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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Durham Lookup Requests => Durham => England => Durham Completed Look up Requests => Topic started by: Demeter on Saturday 30 January 10 21:37 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
I wonder if anybody can give me an opinion about this please? I wasn't too sure about which board to put this on, Northumberland or Durham, as it relates to both.
My g-grandmother, Ann Young, married William Taylor in St john the Baptist, Walker on 1 January 1870.
The marriage certificate gives the name of her father as John Young, occupation Cordwainer.
According to census returns for Ann & William Taylor, Ann was born in Gateshead.
The best match I can find for her father John, is a John Yoing, born in Heworth in 1816, married to Hannah, who was also born in 1816. The 1861 census return for John & Hannah gives his occupation as Labourer and Hannah's place of birth as Ponteland.
The only marriage I can find that looks like it might fit John & Hannah is a John Young to Hannah Dixon in Gateshead 1841 (vol 24 pg 93). The problem is, I can't find any trace of a Hannah Dixon born in Ponteland in 1816 - the nearest match I can see is a Hannah Dixon baptised in All Saints, Newcastle in 1814.
Before I go ahead and order a birth certificate, I wonder if any Rootschatters can give me an opinion about whether it's likely that I'm on the right track here?
Thanks
Dem
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Hi Dem,
Is it Hannah's birth cert. you are talking about ordering? If so, there won't be one - none before 1837.
Bear in mind not all baptism records are online - where have you looked?
Christine
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Hi Cside,
Sorry for not being clear. I was thinking about ordering a a marriage cert for John and Hannah. I've only looked online up to now. Visiting T&W archives is difficult as it's only open one Saturday a month
Dem
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I would start with Ann's birth certificate, or baptism, which should give Hannah's maiden name, (edit, Hannah may not be her mother's first name!!) before you look for her parents' marriage certificate.
Have you already looked for this? If you find a couple of likely candidates, the local register offfice should be able to confirm any known facts eg father's name and occupation, before you buy the certificate
Gateshead council have an online bmd search:
http://online.gateshead.gov.uk/bmd/default.aspx
Cordwainer is another name for shoemaker, so John is unlikely to have been a labourer
Barbara :)
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Thanks Barbara :-)
Part of the reason why I suspect it could be the right family is that names have been passed down (though in a family with fairly common names that's no guarantee).
I have thought about ordering the certificate, but the only real possibility as far as I can tell is the Ann Young I've mentioned in my post, but there is the problem that if it's the same Ann, then her father wasn't a cordwainer on the census that I've found. I'm a bit reluctant to spend money on a certificate at this point if I can avoid it, but as you say that might be the solution.
Dem
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Have you got Ann's approx. year of birth to narrow down the search for her birth certificate?
Christine
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1849 Gateshead if she's the one with husband William and daughter Elizabeth on 1871 census :)
There are two possibilities for her birth on freebmd, and as I said, you can check with Gateshead register office for her father's name before buying the certificate.
Sep 1848 Gateshead 24 147
Dec 1850 Gateshead 24 165
The Gateshead council website may have others
Barbara
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Can't see a baptism for Ann on durhamrecordsonline
Have you looked at the Durham Bishops' Transcripts online?
Struggling to find a John Young, cordwainer on any census :-\
Barbara
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Thanks Christine and Barbara,
The only clue I have for Ann's birth date is the 1911 census return, which gives her age as 51, so I'm looking around 1849 - 1852 to give some margin for error, but maybe my margin isn't big enough :-\.
Thanks for the two possible registrations, I'll follow those up.
I've looked at the Bishop's transcripts but couldn't see anything. The only Gateshead parish I could see for those years was Gateshead Fell and she definately wasn't on there, but I've heard that the transcripts weren't kept so rigourously after the introduction of certificates.
Chris - I've had the same problem with John Young - I can't find a cordwainer in any census record. i do know that cordwainers were pretty poor though, so I suppose it would have been possible that he switched from one to the other at some point. It does make it difficult to tie Ann to a particular John Young though.
Dem
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The only clue I have for Ann's birth date is the 1911 census return, which gives her age as 51, so I'm looking around 1849 - 1852 to give some margin for error, but maybe my margin isn't big enough :-\.
1849 Gateshead if she's the one with husband William and daughter Elizabeth on 1871 census :)
Barbara
Do you not have any other census than 1911? Can give details of 1871-1901 if required
Barbara :)
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Ponteland Baptisms: Hannah Dixon baptised 20 Aug 1815 d/o Thomas and Margaret.
Bunch of siblings too
I found one baptism before 1812: Thomas Dixon born 18 July 1811, baptised 29 Dec 1811 1st son of Thomas Dixon, Mason, of Ponteland, Native of Alnwick, by his wife Margaret Lumsden, Native of this parish
Janis
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Hi and thanks Barbara and Janis,
I've found the family on the 1891 & 1901 censuses, living at Henry Pit, Walker.
1891, family as follows:
William Taylor - Head
Ann - wife,
Ann - d
John william - s
Ralph - s
George - s
Samuel - s
Maxwell - s
Hannah Gertrude - d (but baptised Gertrude Hannah)
1901 - still at Henry Pit, but daughter Ann is now called Ann Gilchrist and has a child, Elizabeth aged 1
1911 - living at 543 Shields Rd, Walker
I haven't found them on the 1871 & 1881 census as yet.
Janis - many thanks for the baptism for Hannah. I'll follow this up :-)
Dem
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1881 census RG11 Piece 5085 Folio 111 Page 39 living in Longbenton, Northumberland
1871 census RG10 Piece 5057 Folio 86 Page 11 Gateshead
Barbara :)
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The only clue I have for Ann's birth date is the 1911 census return, which gives her age as 51, so I'm looking around 1849 - 1852 to give some margin for error
Dem,
Could you please confirm the details, this would give her birth about 1859/60. The 1911 entry should also give how long she has been married and the number of children, both living and deceased. Working back from a positive fact is the way to go with this one. I had a quick look last night and came up with the same family as the 'big guns' from the information you gave, but this 1911 information puts a different light on things - unless there was a typo ;)
Regards,
Colin
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Big guns??
