameless. I have been reading this thread with interest as I have a gg grandfather who was a merchant seaman, he died between 1869 and 1871 but I haven't been able to find any info on him or a death cert.
I think I read somewhere that seaman's records where available to order through LDS centres, does anyone know anything about this and how much it costs or did I imagine this!
Thanks
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does anyone know anything about this and how much it costs or did I imagine this!
I don't think seaman's records are. I think they're only available in the places already mentioned. Is this what you're referring to - the deaths at sea registers?
.RG32 - General Register Office: Miscellaneous Returns of Births, Marriages and Deaths.
These record births, baptisms, marriages, deaths and burials of British subjects, nationals of the Colonies, Commonwealth and countries under British jurisdiction, on British and foreign ships.
These records are available on film, are indexed in RG43 (also filmed) and may therefore be available through the LDS library system.
http://www.mariners-l.co.uk/UKDeathsAtSea.html
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Thank you Ann, yes this is where I've read about deaths at sea, I couldn't for the life of me remember where and what I'd read ::), I've bookmarked the site now and at some point I'll contact the LDS or go in next time I'm in Edinburgh.
Thanks again
Jean :)
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Ann comes up trumps again! (http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Respect/bravo-009.gif)
Mind be worth a try for my James, there's an LDS centre not far from me :)
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Ann comes up trumps again
It's funny, you don't realise how much you take in when you're doing this, but all of a sudden you find yourself knowing stuff you didn't know you knew ;D
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Its funny, you don't realise how much you take in when you're doing this, but all of a sudden you find yourself knowing stuff you didn't know you knew ;D
Ann,
I leave you with the prophetic words from the great American Philosopher, Donald Rumsfeld.
"Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns -- the ones we don't know we don't know."
Or how about :- "I would not say that the future is necessarily less predictable than the past. I think the past was not predictable when it started."
James.
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the great American Philosopher, Donald Rumsfeld.
;D That'll make me laugh all day ;D
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CASHIER Official number 72178
I have an entire crew list with basic information but I think you would be best served in obtaining the originals, 1879/1880 from MUN
Just an after thought.
Duncan Carrick was a 33 year old Able Seaman when he signed on CASHIER. This would suggest he had a previous MN career.
As there were no central records of merchant seamen kept between 1857 and 1919 the easiest way to trace sailors from that period is to back track on crew agreements which usually gave the name of his previous ship.
http://www.mun.ca/mha/holdings/code_f.php
If you intend to order a crew list from MUN, first of all go for the 1880 volume.
Although he deserted in New York City, the actual voyage ended in Bremerhaven on 11.2.1880 so it is more likely he will be in that one. If not you can always look at 1879.
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Thanks seaweed, will do so. (Haven't done it yet fortunately! ;) )
I wish there was some way of coming forward too. I know he was still alive c1894, but have nothing on him after that. He appears to have been very close to my 2x greatgrandfather and I'd love to know what became of him.
Regards,
Ann
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hi, just thought I'd pass this on if it's of any use to anyone researching naval history. I recently visited Kew and prior to that had dealings with them on the phone. Apart from the records which they hold there they also have specialists in different aspects of Naval history and they might be able to answer general questions for you about how widows were informed of deaths at sea etc.
They are always so busy but I did manage to get a bit of time with someone on the phone and they were very helpful and very knowledgable. If you catch them at a quiet time they will take time to advise you on where to look and may have knowledge of these kind of procedures. I think it's worth a try if you are not close to any of the research services.
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Good advice Maggiemck, thanks. Will bear it in mind.
Ann
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My cousin and i have been trying to locate the records of a 'disgraced' merchant seaman for years without success. he was a purser with White Star Line
1917 and Scotland Yard were looking for him- they caught him and he was sent down for stealing money from the Laurentic, just before it was sunk with £7 mill in gold on board !
Any idea how we might find his records. we presume he was from dismissed the merchant marine??
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Hi Seaweed,
Alexander TELFER, born Creetown 1841, ship master, is in my line. I would love to learn more details about him and his career.
Do you know anything about Alexander's brother James TELFER, who was also born in Creetown?
Any advice about where else I could look for more information about these men?
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Sorry for the late reply.
I have found an Alexander Telfer certificate number 27686 passed second mates certificate in Liverpool 1863. I do not know if this is your man.
I suggest you get in touch with London Metropolitan Archive who are custodians of Lloyd's Captains Register. Unfortunately the on line index doesn't cover surnames beginning with T.
