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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: Old Bristolian on Saturday 30 January 10 17:03 GMT (UK)
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My great uncle, Francis William Flexney was killed at the Battle of the Aisne in September 1914. He was serving in the 1st Bt, South Wales Borderers. He had previously served in the Regiment, but in 1914 was a reservist. I had assumed his previous time with SWB would have been served in the same battalion, but I think I have now found him in the 1911 Census with the second Battalion in Pretoria, South Africa. Would a reservist just be put into a battalion which needed making up to war strength, rather than in the one he had previously served in? - the 2nd were in China in 1914 I think.
Also can anyone let me know the whereabouts of the 2nd Battalion in the period 1901-14. Family stories relate that he served in India at some time in his first tour of duty
Steve
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Also can anyone let me know the whereabouts of the 2nd Battalion in the period 1901-14.
Certainly.
1900-04 South Africa
1904 Jun-Dec Aldershot, England
1904 (Dec) - 1906 (Oct) Tidworth, England
1906 (Oct) - 1908 (Sept) Aldershot again
1908 (Sept) - 1910 (Jan) Chatham
1910 (Jan) - 1912 (Oct) South AFrica
1912 (Oct) - 1914 (Sept) Tientsin, China
rest of 1914 Tsingtao/Hong Kong
back to UK Jan 1915
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Hi Steve
Men enlisted in the regiment and not the battalion, so after initial training in the depot he would be sent to one or other of the two SWB regular battalions. He was always liable to be transferred to the other one, or back to the depot, as required. As a Reservist he was obviously posted to the one stationed at home, rather than to the one in China. The Reserves were recalled to fight against Germany after all.
His medal index card is on Ancestry. He is Private 8548 Frank W Flexney. He landed in France 13 August 1914. There is a note saying that the officer in charge of records was requesting permission to dispose of his medals, dated 30 June 1922. They would have tried to deliver them to the last address they had for his family. They would then have been sent to Woolwich and re-cycled 10 years later.
His service record does not appear to have survived WW2 bombing. All you can really do is to research when 8548 was issued, either at the SWB museum or on the Great War Forum. Once you have his enlistment date, even approximately, you should be able to work out the type of service he had enlisted under.
http://www.1914-1918.net/swb.htm
You can follow the war diary link. The entry for the 26th September starts – The most ghastly day of my life and yet to one of the proudest because my Regiment did its job and held on against heavy odds.
He was one of four officers (named) and 86 men (unnamed) killed that day.
The 1st Battalion were in India until December 1910. So he may have been in the 1st Battalion and transferred to the 2nd, probably out east. Or the story of him being in India refers to the 2nd Bn passing through on the way to China.
Ken
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There is a short entry for him in De Ruvigny's Roll of Honour, 1914-1924, available on Ancestry giving just basic information.
Ken
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Thanks Neil & Ken
The information you have provided answers all my questions - it looks like he either transferred battalions at some time or the "India service" family story is possibly a mistake. I have to admit my grandmother's sense of geography wasn't all it should have been - she told me she would have liked to visit her brothers' graves in France (both her brothers were killed in the war) but didn't realise she would have to cross the sea!
I have seen most of the documents you give - an interesting point about the medals, as I thought I had seen them as a child, so perhaps the family did claim them at some time. Frank is commemorated on the memorial at St Ferte sous Jouarre as one of the killed/missing of the Aisne with no known grave. I have, however, visited the site of the battle of 26th September 1914 and there is a small cemetery with several SWB graves with no identifacation, so I feel he must be buried there.
The 1911 Census gives him as Henry Flexney - correct age & the place of birth.although garbled (R--land, Bristol, Glam) looks possible. I don't know of any other Flexney that this could be
Steve
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Hi Steve,
I've been trying to trace further details of a friend's relative who was also in the First Battalion, South Wales Borderers. His name is George Henry Goldsmith. The Ancestry.com records imply he joined up in Stratford, and his address (as shown on the Bethnal Green memorial's Roll of Honour) was 92 Gosset Street, Bethnal Green.
His service record was destroyed, so I do not know when he joined. I have seen that a George Joseph Walter Atkinson joined on 21 January 1907 (S/N 9508), and from Clapton a Montague Solomon joined on 20 September (S/N 9717). Given that my relative's number is 9668, I'm working on the assumption that he joined around August 1907.
