RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: gbugden on Saturday 30 January 10 05:53 GMT (UK)
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Hello listers
I am trying to establish which of the convicts named Samuel Owen(s) is my ancestor.
My Owens married Sarah Williams in 1827. If my Samuel Owens was the one who came on the Mary in 1822, then he was still a convict at the time of this marriage and would have required permission from the governor. It is the confirmation I need to continue my research.
If there is someone who can access the above record, I'd be very appreciative.
Cheers
Greg
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Greg ,
Where at N.S.W, Victoria or where
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Yes indeed, your Samuel Owen did have to get permission to marry Sarah Williams.
Permission was granted on 5th May 1827 to Samuel Owen aged 25 transported on the Mary for Life and on Bond and Sarah Williams aged 20 transported on the Grenada for 7 years and on bond.
Clergyman = Rev G A ????? Newcastle.
Dee :)
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Hi there,
Permission to marry info:
Samuel Owen to Sarah Williams granted 5 May 1827. He was ex "Mary", aged 25, life sentence. She was ex Grenada (4), 7 year sentence, aged 20. Marriage at Newcastle (NSW) by Rev. Middleton.
Hope that helps. Do you want further info on either Samuel, Sarah or the ships?
Duplicating Dee's findings, but minister's surname seems to me to be MIDDLETON.... ;D
Cheers,
JM
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Married at Christ Church, Hoxham, Newcastle ;)
Annie
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An excellent result..i hadn't expected info on Sarah..a great bonus.
Do you think Hoxhem, Newcastle is the same as Hexhem, Newcastle?
Thank you all..hours of of fun now tracking them both down!
And Yes..additional information would be a terrific bonus.. a most kind offer!
Cheers Greg
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Don't hesitate to ask again if you want more help, Greg.
Enjoy the search. :)
Dee :)
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Hi there,
Samuel Owen ex the Mary, is indexed on the early NSW Col Secretary's papers (to 1825) http://colsec.records.nsw.gov.au/indexes/colsec/o/F42c_o-14.htm#P6175_209105
His Convict Pardon of 1836 is indexed http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexes/searchform.aspx?Table=Index+to+Convict+Pardons&Surname
You should get a description for him from a copy of that record ;D
What info do you already have, and what further info are you seeking? ;)
Cheers,
JM
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Yes Greg
It should read HEXHAM
Adding Christ Church is the Anglican Cathedral in Newcastle.
Annie
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Don't want to take away your searching fun but a look at QLD BDM will help ;)
Annie
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Hi there,
Samuel Owen's trial was at Warwick Assizes, 31 March 1821.
Also tried on that date and place and also sentenced to Life were: Michael Lawley, Duncan Kennedy and Thomas Watts.
Also, NO mention of the crime on the image of the Mary II's 1822 muster.
Will check for Sarah next ;)
Cheers,
JM
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Hi there,
Sarah Williams trial was at Liverpool Borough 17 July 1826. Also tried same date/place and sentence of 7 years were:
Betty Bowker, Elizabeth Drewitt, Ann Farran, Margaret the wife of Josiah Jackson, Mary Ann Johnson. Also, NO mention of the crime on the Grenada's 1827 muster.
Cheers,
JM
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This detail is terrific...I had not expected so much. It seems that i can now do some research about birth details in the old country, which is a bonus and may push my tree back another generation or more!
i really couldn't be more pleased with this help.
It seems that Samuel and wife went onto QLD at some time I think. There are a number of mentions on the digital newspaper site and the Qld BDm records his death in 1857.
I have some reading to do!
Thank you all this is great
Greg
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There are three listings on the following: Queensland Early Pioneers Index 1824-1859
Samuel Owen 21 October 1847 British (Scottish/Irish) convict
There are two other listings in Feb and March 1849
Jamjar
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I've been looking at both the NSW and Qld births and it is a tad confusing, a lot of births to Samuel and Sarah. :-\
Hard to pinpoint the date he was at that first pub in Qld.
Annie
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Yes the NSW bdm is perplexing. My ancestor is Eliza Jane Laidley Owens who was born 20 Apr 1843 at Laidley (then Laidley Plains) Queensland; her parents being Samuel Owen(s) and Sarah Williams.
However, 1843 is a long time after a marriage in 1827 and those other births in 1829 and 1831 might be more likely for a couple marreid in 1827... maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree with this samuel and Sarah?? :-[. i have a doubt.
