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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Derry (Londonderry) => Topic started by: Dave MacLurg on Saturday 30 January 10 17:56 GMT (UK)
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My great grandmother was Mary Collins (1838-1918). She came from Desertmartin. Her Father was John Collins and her mother Mary Witherow. She had brothers James, John and Stuart and a sister Jane.
Does this ring any bells with anyone who can give me further information?
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Welcome to Rootschat. I've moved your post from IRELAND RESOURCES to LONDONDERRY/DERRY board but if this Desertmartin isn't the one in Co, Londonderry then please let me know and I'll move it to the correct board.
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Hi,
I have found a Mary Collins who married William McClorg (sic) in Lecumpher Presbyterian Church on 7 Apr 1868. I also found the following children of this marriage
Alexander McClorg 3 Mar 1869 Londonderry
John McClorg 1 May 1874 Londonderry
David McClorg 29 Dec 1875 Limavady Co Londonderry
Martha Elizabeth McClurg Templemoyle Londonderry.
Looking at your user name I wondered if there had been a change in spelling.
Regards
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Thank-you for such an immediate reply.
Yes these are mine. Alexander was my grandfather. There was also a child called Anna. The name was changed by the children of William & Mary who believed that the original spelling was MacLurg as found in Galloway.
What is the source of your information and is there any more?
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Hi,
Sources are Emerald Ancestors, a subscription site, and a parent search on the IGI which is part of www.familysearch.org. Neither source lists all birth and marriages but they do prove useful.
Regards
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Hi,
I have found a couple of items of interest.
A Jane Collins married James Lamb in Lecumpher Presbyterian Church on I Jun 1855
A James Collins married Sarah Ann McClorg in Largy Presbyterian Church Limavady on 15 Jul 1852
The latter may only be of note as I had never come across this spelling before and then to find it twice in one day!!
Regards
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Largy is the local Presbyterian church for the farm at Templemoyle in Co. Derry, which was the home of the McClorgs/MacLurgs.
Also William McClorg and Sara Ann McClorg were brother and sister just as Mary and James Collins were sister and brother.
I have Jane Collins marrying Henry Brown. They had six children and we knew their grand daughter, Jean Brown, who lived in Toronto. Maybe Jane was married twice or this is a different Jane.
All good grist to the mill!
Thank-you
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Dave,
The McClurgs of Templemoyle were a prominant family in the area. If you google McClurg Templemoyle Genealogy a variety of sites come up.
Regards
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My great grandmother was Mary Collins (1838-1918). She came from Desertmartin. Her Father was John Collins and her mother Mary Witherow. She had brothers James, John and Stuart and a sister Jane.
Does this ring any bells with anyone who can give me further information?
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Can you help me I am trying to trace my Grandfather. His name John Collins.
His father was James Collins His mother Sarah Ann McClorg We think he was born in Longfield, County Derry around 1867. We have no birth date. He came to New Zealand we think as a teenager with his father James. He married and died in NZ.
My uncle (now deceased) visited Ireland after the WW2 and said he had siblings that all moved to Canada. I believe they were Presbyterians. I would like to obtain his birth certificate if possible but am having a great deal of trouble finding him and the family. Any info anyone could share or help with would be very much appreciated.
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Welcome to Rootschat, Susan.
There are two births in IGI (International Genealogical Index at www.familysearch.org) which might pertain to your family-
1. James Alexander Collins, born 16 Dec.1865 Draperstown district (page 706 in civil register), parents- James Collins & Sarah Ann McClory
2. female born 21 June 1872 Draperstown district (page 853 in civil register), parents- James Collins & Sarah Anne McClerg
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Thank you. Now how do I tell which one is which. Great grandad James Collins died and was buried in NZ. I have just ordered a copy of his original death certificate. We hope to find more clues.
There are anomalies in spelling of the name McClorg between death cert and marriage cert so who knows - possibly it sounded like McClorg. It could be very different. We don't even have a year of birth but estimated it from his age at death. This may not have been correct either.