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Below is a list of the other ranks buried at La Ferte Sous Jouarte who were in the South Wales Borderers
This information has been taken from the CWGC website
Name Rank S/N Date Of Death Age
ABRAHAMS, RICHARD, R Private 7201 18/09/14 36
ADAMS, CHARLES, C Private 7272 26/09/14 Unknown
ALLEN, THOMAS WILLIAM, T W Lance Corporal 7885 21/09/14 Unknown
AYLWIN, FREDERICK JAMES, F J Private 8111 26/09/14 28
BAGGIN, RICHARD, R Private 8252 26/09/14 Unknown
BELCHER, ARTHUR, A Private 7815 26/09/14 33
BINNING, HERBERT, H Private 10303 26/09/14 Unknown
BISHOP, LEONARD NEWMAN, L N Private 9416 26/09/14 28
BRADLEY, HENRY CHARLES, H C Private 8734 27/09/14 26
BUFTON, WILLIAM ARTHUR, W A Serjeant 8739 26/09/14 26
BURKE, THOMAS, T Private 7424 19/09/14 32
BUTT, OWEN, O Private 9234 26/09/14 Unknown
CLARK, THOMAS JOHN, T J Lance Corporal 8114 26/09/14 28
CLIFFORD, WILLIAM THOMAS, W T Lance Serjeant 7975 18/09/14 28
COCKLIN, JAMES, J Private 8811 18/09/14 27
COLE, HARRY, H Lance Corporal 8669 16/09/14 Unknown
COLTMAN, ARCHIBALD, A Private 8429 16/09/14 28
COOK, EDWARD JOHN, E J Private 8161 26/09/14 32
COULSON, GEORGE, G Corporal 8821 15/09/14 28
CUNNINGHAM, WILLIAM, W Private 8700 26/09/14 27
DANIELS, ROBERT, R Private 7229 26/09/14 Unknown
DAVIES, CLIFFORD JEFFREY, C J Private 10854 26/09/14 Unknown
DICKINSON, HERBERT, H Private 6396 26/09/14 Unknown
DUMPER, FRANK HENRY, F H Private 7887 04/10/14 Unknown
DUNN, THOMAS, T Private 10869 26/09/14 Unknown
DYKES, THOMAS, T Private 7827 14/10/14 Unknown
ELLIOTT, EDWIN WILLIAM, E W Private 13097 26/09/14 37
ELMORE, ALFRED, A Private 10905 26/09/14 Unknown
FIELDING, THOMAS, T Private 8391 26/09/14 29
FISH, ROBERT JOSEPH, R J Private 10995 26/09/14 Unknown
FLEXNEY, FRANK WILLIAM, F W Private 8548 26/09/14 30
FORKNALL, JAMES, J Private 9114 26/09/14 33
FRANKLIN, WILFRED NOEL, W N Private 8115 26/09/14 28
GANE, FREDERICK, F Private 10731 15/10/14 19
GARDNER, JOHN, J Private 7080 26/09/14 Unknown
GEOGHAN, WILLIAM, W Private 9003 26/09/14 Unknown
GERRARD, WALTER, W Private 8091 26/09/14 28
GOLDSMITH, GEORGE, G Lance Corporal 9668 18/09/14 Unknown
GOLDSTONE, CHARLES EDWARD, C E Private 10661 14/09/14 Unknown
GRACE, THOMAS, T Private 11080 17/09/14 Unknown
HANDS, JOHN, J Private 6269 26/09/14 Unknown
HARDING, CHARLES ARTHUR GEORGE, C A G Private 7936 16/09/14 30
HARDY, ALFRED, A Private 7918 19/09/14 28
HARRIS, ERNEST, E Private 8380 16/09/14 28
HARRIS, WILLIAM, W Private 11722 24/09/14 Unknown
HOOPER, EDGAR CHARLES, E C Private 6513 26/09/14 Unknown
HOWCROFT, HENRY, H Private 8740 27/09/14 Unknown
HUFTON, ROBERT BARRAND, R B Private 7836 15/09/14 32
INSKIP, ROBERT, R Private 8061 26/09/14 Unknown
JENKINS, LEONARD, L Lance Corporal 7814 03/10/14 30
JENNINGS, HENRY, H Private 11773 01/10/14 Unknown
JONES, GWILYM GEORGE, G G Lance Corporal 10939 14/09/14 Unknown
JORDAN, GEORGE OSCAR, G O Private 8234 26/09/14 Unknown
KILEY, THOMAS, T Private 11081 26/09/14 22
KYLE, ALEXANDER WILLIAM, A W Private 10046 18/09/14 Unknown