It may also pay you to contact National Martime Museum Greenwich to see if they have anything.
http://www.nmm.ac.uk/researchers/library/research-guides/lloyds/lloyds-captains-registers
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Hi Seaweed,
Thanks for the advice. The dates would fit for Alexander to be second mate in 1863 as I believe I have found reference to his masters ticket in 1871. I will follow up the Captain's register and with the Maritime Museum as well.
I have another merchant captain, my ancestor Robert Telfer. I believe he was captain on the 'Vulcan of Glasgow' in the late 1840s. At the time of his marriage in 1851 he was captain of the 'Rotterdam of Glasgow' - old newspaper shipping reports indicated the 'Rotterdam' sailed between Rotterdam, Helvoet, Grangemouth and Glasgow. In the mid 1850s he emigrated to Australia. He was born 1817 in the West Indies, and I would like to get more information about his tickets of trade and the earlier ships he worked on. Any suggestions?
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The merchant seamen records are at Newfoundland because, many years ago,
[as reported in "Queensland Family Historian" June 1992, page 52]
"most 19th Century marine records were thrown out by the
British Board of Trade some time ago, but fortunately they were purchased by
The Maritime History Group, Memorial University of Newfoundland, ST JOHN'S AIC 5S7,
Newfoundland, Canada."
Dawn M
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Can confirm a R Telfer was master of ROTTERDAM in 1852 from Lloyd's Register of Shipping (see attached) If you need help interpreting the entry just shout.
Can find no reference to a vessel named VULCAN of Glasgow circa 1840/1842
I have a Robert Telfer cert 14827 2nd Mate Liverpool 1856 so clearly not the same man.
This site has some very useful links
http://www.crewlist.org.uk/othersites.php
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Thank you all for your help. Do you have any contacts for a researcher I can engage to look up records in Newfoundland?
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Hi,
The Newfoundland Provincial Archives has a list of private researchers on their website. I am not familiar with any of them so I can't recommend one, but at least it is a start.
http://www.therooms.ca/archives/distance_research.asp
The Maritime History Archive will also do research at a rate of $40 CAN per hour plus postage and photocopying.
Jennifer.
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I also have a seaman ancestor who seems to have fallen off the face of the earth. I wonder if you can give me some help?
His name is Samuel Connis born in Glasgow on 1st March 1854.
He was a stoker in the Royal Navy. I have a record of ships he sailed on from 1875 until the last one, Lord Warden in May 1882. I got this from the Nat.Archives.official no.93503.
The only record I can find after this was his son's birth cert. in 1887 which says he is a merchant seaman. He went to sea after this and was never heard from again. I cant find any record of his death, would there have been a record if he had jumped ship? His family never knew what became of him. Hoping some one can help me with this as it has been a brick wall for me for years now. marzipan
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Thank you all for your help. Do you have any contacts for a researcher I can engage to look up records in Newfoundland?
The crew agreement records in Newfoundland start in 1863. so maybe a little bit late for Telfer
http://www.mun.ca/mha/holdings/searchcombinedcrews.php
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Hi Marzipan,
I've just done a quick newspaper search based on the info you've given, but can't seem to see him anywhere either. That's typical of these ancient mariners - they step off a ship wherever the wind's taken them without a thought or care that someone in a hundred years or so might be looking for them. Inconsiderate if you ask me. Perhaps he's gone to the same place as my two missing seamen, never to be heard of again! :'(
Sorry I couldn't be more helpful.
Regards
Ann
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My Grandfather sailed with Isthmian steamship lines in 1933-34.. He was not heard from again. His name was Howard Lyman Carter. He also received a lifeboatman certificate around that time. Where do I start in trying to find out what happened to him.
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Hi Ann,
thanks for trying, he really is a puzzle. I thought even if he jumped ship there would be some record but I just dont know where to find it....
As you say Ann..very inconsiderate. Good luck in finding your missing mariners. marzipan
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Thanks Marzipan, you too.
Looking4grandpa,
I'm not sure how to go about finding mariners from that era. So What have you tried so far? Newspaper records, maritime archives, talking to family members to see what they remember...? If you've exhausted those, the next thing is to start a separate thread on here to give you the maximum possibility of someone seeing it who can help.
And here are some useful websites which might help you:
http://rmhh.co.uk/mariners.html
http://www.mariners-l.co.uk/
http://www.mariners-l.co.uk/UKCoastguards.html
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/MerchantMarine.html
Regards Ann