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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: Yorky on Saturday 30 January 10 01:03 GMT (UK)
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Hello
I understand that institutions were enumerated seperately from households.
I am seeking details of a lady who was a nun in the Convent of the Good Shepherd, Tollcross,Glasgow. Her surname I believe was Cairns. First name ?. She was the sister of my husband's paternal grandfather. We are having real trouble pinpointing his birth. Even though he declares the place to be Greenock ( shown on 1911 English census) his birth details are not in those registers which have been checked for me by a GWSFHS member.
I would like to be able to see the full entry for the convent. Does anyone know please what the charge would be for Glasgow Archives to get this for me.
Any advice would be very much appreciated.
Many thanks
Yorky(Kath)
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Hi Kath
There are 417 entries showing for the Convent of the Good Shepherd at Dalbeth, Tollcross in 1901. The lion share of the entries are for inmates/school children. Can't see any entries for Cairns and variants :-\
Might be worth you posting again details of your husband's grandfather?
Monica :)
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Kath
Is hubby's grandfather a Peter Cairns showing as born Greenock and living in Sunderland in 1911? His birth year there is showing as c. 1866. As you know, census ages can be unreliable.
Have you been able to find Peter's marriage (was it to Annie Fordy in 1903 in Sunderland?) as at least this would let you confirm his father's name.
There is only one Peter Cairns showing on IGI as born in Greenock anywhere near his birth year:
PETER CAIRNS Birth: 29 AUG 1862 Middle Or New Parish, Greenock
Parents: JOHN CAIRNS and MARY RILEY
One other child shows as born to this couple, Joseph in 1859 Greenock. I am wondering whether this is the family in 1861 before Peter was born. This is messy transcript as you can see:
John Cairus 42, Musician b. Ireland
Mary Cairus 40 b. Ireland
Bridget Cairus 18, Cotton Mill Worker b. Ireland
Elizabeth Cairus 12 b. Greenock, Renfrewshire
Joseph Cairus 2 b. Greenock, Renfrewshire
Address: Split Close, Greenock Middle
Monica :)
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I wondered if his name was Robert Donald Cairns, born 1877/1878 Greenock and in England 1911 census.
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Thank Monica and Capricorn for your replies.
Capricorn - He is definitely known as Peter to his family and appears as such on birth registratiions of all his children. With the difficulty pinpointing his birth we have wondered if he was registered with different first names.
Monica - I never expected a respondent to have looked at the 1901 entry for the convent. Thank you.
Peter did marry Annie Fordy in Sunderland in Feb 1903. He was 37 she 22. His father shown as Thomas Cairns, deceased, shoemaker. We have no idea what Peter's mother was called.
On 1901 Sunderland census Peter is a lodger with an aunt and uncle of Annie Fordy. His age given as 36. If he was precise in giving both these ages as age last birthday I calculated that he was born in the first quarter of 1865. He died in Jan 1953. His daughter gave 88 as his age. 1 year out on my calculations but near enough not to cause a big rethink.
Peter had 3 brothers and 2 sisters. Supposedly all Scottish born. Not sure what the order is or any names. There is however a story that Peter was carrying a younger brother on his back while rushing home in a storm when lightning struck and the child on his back was killed. This incident affected Peter greatly as he felt that it was his fault. What period this was in we do not know.
Another story is that the children were orphaned because of a death from influenza. We have wondered if Peter's mother had two marriages, the second being to Thomas Cairns. If Peter was of the first marriage he could have been raised by a Thomas Cairns and always known by that name.
The children were taken in to the church. Surviving brothers became priests and the 2 sisters became nuns. One of these was definitely in Dalbeth convent in early 1940s because my mother in law went to visit her on Peter's behalf.
This nun was very elderly then. But as my ma in law was only about 30 herself anyone over 60 would seem so maybe.
Peter was having any of the going to train for the priesthood and supposedly went to sea. Another story is that he was in the army, possibly Black Watch, and went to the Boer War. These stories are coming from different sections of the present descendants of Peter and it would be a miracle if any of them prove to be true.
It was a long shot on my part that the nun would be at Dalbeth in 1901. However it would be interesting to know if any of the nuns listed in 1901 were born say between 1855 and 1875 in Scotland. I could do a search on those surnames on the basis that maybe there was an earlier marriage.
What do you think I should do with this .
Cheersand many thanks
Kath
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Hi Kath
Just a couple of bits and pieces for now.
The only Thomas Cairns that I can find to date who was a shoemaker by trade, shows up in Perth Prison in 1871 (can't tell from the transcript his marital status). From NAS, these are numerous references to him. You can search here www.nas.gov.uk/onlineCatalogue/, just insert Thomas Cairns as an exact phrase. He looks to have been Glasgow born c. 1841 and also had an alias of James Wilson....
Regarding a possible time for Peter at sea. There is one entry in the 1891 census for a Peter Cairns b. Glasgow c. 1864 who shows up as crew on the 'State of Georgia', probably in Glasgow at the time picking up passengers for sailings to the US (from what I can see of the history of this ship).
Can't see anything regarding possible military career as yet. Interestingly, there was an entry for a Peter Cairns born in Greenock showing but likely someone born much earlier given the date showing as reference, see http://tiny123.com/1lds (I've shrunk the link!).
I'll keep looking :)
Monica
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Hello again Monica
I have just had a phone chat with another descendant of Peter. She found the Perth prison census and has investiagted the details of Thomas Cairns but feels there is no connection. Perhaps I should do it myself to make sure.
I have seen a Royal Naval record for a Peter who was born later than mine and the birthplace did not seem likely anyway.