Is there anyway to find out if these two traveled to NZ. It is interesting to note John Collins married my grandmother Ella Pahl in NZ. They had 5 daughters and 1 son. The second to youngest daughter was named Alexandra. I thought this was unusual but it may have been a family name.
Thank you again I am still learning to find my way around these websites. Would John and James Collins have anything to do with Desertmartin.
Is that s farming estate.
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Longfield is the name of a townland of approx. 441 acres in County Londonderry. It is in the civil parish of Desertmartin and the Poor Law Union/Registration district of Magherafelt.
Spelling of names could vary quite a bit so don't be too concerned about McClorg, McClurg, etc.
Civil registration of births started in 1864 and it's possible that your James Collins was actually born slightly earlier than 1867- also remember that the IGI is not complete and if he was born 1864 or later his birth should appear in the civil registration index (under Magherafelt registration district). However, as Collins is a fairly common surname in this area it may be difficult to tell if he is one of the births listed.
http://search.labs.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#p=collectionDetails&c=fs%3A1408347
At the time of the 1901 census there was a John Collins and wife Agnes living at Longfield-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Londonderry/Inniscairn/Longfield/1544323
Also a Stewart Collins listed as a visitor in this household-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Londonderry/Inniscairn/Longfield/1544322
By the 1911 census the only Collins in Longfield is a 13 year old girl named Agness but her religion is listed as Roman Catholic and she the stepdaughter of Robert Johnson whose wife's name is Mary:
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Iniscarn/Longfield/610475
Think this is young Agnes with her parents in 1901 census and they are unlikely to be related to your Collins family.
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Londonderry/Lough_Enagh/Cloghole/1528062
Another online resource are Wills on PRONI website (www.proni.gov.uk).
"The Will of Stewart Collins late of Longfield County Londonderry Farmer who died 9 January 1893 at same place was proved at Londonderry by John Collins of Longfield and Henry Brown of Ballygowan both said County Farmers the Executors." Mentions wife Mary Ann, son John, daughter Martha, youngest son Stewart (I love the bit about the piano he is thinking of buying). The sons John and Stewart would seem to be the 2 found in 1901 census.
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Details of Stewart Collins' family from www.familysearch.org-
Stewart Collins (born c1840), son of John Collins, m.(4 June 1867 Magherafelt dist.) Mary Crosset(t), daughter of Richard.
1. John born 12 Nov.1868 Draperstown (submitted record)
2. Essie born 12 May 1870 Co.Londonderry
3. Martha born 25 Oct.1872 Draperstown dist.
4. Richard born 8 Apr.1875 Co.Londonderry
5. Stewart born 1 Feb.1879 Co.Londonderry
There's also a married for a Stewart Collins July/Sept.1879 Magherafelt district. Added- Tobermore Presbyterian Church, 31 Jul 1879, Stewart Collins, full age, widower, farmer, Longfield, John Collins, farmer, ?to Mary Ann Clark, full age, spinster...
It would seem that Mary (Crossett) Collins died around the time of Stewart's birth Feb.1879 and Stewart, Sr. remarried a short while later (not surprising with such a young family to look after)
However, even more interesting is this birth registration: Henry Stewart M'Clorg Collins Oct./Dec.1883 Ballymena registration district (Co.Antrim)
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Hi Im back and more confused than ever. I recieved a copy of Great Grand dads NZ death cert today. He is buried at Atawhai in Nelson NZ. However just when I thought I would get some follow up clues there was very little.
He died August 1913 and is listed as being 86 yrs. Who knows if this was right. This makes his birthdate around 1827. His occupation is listed as Farmer. His father was listed as John Collins and his mother christian name is unknown but her maiden name was - and the writing is so terrible its hard to tell Nathenill - does that sound irish ??? It could be Mothenill - the handwriting is that bad.