LAWTON, WILLIAM JOHN, W J Private 8378 26/09/14 34
LEE, SIDNEY, S Private 10767 19/09/14 21
LEWIS, DAVID JOHN, D J Private 7904 27/09/14 30
LEWIS, EDWARD JOHN, E J Lance Corporal 8553 13/10/14 Unknown
LEWIS, PERCY, P Private 9652 17/09/14 21
LYNCH, HUGH, H Private 8292 26/09/14 Unknown
MANCEY, ALBERT GEORGE, A G Private 9353 26/09/14 25
MAYERSBETH, ROBERT, R Lance Corporal 9857 26/08/14 Unknown
MILLS, GEORGE HENRY THOMAS, G H T Private 8788 18/09/14 27
MILLS, WILLIAM, W Private 10984 20/09/14 20
MINON, DANIEL, D Private 8188 26/09/14 Unknown
MORRIS, FREDERICK, F Private 4622 26/09/14 Unknown
MORTIN, ERNEST, E Private 6833 19/09/14 Unknown
MOSS, CHARLES HENRY, C H Lance Corporal 9255 25/09/14 Unknown
NICHOLLS, FREDERICK, F Private 8718 18/09/14 Unknown
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Name Rank S/N Date Of Death Age
O'CONNOR, THOMAS, T Private 8196 26/09/14 Unknown
O'NEIL, JOHN, J Private 11331 28/09/14 Unknown
O'NEILL, JAMES, J Private 9386 26/09/14 28
PACKHAM, CHARLES ALFRED, C A Private 9124 26/09/14 Unknown
PARKER, GILBERT, G Private 8242 26/09/14 27
PERKS, WILLIAM EDWARD, W E Private 8189 26/09/14 Unknown
PITT, HILO, H Serjeant 7800 26/09/14 Unknown
POWELL, THOMAS WILLIAM, T W Private 8534 28/09/14 31
POWER, JOHN, J Private 8353 26/09/14 31
PRICE, WILLIAM ARTHUR, W A Private 7924 18/09/14 Unknown
PROBERT, PERCY, P Private 11037 14/09/14 Unknown
PROUSE, JOHN, J Lance Corporal 11093 19/09/14 Unknown
REACH, THOMAS EDWARD, T E Private 8180 26/09/14 30
RHODES, JOHN ALICK, J A Private 9371 18/09/14 25
RINGHAM, ROBERT, R Private 9368 26/09/14 28
ROBBINS, JOSEPH, J Private 6901 26/09/14 32
ROBERTS, ARTHUR, A Private 10709 26/09/14 24
ROBINSON, MATTHEW, M Private 6453 26/09/14 36
ROGERS, EDWARD, E Private 7813 14/10/14 Unknown
ROGERS, FREDERICK, F Private 8463 18/09/14 Unknown
ROLFE, GEORGE JAMES, G J Private 9242 26/09/14 27
SCOTT, WALTER WILLIAM, W W Private 9390 18/09/14 Unknown
SCURLOCK, ERNEST GEORGE, E G Private 11779 26/09/14 29
SEAR, ALBERT WALTER, A W Private 7361 26/09/14 29
SHEA, FRANK, F Private 10331 26/09/14 24
SMITH, ERNEST WILLIAM, E W Lance Corporal 6228 24/09/14 Unknown
SMITH, WILLIAM FREDERICK, W F Private 8759 26/09/14 27
SPINK, THOMAS JAMES, T J Private 8720 26/09/14 27
SYKES, ALFRED JOHN, A J Serjeant 6212 26/09/14 Unknown
TAYLOR, ROBERT, R Private 8662 18/09/14 Unknown
THOMAS, DAVID, D Private 8261 26/09/14 42
THOMAS, WILLIAM, W Private 8037 18/09/14 34
TUCKER, WILLIAM, W Private 8432 04/10/14 31
WAINSCOTT, WALTER JOSEPH, W J Private 8550 15/09/14 37
WALKER, EDWARD WILLIAM, E W Lance Corporal 7443 26/09/14 27
WARD, FREDERICK THOMAS, F T Private 8018 26/09/14 Unknown
WATERHOUSE, GEORGE FREDERICK, G F Lance Corporal 10863 26/09/14 Unknown
WELSH, WILLIAM, W Private 11726 24/09/14 32
WESTON, HERBERT, H Lance Corporal 9019 26/09/14 Unknown
WHITMEY, CHARLES BENJAMIN, C B Private 9373 26/09/14 26
WILLIAMS, GEORGE, G Private 8023 26/09/14 29
WILLIAMS, JOHN HENRY, J H Private 7861 19/09/14 31
WORKMAN, ROBERT, R Private 8708 26/09/14 30