But i found this, which connects a Samuel Owens to my Eliza Jane Laidley Owens
THE EARLY DAYS PIONEERS AND PIONEERING ON THE DARLING DOWNS BY WILLIAM JOHN BEST GRAY
http://www.emerge.net.au/~santarem/gray/stories/stories.html
...... I suppose they will not believe it when they are told that we had, in the early forties, a mail coach running from Brisbane to Gatton to the hotel kept by a Mr Walter Smith. A man by the name of Samuel Owens, an overseer of Mr Thomas Bell's of Bellmount, near Richmond, N.S.W. brought stock of Mr Bell's from the Big River and formed a Station on Laidley Creek and then he started the coach........A man by the name of Richard Lovell came over with Owens as a Bullock -Driver, and he was the man chosen by Owens to drive the coach. The coach after a short time out a failure, through bad roads or some other cause of which I know nothing about, and Owens left Laidley, where he had resided as overseer for Mr Bell, and he went over the little Liverpool Range and built a public house sixteen miles from Ipswich, at a place then known as the Old Man's Waterhole on the Ipswich Road.
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Did you find Eliza Jane Laidley's marriage record?
It is under surname LAIDLEY :D on QLD BDM
Yes I agree, I'm sure some of those NSW births are theirs too. There is definitely an Edmund mentioned in the papers at Ipswich but there is one born NSW 1831 and one born QLD :-\
There is a tree on An**stry but I'm not sure the children are ALL correct.
Annie
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Someone with access to school records might help with who was at school in NSW ;)
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When i look at the dates though there is a correspondence that suggests we are pursuing the right connection:
Samuel Owens Death in QLD 1857 aged 56 therefore born c1801. Married in Newcastle 1827 aged 25 = born c1802.
I can't find his TOL in the SAG index
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On An**try .com.au all convict records are free to search until 31 January ;)
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Eliza was married 10 Jan 1861 at Warwick (in the church Manse) to Mark Pitt. She was aged 17 years 8 months 21 days. On this certificate, no father was listed and her mother was given as "Alice". Eliza's usual place of residence was listed as Ipswich. i suspect a rushed, even secret marriage here.
20 months after the marriage, she was living in Brisbane when she gave birth to her daughter ALICE PITT 10 September 1862. Alice PITT's birth entry states that Eliza Jane was born in Laidley and was 19 years of age.
Eliza Jane appears next in Brisbane when she marries John McKinlay on 21st January 1867, aged 23 and 9 months, according to the rights of the Presbyterian church; this marriage certificate states that her parents were Samuel Owens and Sarah Williams.
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His TOL is on SAG, under Owen.
All the convict records seem to be OWEN then it becomes OWENS :-\
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Sarah Williams Cert of Freedom is at NSW state archives
date 29 Jul 1833
Item 4/4317
Reel 991
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There are two records on SAG:
TOL
First Name Samuel
Ship Mary
District Patricks plains
TOL No 29/246
Year 1822
Shelf Ref 4/4070
Reel No 912
First Name Samuel
Ship Mary
Native Place Shropshire
Trade or Calling lab
Trial Place Warwick Ass
District Patricks Plains
TOL No 31/471
Year 1822
Shelf Ref 4/4079
Reel No 915
Does this mean two TOLs or two people?
Thanks for the pardon for Sarah!
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There is only 1 Samuel Owen on the Mary that I can see
Indexed twice?
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Just popped in to say that the second TOL may be a replacement for the first one - my convict 4xg-grandfather managed to damage his first one, so it was replaced with another several years after the issue of the first. If you were to obtain both, the earlier of them will probably have been crossed out or cancelled, and the other will have a note saying it's a replacement for the first one.
Cheers
Prue
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Hi there,
Prue's explanation re TWO ToL makes sense.
Have you checked out the online newspapers? Here's a sample for Samuel
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/2185026
Cheers, JM
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From the criminal registers, Samuel was tried for larceny in a dwelling house at the Warwickshire Lent assizes in 1821. The original sentence was death, but must have been commuted to transportation for life. Sarah Williams was tried at the Lancashire July sessions 1826 for larceny from a person and sentenced to 7 years in the sun. 8) ;D
Debra
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The digital newspapers give an insight and plenty of good detail, and the information from the criminal registers is also excellent for building the picture. The TOL explanation is plausible and i'll get copies of the Butts to check.
Grateful to all! This is a dynamic message board
Cheers
Greg
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This is my first time using this facility.