Then I thought I'd struck gold when I saw the posting James Collins married Sarah Anne McClorg in Largy Church in 1852. I got quite excited about this and wrote to the Church who referred me back to the proni website and there are NO Collins's there I can find. (This could be my bad search skills)
So where was my very elusive grandfather John Collins born beside the obvious and how do I find his birth cert.
It continually puzzles me as to why John and James came to NZ. This means wife Sarah was either left at home or had died and Johns sister must have stayed at Longfield and possibly married or was deceased. So somewhere there must be a record of Sarah Anne Collins (Nee McClorg) dying and being buried and same for Collins sister or being married
John Collins had an one older sister - she is listed on James death certificate as being 5 years older than John. Reading the posts I wonder if John was christened John or something else. The family seen very reticent to give out much information.
What I need to do is find enough information to locate John Collins birth cert. This seems a very difficult task as I want to travel to the UK for a visit and by giving my Irish parentage I may be able to stay a bit longer. My ancestry is very mixed as I have german and polish as well as it would be lovely to have the time to visit some of the places they lived.
Someone told me hire a professional (any one got any recommendations)but I am not sure how you go about this. I did refer this info onto someone in Ireland who said they would find the birth cert but have come up empty handed.
Thanks everyone for all the interesting posts. I rush in at the end of the day to look at them. My Uncle visited some Irish relations during the War when he served as a bomber pilot in WW2. I just remember the stories my mother told. James and John came seeking gold and NZ did have a gold rush in 1860s. I would guess they had left Ireland by 1900.
I am not sure were to from here.
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To start with, civil registration of births in Ireland started in 1864 and there are no birth certificate before that date. Church records (where they still survive) may list names of both parents (although not always mother's maiden name) or just the father's name.
Your first post on this thread said John Collins, son of James Collins & Sarah McClorg, was born c1867. From that I assumed you knew that to be true. However, the death certificate makes this fairly impossible so let's start again and see what we can find.
John Collins (grandfather) born c1867? Is he the one who had an older sister? (this is, I think, first we've heard of her) What was her name? when was she born?
You need to work back step by step so next logical bit of information needed is the name of your grandfather's parents- John? Collins and ?. Does his marriage or death certificate give you her name and/or location for John's birth? Once we have a name for John's mother we can look for the marriage in Irish records (civil registration of non-Catholic marriages started in 1845) and then see what church records might survive in the area.
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Susan, From my family tree:-
John Collins married Mary Witherow who was born in 1801 in Dungiven, Co. Londonderry
They had 5 children
John Collins m Sara Moreland and died in Ballymena
Stuart Collins m(1) Martha Crossit m(2) Mary Anne Clark
James Collins m 1852 Sarah Ann McClorg b 1836 (your great grandparents)
Jane Collins b 1836 m 1861 Henry brown b1830
Mary Collins b1838 d1918 m1868 William McClorg b1832 d1920 (my great grandparents)
John and Sara had 4 children Stuart, William, Hubert & Sadie
Stuart and Martha had 3 children I know of Martha, Stewart, John and according to aghadowey 2 more Essie and Richard
James and Sarah Ann had 3 children; John who went to NZ, Alexander James & Elizabeth who married William Bradley
Jane and Henry Brown had 6 children; Tom, John, Joseph, Martha, Harry,Sam most seem to have gone to Toronto, Canada
Mary and William McClorg had 5 children; Alexander (My grandfather), Anna, John
David (from who I got much of my information), Martha (who married John Smythe and went to New Zealand where their son, Arch, died in 2004)
The 1901 Census has Sara Anne Collins (no mention of James, her husband). living in the household of Blanche May Collins. Blanche was the wife of Alexander James Collins (your grandfather's brother) The 1911 census has Alexander at home (he was a commercial traveller in woolens) but there is no mention of Sara Ann who had, presumably, died.