YEND, JAMES, J Private 9485 26/09/14 Unknown
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Thanks for the list - I think though that none of these individuals is buried at La Ferte - the monument is a memorial to all the British soldiers missing presumed killed from the batlles of Mons, Le Cateau, the Marne & the Aisne
Steve
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Yes Steve, it is a memorial rather than graves and tombstones.
The following men have "age unknown", but I have been able to find what appears to be their birth year, according to the 1911 Census, when the 1st Battalion was in the district of Medway (at Chatham), and the 2nd Battalion was in the "County" of "Overseas Military" (at Pretoria)
Service No Birth Name
4622 1878 MORRIS, FREDERICK, F
6212 1882 SYKES, ALFRED JOHN, A J
6228 1878 SMITH, ERNEST WILLIAM, E W
6269 1889 HANDS, JOHN, J
6513 1881 HOOPER, EDGAR CHARLES, E C
6833 1879 MORTIN, ERNEST, E
7080 1888 GARDNER, JOHN, J
7813 1891 ROGERS, EDWARD, E
7827 1889 DYKES, THOMAS, T
7885 1878 ALLEN, THOMAS WILLIAM, T W
7924 1886 PRICE, WILLIAM ARTHUR, W A
8061 1886 INSKIP, ROBERT, R
8196 1892 O'CONNOR, THOMAS, T
8234 1884 JORDAN, GEORGE OSCAR, G O
8292 1872 LYNCH, HUGH, H
8463 1890 ROGERS, FREDERICK, F
8553 1886 LEWIS, EDWARD JOHN, E J
8669 1889 COLE, HARRY, H
8718 1888 NICHOLLS, FREDERICK, F
8740 1885 HOWCROFT, HENRY, H
9019 1884 WESTON, HERBERT, H
9124 1883 PACKHAM, CHARLES ALFRED, C A
9255 1886 MOSS, CHARLES HENRY, C H
9390 1889 SCOTT, WALTER WILLIAM, W W
9485 1889 YEND, JAMES, J
9668 1886 GOLDSMITH, GEORGE, G
9857 1889 MAYERSBETH, ROBERT, R
10046 1872 KYLE, ALEXANDER WILLIAM, A W
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Also can anyone let me know the whereabouts of the 2nd Battalion in the period 1901-14.
Would it also be possible to know the whereabouts of the 1st Battalion during the same period, please. I think I saw something about the 1st having been in Malta in 1914
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The 1st Battalion SWB embarked for India from Gibraltar on 22 November 1897. They arrived back in Chatham in December 1910. They moved to Bordon (Hamspshire) in September 1913 and were there for the start of WW1. They may have stopped off in Malta on the way back from India in 1910.
If you contact the SWB museum they may have a revised ‘Historical Records’ which should tell you chapter and verse how many men moved where, and when. Regiments were ordered to produce these at the start of Victoria’s reign and some regiments produced updates every 30-40 years up to WW1.
Ken
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Thanks Ken. Once I have exhausted my list of leads, I shall write a letter to the museum.
The battalion diary for the period 15 Sept 1914 to 02 Oct (or thereabouts) has been put online, which is an interesting read.
http://www.1914-1918.net/swb.htm
There were two other ranks, and two officers, which were buried at Vendresse, in addition to the missing men lisyed above.