Alice Pitt was my great grandmother. She married Frank Weinheimer at Maryborough.Her mother was eliza jane owens.
regards wayne
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Welcome to Rootschat, Wayne.
Hopefully Greg will have an email notification of your post and check this thread and reply to you.
If you post on here a couple more times, you'll be able to use the personal message system, and send him a personal message.
Good luck,
Dee :)
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Hi Wayne
I sent you a personal message. If you did not get it, I repeat my offer made in that email to send you all my resources on this branch of the family, including shipping and newspaper records, certificates of death and marriage and even some photos.
Perhaps you have info you would like to swap. If you are interested, and I really would like to hear from you, please send a personal email and I'll give you my email address and then I can attach some extensive files for you to enjoy!
To send a personal email, just click on my name, then scroll to the bottom of the page and click on the link.
Cheers
Greg
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Hi Greg,
As Dee has mentioned in her reply, Wayne will not have access to the Personal Message system until he has posted 3 times on the open board.
I believe he will not receive any messages until that point also ;D
so perhaps he will check in here soon, say Hi a couple of times and then you will be in business!
Sue
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Thanks sparratt!
Hopefully he will get an alert and respond soon.
Thanks for your heads up on this.
Cheers
Greg
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;)
Greg,
Could not send personal message as yet.
Happy to exchange info. Have been researching this family group for a few years now.
Which part of the line of owens or pitt do you connect with.
Samuel owens(owen) was my ggg grandfather
regards wayne :)
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One more reply Wayne and you can PM ;D
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Hello Wayne
My connection to this family branch is that Alice PITT is my 2nd great-grandmother on my mother's side. Clara Weinheimer was Alice Pitt's daughter and my mother's grandmother.
Additionally, I have been in contact with a Weinheimer researcher who has kindly shared with me her research into this family well back into Germany, all the way back to Nicolas Weinheimer who was born in the early 1600s. I believe your name is on her tree showing descent from Alice Weinheimer (1888-1983)
Perhaps if you reply again you will be able to Pm me and I can give you email address.
Cheers
Greg
PS Hi aniph!
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greg
I replied a couple of days ago. Maybe I stuffed up !!
I have a letter written in the 1930's by a man who said he was William Henry Pitt. He addressed the letter to "my dear sister" ????
He said he had been raised in an orphanage and had gone by that name since he had left the orphanage. Have spent years trying to find out who he is. Any ideas.
Hopefully I can now send you a personal message.
Regards Wayne
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Hi I am tracing my family history which has led me here. I am hoping this site can help me....my ancestry is the following Ronald Herbert Ross is my grandfather, his father being Raymond Charles Ross born Bear Hill - Tingha in 1892, his parents were John Joseph Ross and Annie Tolley. I believe that Annie Tolley (many variations of the first and second name) is the daughter of Joseph Tolly and Margaret Maria Owens. This is where I need help as ancestry.com is a bit confusing...I believe that Margaret is the daughter of Samuel Owen/s and Sarah Wilson. John Joseph Ross and Annie Tolley had another son Herbert who was born1889 in Herberton QLD. Would like any help or confirmation that I have the right connection to Samuel Owen/s and his wife sarah (sally). Did Sarah (Sally) marry becoming a Stubbs? ??? Thanks in advance
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Hi
I have heaps of information on Sam and Sally Owens. There is more than one Sam Owens though and this can cause confusion. My Sally did remarry a Stubbs, so you might be in the right track. I have a Maria Owens, daughter of Sam and Sally, born in 1847 and marrying at age 14! To a George Wilson in 1861. However, this daughters branch is a bit thin in my research, and I have not yet made sure it is correct. Does this basic information re-inforce your research? If so I am happy to share my research.
Cheers
Greg.
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Thanks Greg, will need all the help I can get on this one, there are so many discrpenancie and name changes it is throwing me for a loop. What I do know is my ggrandfather was Raymond Charles Ross his parents were John Joseph Ross who married Annie Tolley - thats where it starts to become a foggy. I have a marriage extract for a Joseph Tolley who married a Margaret Maria Wilson in Armidale 1873. Her status was widow (George Wilson is stated) her age 32 in 1873. Residence Cope Creek. Parents Samuel Owens and Sarah Ann Edwards - Squatter. I think we may have a connection. Is Sally the same Sally Owens that plains were named after and if so I thought her name was Sarah/ Sally Williams???