1901 census has John Collins in Longfield married to Agnes.This John Collins would be the son of Stewart Collins and Martha Crossit
1901 and 1911 Census have Henry Brown and household in Ballygowan
McClorg was the spelling of my family name up until my grandfater , Alexander) and his siblings changed it to MacLurg because they thought it was the original spelling of the name when the family came from Scotland back in 1600s
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WOw Thank you Dave. That is so exciting - We have an extensive family history here that traces the family from the time they arrived in NZ but beyond that no one knows. I started by looking for my Grandads birth cert and then you find all these snippets of information and you cannot help wondering what happened and why. This makes us cousins ??? Kai ora Cuz.
James and John came to NZ together
. Maybe the intention was to bring the rest of the family out later - who knows. James died in 1913. He had senile dementia and was buried in Atawhai, Nelson. I never knew he was there until I recently got his death cert. I would have visited his grave as many other family members are buried there.
John married my Grandma Ella Annie Pahl (German/English) their family gave to NZ with the NZ Company in 1842 - They were farming in Tadmor, Nelson NZ.
John and Annie had Pearl, Iva, Sadie, Nancy, Alexander (who returned to England and RAF during WW!!) and my mother Patricia.
John Collins is buried in Palmerston North, NZ.
My mother Patricia married Harold Delany (those Irish names keep popping up)
and then there was me Susan.
I have four children. 3 boys and 1 girl.
If John and James came to NZ to seek gold they would have been a bit late for the goldrush as it was mostly over by the time they arrived. They survived the great depression here which was a very difficult time. My mother told me stories of her childhood so maybe they didnt have the option of making it back to Ireland. John worked very hard on the railways for years.
I have a person - a friend of a friend trying hard to locate Johns birth cert in Ireland. He was under the impression that Johns birth may not have been registered. You may be able to help there.
I wondered what happened to Sarah and to the other siblings. Thank you Thafor your post Susan
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Do you have a birth date for John Collins (James Collins/Sarah Ann)
There is little information on death and marriage certs here. We have had to piece together things from old family stories and guess work. The German side of the family is very precise. We didn't even have Christian names for some.
Our family wins a prize for the slow turnover of generations..... Thanks again for all your help Susan
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I attach some images of interest. from a family bible. They show the brith dates of William (my great grandfather) who married Mary Collins, Sara Ann (your great grandmother), Elizabeth and Mary. These are the children of Alexander and Elizabeth McClorg.
An interesting footnote. You see Mary was scored out and written in again. She eloped with a farmhand and was persued by her father who caught up with them at the quay in Derry City. A fight ensued and Alexander lost and eye or at least damaged it. The Cork Examiner has an article describing a retailiatory attack by the farmhand's relatives who invaded the house at Templemoyle and attackes Alexander and his som William. We speculate (no evidence available) that Mary was scored out when she eloped but written back in by her mother later.
You can see photographs of William mcClorg and mary Collind on my web site at http://www.maclurg.com/Genealogy/index.htm
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Susan,
Send me your email so I can send you a family tree from my computer showing all I know of the Collins descendants. My email address is (*)
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The 1911 Census ties in some data and clarifies some.
Aghadowey mentioned that the 1901 census had a Stewart Collins visiting a John Hassan. Also the 1901 census had John Collins and wife Agnes living at Longfield
I had a sister of Stewart and John married to Alexander H Mussen.
What the 1911 census shows is the family of John Collins and Agnes. Their oldest daughter is named Martha Mussen Collins so these all show a close relationship between the Mussens and the Collins as well as tying together the information about John and Stewart and Agnes. The 1911 census shows Agnes' parents living with them and this shows he maiden name to be Smyth.
Regards
Dave
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Hi,
I have found a couple of items of interest.