COKER, JOHN CADWALLADER, J C Lieutenant 26/09/14 27
JOHNSON, MERVYN TAYLOR, M T Lieutenant 14/09/14 28
MEREDITH, GEORGE HENRY, G H Private 8558 18/09/14 27 "C " Coy. 1st Bn.
PETTIT, CHARLES GEORGE, C G Private 9449 26/09/14 27
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Hi Steve, thought you may find this interesting.
The 1st Division diaries are a compilation of all the battalion diaries. In addition to the diary for the month of September, there is an annex to the September diary; a report on the Battle of the Aisne. Below is a transcript of this. It is a very small part of the four years of diaries:
The ridge of a wooded hill, at the head of a valley (south of the village) is where 1st Battn South Wales Borderers were entrenched. The village of 02160 Vendresse-Beaulne is located south of Laon, and east of Soissons.
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Battle of the Aisne report:
On morning of 14 Sept, the 1st SWB marching from BOURG arrived at xroads 1/4 mile south of Vendresse & halted for about 1/2 hour there, before receiving orders to reinforce the left flank of Vendresse ridge. The battn had no had no sooner left xroads when it came under shell fire and eventually reached the fir wood at the S.W. corner of Vendresse ridge - from there it was ordered to attack the ridge about 3/4 mile due north of CHIVY, i.e. in a northerly direction & carry on the line of the Black Watch who were in front.
The furthest point reached at this stage was CHIVY village and the wood to the west of it, the Black Watch in the mean time moving off to our right front - The battn being unable to advance further owing to enemy fire & casualties, held the line of the BEAULNE-CHIVY road that is facing NNW. Towards evening the Battn was ordered to advance to the CHEMIN DES DAMES road directing on tee CHE of CHEMIN route, the Welsh Regt on our left moving up the valley, and the Guards Brigade on our right.
The 1st S.W.B. were therefore re-organised in and near the fir wood above mentioned and commenced the advance about 5.30p.m. & came under heavy artillery fire - the 2 leading Coys reached the ridge 140 yards from the point given without opposition & remained there for the night facing north with the Welsh quite close on their left - several of the enemy surrendered to them during the night - the other 2 Coys & HQ reached a point more to the right about 500 yards south of the CHEMIN-DES-DAMES with their right on the CHIVY-CERNY track, and were attacked very soon after arrival - As it was dark before reaching this point these Coys entrenched themselves at this point, one Coy on each side of the track, the left Coy facing north and the other north northeast. This position was held for the next six days with the other 2 Coys on their left, thrown back.
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The 1st Battalion SWB embarked for India from Gibraltar on 22 November 1897. They arrived back in Chatham in December 1910. They moved to Bordon (Hampshire) in September 1913 and were there for the start of WW1.
Below is a breakout of the service of the 1st Battalion whilst in India
http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=78081
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Thanks for all the info & excerpt from the War Diary. Frank Flexney was in fact killed on the 26th September during a surprise attack at dawn on a quarry position the Borderers had occupied, at the top of a ridge overlooking Vendresse. I've read the Official Regimental History & it gives quite a vivid picture of the engagement - the Germans were beaten off with heavy losses - the men were taken completely by surprise as the enemy attacked uphill under the cover of morning mist - several Borderers even fought with their eating utensils - they were presumably having breakfast!
I have visited the site (& the nearby military graveyard). Its difficult to recognize the action now as the valley is mostly open field & the ridge wooded - completely the opposite of the situation in 1914. I spoke to the local farmer & he said he had quite a few visitors to the site - but mostly German. I was lucky in collecting some poppies from the field where my great uncle died, which have to serve in the place of any photograph of him
Steve
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Hi Steve,
Here is a map with the dispositions of the South Wales Borderers on 17 Sept 1914.
I've also been able to find a map of the dispositions as at 22 Sept 1914, with the Borderers positioned north of Chivy and Vendresse.
Regards
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His service record does not appear to have survived WW2 bombing. All you can really do is to research when 8548 was issued, either at the SWB museum or on the Great War Forum. Once you have his enlistment date, even approximately, you should be able to work out the type of service he had enlisted under.