Speak again later and thanks for all your help with this. It is amazing.
Kath
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Just trying to find clues on potential names for Peter's mother. If Peter followed Scottish naming pattern, likely he called one of his daughters in memory of her. From my general searches on the 1911 entry, I could see a Nellie and Mary, also a Thomas.
Have you got Annie's parents' names and also the names of the early born children?
Monica
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Monica
I have also thought about the naming tradition. Peter and Annies children were in birth order.
Ellen( Nellie) born 1902 - before they married. An aunt of Annies was Ellen. The name is also in that line in 2 previous generations before the aunt.
Mary - born 1903. Annie's mother and her mother were Mary.
Thomas - eldest son - after Peter's dad itwould seem.
Felix - second son - after Annie's dad -Felix Fordy
John 1910 - My Father in law - Felix was the son of John Fordy.
Peter 1912 - I have assumed he was named after his father.
Leo - 1914 - this name has not appeared in the Fordy line. It does not appear on Scotlands People as far as I can see. I looked at the Catholic registers with no result nor are there any results in post 1854 BMDs. No idea where this name is from. IGI returns nothing.
Ann - 1916 - Named after her mother it seems.
Thank you for your thoughts on this. From your experience do you think it is solvable.
Kath
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Kath
To be honest, sounds like you have plugged away at this for a while, also like you have been down many roads on this one.
You are doing the right thing of coming back to this every so often and getting new people to look at it as everyone does searches differently. It's is down to luck now. I've often seen puzzles like this unravel with just one critial piece of info.
Always hopeful me ;D
Monica
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Hi Monica
I started looking for Peters birth record about 3 years ago,maybe more. As we knew for sure that he was in Sunderland from early 1900s it was quite easy finding him on1901.
No luck on the Scottish birth searches no matter how much I tried using varients on Cairns etc. I was chuffed to bits when English 1911 was released early. You have seen that it is clear enough that he thought Greenock was his birthplace.
Over the last 3 or so years I have not been really too diligant with stuff I have looked for because of the birthplace being vague in the family.
I could have cried when I could not see a Greenock birth.
I am now retired with more time to devote to this and I can see that a trip to Glasgow is required.
Although Peter produced 5 sons to carry his name forward there are now only 2 child producing Cairns men. One is my son David who has a 3 year old John. I want to find stuff for John really.
Thank you for your help here. I knew Rootschatters were brilliant. I have used the site a little before.
Byeeeeeee
Kath
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Just adding another variant to look for (not easy sometimes is it with some names!). Peter and Patrick are interchangeable in Scotland for that period. I have been looking under both names and nothing still.
Monica
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hi
going through the catholic births and baptisms on sp theres a patrick cairns born/baptised to a thomas on 25 may 1868 at st josephs glasgow, just a hunch as the other siblings went into the priesthood and the convent.
jac2
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Hi Kath
There are 417 entries showing for the Convent of the Good Shepherd at Dalbeth, Tollcross in 1901. The lion share of the entries are for inmates/school children. Can't see any entries for Cairns and variants :-\
Might be worth you posting again details of your husband's grandfather?
Monica :)
Sorry to jump on this post I don't know if this will work and I don't know any other way but could you tell me how to look at the census records for dalbeth convent I to would like to find my husbands grandmother on the 1911 census.
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Hi tracytats
The only place to search/look up the 1911 Scottish Census is on www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk which is pay to view (but costs are reasonable).
You can't search by address though. The earlier censuses, you have the option to search the transcripts by address on the subscription services such as Ancestry or Find my Past.
Dalbeth Convent shows on the 1901 census with the following references:
Registration district: Shettleston
Civil parish: Shettleston
County: Lanarkshire
Address: Dalbeth, Tollcross
ED: Convent of the Good Shepherd
You can search on SP therefore as Glasgow City and then Shettleston and then use name and ages to try to find her.
Monica
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Hi tracytats
The only place to search/look up the 1911 Scottish Census is on www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk which is pay to view (but costs are reasonable).
You can't search by address though. The earlier censuses, you have the option to search the transcripts by address on the subscription services such as Ancestry or Find my Past.
Dalbeth Convent shows on the 1901 census with the following references:
Registration district: Shettleston
Civil parish: Shettleston
County: Lanarkshire
Address: Dalbeth, Tollcross
ED: Convent of the Good Shepherd
You can search on SP therefore as Glasgow City and then Shettleston and then use name and ages to try to find her.
Monica
Thank you Monica.
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Hello Tracytats
I have looked at Dalbeth Convent censuses up to 1911 and have prints. What is the name of the lady you are searching for. I will look for you.
It is 12 years since I first posted on Rootschat for Dalbeth. I still have not traced my man Peter Cairns (hubby's grandad) but I live in hopes. It would be great if I could help you.
Bye for now
Kath (Yorky)
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Hello Tracytats
I have looked at Dalbeth Convent censuses up to 1911 and have prints. What is the name of the lady you are searching for. I will look for you.
It is 12 years since I first posted on Rootschat for Dalbeth. I still have not traced my man Peter Cairns (hubby's grandad) but I live in hopes. It would be great if I could help you.
Bye for now
Kath (Yorky)
Hello Kath thank you so much
I'm looking for Helen Harris born 6/3/1896 in Dundee parents Thomas Harris and Helen Welsh but there is a twist as she may have the name Helen Allan/en or Helen White or Helen Marie Antoinette Harris Allan/en she had all these names due to her mum having different men. It would be wonderful to find her on the 1911 census in dalbeth convent.
Best wishes Tracy.
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Hi Tracy
I will start a new post for your query.
Kath