A Jane Collins married James Lamb in Lecumpher Presbyterian Church on I Jun 1855
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Thanks for providing me my great-great grandparents marriage date and location. I live just a few miles from Desertmartin and can provide information on the Lamb and other descended branches of the Collins family
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Susan, From my family tree:-
John Collins married Mary Witherow who was born in 1801 in Dungiven, Co. Londonderry
They had 5 children
John Collins m Sara Moreland and died in Ballymena
Stuart Collins m(1) Martha Crossit m(2) Mary Anne Clark
James Collins m 1852 Sarah Ann McClorg b 1836 (your great grandparents)
Jane Collins b 1836 m 1861 Henry brown b1830
Mary Collins b1838 d1918 m1868 William McClorg b1832 d1920 (my great grandparents)
...
Jane and Henry Brown had 6 children; Tom, John, Joseph, Martha, Harry,Sam most seem to have gone to Toronto, Canada
Now this is where things get confusing for me and will be for you as well.
A Jane Collins married James Lamb in Lecumpher Presbyterian Church on I Jun 1855, and they had the following children:
- John Jamb m. Isa Smith
- Samuel Lamb
- Thomas Lamb
- James Lamb
- Annie Lamb
- Minnie Lamb
- Margaret Lamb
- Barbara Lamb m. Thomas McClelland
- Stewart Lamb b. 1865, d. 1930 (my great-grandfather)
This Jane Collins married James Lamb in 1855 and they had my great-grandfather in 1865, four years after your Jane Collins married Henry Brown. Surely they can't be the same person and have to be cousins.
What makes it more confusing is the fact that Stewart Lamb names one of his daughters (one of my grandmothers sisters) - Annie Witherow Lamb. As it was a common practice then to give a middle name to a child that was the maiden name of the mother, grandmother or other female relation, this could suggest that your Mary Witherow (mother of your Jane Collins) is Stewart Lamb's grandmother.
Whether that assumption is right or wrong, it does provide strong circumstantial evidence that my Jane Collins from Desertmartin is related to your Collins from Desertmartin. The problem is how they fit in together.
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I've been trying to find out more about Witherows and got this reply
--1821 census Auglish, Banagher [T808/15137]
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--No 4
--Joseph Witherow, aged 60 farmer of 12 acres
--Mary, wife, 56
--James, 26
--George, 23
--Joseph, 15
--Mary, 20 * [could be your Mary who married John Collins?]
--Fanny, 13
from Gortinanima
on Witherow families, Aughlish, Gallony, Belfast and elsewhere
This Mary looks like she is mine. Maybe her younger sister Fanny also married a Collins.
Let me know if you find anything.
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The 1911 Census ties in some data and clarifies some.
Aghadowey mentioned that the 1901 census had a Stewart Collins visiting a John Hassan. Also the 1901 census had John Collins and wife Agnes living at Longfield
I had a sister of Stewart and John married to Alexander H Mussen.
What the 1911 census shows is the family of John Collins and Agnes. Their oldest daughter is named Martha Mussen Collins so these all show a close relationship between the Mussens and the Collins as well as tying together the information about John and Stewart and Agnes. The 1911 census shows Agnes' parents living with them and this shows he maiden name to be Smyth.
Regards
Dave
Hi Dave,
I have Martha W. Collins marrying Alexander Mussen 20 Aug 1899 Largy P, Limavady. She must have died soon after as Alexander is found remarrying in the US in 1902. Do you have any records of her death or any other Mussen family information.
Thank you! G.
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George,
My information about the Collins connection is sadly lacking. I do not have the information for which your are looking. All the best.
Dave
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I am looking to clarify some of my family tree.
My Dad was Alexander John Collins 1919-2003, son of John Collins 1867-1941 and his grandfather was James Collins, who died in Nelson New Zealand in 1913. I know James came to NZ and that his sons John and Alexander followed him when they were about 17(why we don't know?). John stayed in NZ and married Ella Annie Pahl and had a family Pearl, Ivor, Sadie, Nancy, Alexander (my Dad) and Patricia. His Dad John died in 1941 , just before my Dad was sent overseas.