HI Steve,
I've been in the same situation as you, and although there have been less trials and more errors, this is what I'd recommend doing:
1. Do searches on the National Archives Medal Roll search engine. Use "South Wales Borderers" as Corps, and "854*" as a keyword. Write down in numeric order the numbers and the names.
2. Work down the list with the following:
a. Do searches on the Service Records
b. Do searches on the Pension Records
c. If nothing was found, check the medal cards to see if "SWB List" appears.
If you see the likes of "SWB List J/1876/1", jot this down
3. Keep doing this for as many groups of 10 numbers until you are satisfied with the results.
What is the significance with SWB List? The Silver War Badge list will record the enlistment date, and this will allow you to narrow the date range in which your ancestor joined up.
The SWB lists are at Kew; the corresponding reference for the entry above is WO 329/3097
I have been very lucky in finding the service record (in the pension database in Ancestry) of a man who enlisted on the same date (I believe) and in the same location as George Goldsmith. In fact, I suspect the two of them joined up together.
Medal Roll Card data:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/browse-refine.asp?CatID=10
WO 363 # British Army WWI Service Records, 1914-1920
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=1219
WO 364 # British Army WWI Pension Records 1914-1920
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=1114
Best of luck
GP
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One last comment from me:
James Toman and Thomas Green (service numbers 10572 & 10576 respectively) appear in the 1911 Census; I believe if you are searching an ancestor with a service number lower than this, they should appear in the 1911 Census.
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Thanks GrenPen for all your help & suggestions - I will follow them up. Sorry for the delay in replying but I've been away for a few weeks. I have found Frank Flexney in the 1911 Census in Pretoria, but under the name Henry Flexney!
Steve
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Family stories relate that he served in India at some time in his first tour of duty
Steve
Hi Steve,
I have been concluding my research, and have been in contact with the RRW museum at Brecon. The staff were kind enough to indulge me with some dates of drafts sent to India (along with the numbers of soldiers sent - the individual names have not survived) during 1908 and 1909.
In addition, I was advised of the following drafts from the 1st to the 2nd Battalion; the Regiment was keen that its overseas battalion was kept at full strength:
6 September 1910 - A draft of 148 NCOs and men of 1st Battalion, on transfer to 2nd Battalion, proceeded to Karachi, then Bombay - to UK - transport 'Dongola'. [9867 Ernest Mitchell appears to be one of these draftees.]
22 October 1910 - A draft of 239 NCOs and Men of 1st Battalion, on transfer to 2nd Battalion - in South Africa via RIMS 'Northbrook' to Durban.
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Thanks GP
The drafts are really interesting - it could be that Frank Flexney was one of them & did serve in India after all
Steve
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Hi Steve,
This will, I believe, be my final posting.
Private John Godwin, number 8546, would have joined at the same time as your great uncle. John was invalided out of the Army, receiving a Silver War Badge.
The medal card for the Silver War Badge states that he joined on 3 September 1904.
Thanks
GP
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I have had the pleasure of dealing with Paul Nixon recently, a true gent.
He advised me of how it is possible to do wildcard searches with WO97 records. The result was considerably more records than 12 months of working with the poorly indexed WW1 Service records (many were missing) and WW1 Pension records (more of these survived than Service records). If you are researching a pre-war regular, I would advise using the WO 97 records as your first port of call.
http://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2011/10/south-wales-borderers-1881-1914-1st-and.html
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Hi GP
Thanks for the information - I'll certainly follow that up
Steve
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Steve,
Re your reference to a"Henry Flexney" on the 1911 Census and the somewhat garbled address (R--dland, Bristol Glam).
FindMyPast has a military record for a Frank Flexney joining 4th Somerset L I, 30 May 1903, aged 17yrs 11 months and buying himself out after 76 days.
Details include next of kin, "Frank Flexney, father, 106 Cressell Rd", brother "Oliver" and mentions the Parish of "Redland".
Have found the family in 1911 - minus Frank.
regards
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Thats really interesting - its certainly the right family - Frank had a brother Oliver (finally died at Passchendael 1917) and his father was another Frank; they lived at 106 Chessel Street, Bedminster, Bristol. There was always a family story about Frank buying himself out - I assumed it was from the SWB c1912 - perhaps he did it again then. I'll follow this up, but it shows he was determined to be a soldier, possibly changing his mind when faced with the reality!
Thank you so much
Steve