Think it's a typo Colin, Ann was aged 62 in 1911
52 in 1901, 42 in 1891, 32 in 1881
unless I've been following the wrong couple!!
Barbara
:)
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Apologies Barbara and Colin - it is a typo :-[ Ann was aged 52 on the 1901 census, not 1911. So she would have been born around 1849/50.
and thanks for the reference for the 1871 census
I've ordered the certs for the births in 1850 & 1848, on the proviso that the father's name is John - fingers crossed!
Dem
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Why the questions marks Barbara, are you being modest ;D
The most likely birth was registered in Q3 1848 but through all census records her dad John was a labourer (I seem to remember that I couldn't find the 1861) and that conflicts with those marriage details. (I've just spotted Dem's reply). I haven't noted the family details but it might be worth the additional expense of getting a siblings marriage to see what John's job was given as.
Another thing that has been buzzing around is the ages of the married couple, Ann is shown as 1 year older than William so there's a possibility that her age has been trimmed a bit and she could have been born earlier than we have looked at. There are 2 possible registrations but I haven't checked census yet.
Colin
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Thanks Colin.
Unfortunately, ordering birth certificates for siblings isn't an option at the minute as I don't have any possible names :(
The labourer/cordwainer thing confuses me too. He's definately listed on the marriage cert as a cordwainer, but like you I've had no joy in finding him on the census, which is a puzzle.
I guess it's possible that he changed tack job wise, but why he would start off as a labourer then become a cordwainer beats me. Hopefully the birth certificates might shed some light on things.
I'm not sure that her age would have been 'trimmed' by much - her youngest child, Gertrude Ann, was born in 1891, which would make Ann 43ish when she was born, but maybe 5 years is possible.
Dem
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Hi Dem,
His job is the root of the problem. A cordwainer would have had to complete an apprenticeship, so a labourer to become one is very unlikely. There is no John Young in the area with that profession, so is there any reason why she would need to make things appear as though she was of better stock?
It's the only suggestion that I can come up with. I've checked all Ann's of the right age born Gateshead through the earlier census, in case she wasn't a Young when registered but nothing seemed likely.
Colin
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His job is the root of the problem. A cordwainer would have had to complete an apprenticeship, so a labourer to become one is very unlikely. There is no John Young in the area with that profession, so is there any reason why she would need to make things appear as though she was of better stock?
I have been wondering about that too so today I had a look at the original marriage entry in the parish records. She is marrying a miner who is the son of a miner so I don't see any reason for 'keeping up appearances'. One thing I did notice was that her signature was very good - a smooth flowing hand which could indicate that she was educated. Her witness, Jane Ann Fenwick, also had a good signature.
Incidentally, Dem, St. John the Baptist is not in Walker but in the centre of Newcastle. I don't know whether this might add another dimension to your research.
Christine
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Hi,
Thanks for taking a look at the marriage record. Ann's husband, Ralph Taylor was a miner, from their addresses on census records, he worked at pits in the Walker area.
The census records for William, Ralph's father, show him as a 'Puddler', which I believe is someone who works with iron and was quite a dangerous job, and then a labourer.
I'm still hoping that the birth certificate sheds some light on it all, always assuming that one of the certificates I've ordered is the right one. The other possibility I've thought of is that Ann wasn't born in Gateshead after all, but maybe the family moved there when she was very young. She wouldn't be the first person in my family who was recorded as being born in one place but baptism or registration took place somewhere else altogether, in which case I'll have the devil of a job tracking her down
Dem
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I had a quick browse of Historical Directories and checked for cordwainers but there weren't any, so then checked shoemakers but there was no Young shown. This was about 1858.
Another Directory showed there was a John Young shopkeeper, and a couple of other Youngs.
I didn't have a lot of time to check, so it might be worth re-checking.
Colin
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Thanks for that Colin, it looks as though the mystery continues.....
Dem
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Hi to Colin, Christine & Barbara
I just thought I'd update this before I marked it completed.
I've now got Ann Young's bIrth cert.
Born 30/05/1848
Parents:
John Young, labourer
and Hannah Young, formerly Dixon.
So it appears that the cordwainer was an redherring (or more likely a mistake on my part somewhere along the line - apologies for that).
Hannah Dixon was definately born in Ponteland and I've been able to find her parents and a few siblings :)
Thanks again for all of your help
Dem
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Thanks for letting us know, Dem. It's much appreciated.
It certainly sounds as though you have the right one now. Good luck with your research.
Colin
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Cordwainer was definitely the red herring but not your mistake - that's what it said on the parish marriage entry.
At least you know that your're on the right track now.
Happy hunting
Christine
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Thank you for letting us know, glad to have helped a little,
good luck
Barbara :)
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dear ecneps. I have beenn refered to this link in relation to MickJB who was looking for Lancelot Gibson 1841. i am a direct descendent of Lancelot Gibson. my father is 87 and would like to know if he has any living relatives.
I need to get in touch with MickJB. Can you help? thanks
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Hello canora
Welcome to rootschat :)
Best to remove your email address in case of spam
I see you replied asking MickJB to get in touch on this other post:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,251850.msg2999564.html#msg2999564
When you have made another reply (just reply to this one if you like) you'll be able to send MickJB a personal message, by clicking on the little green scroll under his name on the other post, where you asked him to get in touch
he hasn't been online since Feb 08, but should get notification of your message on there
Kind regards
Barbara
:)