His uncle Alexander returned to Great Britain,married and lived just out of London. My Dad was in RNZAF and also RAF, stationed in UK and went to see his uncle's daughter and family while there. Unfortunately ,my Dad could not remember names but did know his uncle was a milliner and maybe in the rag trade. I don't think Alexander was still alive when Dad saw family.
My Dad returned to NZ and married my Mum, Ethel Wallace, who came from Scotland as a war bride.
Dad and I finally tracked down a copy of James and Sarah Ann McClorg's wedding certificate, but I have been unable to find if she died prior to him coming to NZ or if she came with him/he left her behind? I am just waiting on a copy of James's death certificate, to see if he was a widower or not when he died. I have visited his grave at Wakapuaka Cemetery Nelson, where a number of my extended family are buried(my grandmother's family came into Nelson in 1842 and her husbands family came in 1843) It was one of the pioneer cemeteries in Nelson NZ.
I would just like to know what happened to Sarah Ann, as I have managed to trace a great deal of history back from her father.
Can any one help please? Frances
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Dad and I finally tracked down a copy of James and Sarah Ann McClorg's wedding certificate, but I have been unable to find if she died prior to him coming to NZ or if she came with him/he left her behind? I am just waiting on a copy of James's death certificate, to see if he was a widower or not when he died. ...
I would just like to know what happened to Sarah Ann, as I have managed to trace a great deal of history back from her father.
Can any one help please?
Reply #16- The 1901 Census has Sara Anne Collins (no mention of James, her husband). living in the household of Blanche May Collins. Blanche was the wife of Alexander James Collins (your grandfather's brother) The 1911 census has Alexander at home (he was a commercial traveller in woolens) but there is no mention of Sara Ann who had, presumably, died.
She's actually Sarah Anne Collins in 1901 census-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Clifton_Ward__Belfast/Old_Park__part_of_/978074
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai000344038/
Sarah died 29 Mar.1906-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1906/05573/4565043.pdf
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Thank you so much, I just wished Dad had lived long enough to know I finally solved the mystery(or at least part of it!) Frances
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Susan, From my family tree:-
John Collins married Mary Witherow who was born in 1801 in Dungiven, Co. Londonderry
They had 5 children
John Collins m Sara Moreland and died in Ballymena
Stuart Collins m(1) Martha Crossit m(2) Mary Anne Clark
James Collins m 1852 Sarah Ann McClorg b 1836 (your great grandparents)
Jane Collins b 1836 m 1861 Henry brown b1830
Mary Collins b1838 d1918 m1868 William McClorg b1832 d1920 (my great grandparents)
I think you have the wrong Stuart Collins as the son of John Collins and Mary Witherow. The Stewart Collins who married Martha Crossett and then Mary Ann Clark was the son of John Collins and a Martha. He was born about 1840 going by his death record.
The Stuart Collins mentioned as being the son of John and Mary is different and had a daughter called Jane Collins born between 1840-1849 going by her death record. She married a James Lamb and when one of their sons, Stewart Lamb, had a child, they were named Annie Witherow Lamb with her middle name clearly referring to Stewart's great-grandmother. I would be tempted to say the two Stuart/Stewart Collins were the same but it is impossible considering the fact Jane daughter of Stuart Collins was born about the same decade as Stewart Collins.
I will throw the above all up into the air after looking at the death records of Stewart Collin's parents. John died in Longfield in 1881 aged 82. His wife Martha died in 1889 aged 86. Stewart was present at both deaths and Martha's record clearly states that she was the widow of Jn Collins and that Stewart was her son. This means that their estimated years of births would be more in line with John Collins and Mary Witherow rather than their son John Collins. This would lend credence to Stuart and Stewart being the same person, however Stewart's estimated year of birth and the estimated year of birth of Jane daughter of Stuart rules that out unless their is a very big error somewhere, which is possible.
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A newspaper obit for a James Collins in 1851, states he was the son of the late Stewart Collins of Desertmartin. As the other Stewart died in 1893 this would confirm they are not the same person.