RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Fife => Topic started by: JoeM on Friday 29 January 10 15:30 GMT (UK)
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Hi Folks,
I am looking for a key piece of information, that would help out tremendously.
William Smart (b. Monkston) and Ann Grant (b. Cullen) were married in November on November 24/1851.
Children were: Elizabith, Barbara, Ann, Helen, Donald, May Ann and Margaret.
I am trying to find out where they lived in 1890 and1891.
In addition who was living with or near them during the 1881 census and more importantly the 1891 census.
Through hours, days and months of research and with a great deal of help from others (many of you here) our journey through history has taken a dramatic turn.
I have built a Family binder and would like to present it to my mother on her birthday (July 9), this would help greatly in finishing it off.
Thanks
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What part of the world are we talking?
Years and places of birth would help.
Also what censuses have you got them on, - give refs.
1881 is free to search - have you looked for them? Assuming Britain
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I guess I was to excited and truely may not have given enough information.
William b. December 9/1823 Monkston, Fife, Scotland
Ann b. 1834 Cullen, Banfshire, Scotland
Elizabeth b. 1852 Kettle Fife Scotland
Barbara b. Oct 25/18?? Kettle Fife Scotland
Ann b. September 11/1885 Little Orkie kettle Fife Scotland
Helen b. December 30/1859 Orkie Kettle Fife Scotland
Donald b. March 3 /1862 Orkie kettle Fife Scotland
Mary Ann Smart b. November 29/1864 Orkie Kettle Fife Scotland
Margaret b. December 31/1866
In September of 2009 we took a trip to Scotland and being new to family research we did not capture a lot of the detailed information (as to source material). Most of our initial research was done in the local library and documents.
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Hi
Ann b. September 11/1885 Little Orkie kettle Fife Scotland
Is this a typing error - should birthplace be 1855 or 1865
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Not sure on one of the documents I found it showed 1885, but you could be absoluting right!!
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1881 census for Falkland- address is just Lands End
William Smart 57 b Collessie Fifeshire road labourer
Ann G 47 b Cullen Banffshire
Mary A 16 b Kettle
Georgina 12 b Freuchie
Ann 10 Months granddaughter b Freuchie
Falkland ED 7 Page 18 Line 9
Ann was b 1834 so too old to have had a child in 1885
In addition who was living with or near them during the 1881 census and more importantly the 1891 census.
You would have to buy credits on Scotlands People and turn up the original image to find that info
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How do I go about buying credits and what is Scotlands People.
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1891 census - same address. Grandchildren all b Falkland
William Smart 68 b Collessie
Ann 58 b Banff
Margaret 28 b Kettle
Ann 10 g/dtr
William 3 g/son
Donald 9 Months g/son
Falkland ED 7 Page 23 Line 19
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www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk holds all the actual census images. Nobody else has them online. Only transcriptions are available on other subscription sites
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Hi Joe
Someone else researching this family, from an old post www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,216317.0.html
Monica :)
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I notice Joe replied to that post on 6.11.09
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:P Must read through to the end of posts!
Monica :)
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Monica,
I have previously spoken to old bear and sent her all my work, which includes the furtherest I have been able to trace back (i.e. William Smart (b. 1772) and his wife Margaret Dingwall), his sons and daughters and their sons and daughters inclusive to those relatives now living in Canada. This is somewhere around 100 people.
Sharing is Caring.
This was done as indirect payback for all the heip I have been given from people on this site.
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Sharing is caring Joe :) I was just apologising for giving you a link that you were already aware of, hence my note about 'must read through to the end of posts'!
Monica
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Monica,
No worries, no apologies needed nor required. ;D
But you do have my complete and undivided attention when it comes to scotlands people.
How do I go about joining scotlands people.
I need to find out the name of an Irish man that was staying with or near William Smart and Ann (nee Grant) in 1991. The only avenue I believe I have is the 1891 census.
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I just reread my post.
1991 should have been 1891. Must be to early for me lol. Typo, Typo, Typo .... :o
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Scotland's People link here www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk. There is also a help guide here on RC about getting the best use of SP www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,43916.0.html
If I can give you some advice though ::) I am a huge fan of SP and can't think of doing Scottish research without it! However, given it is a pay to view site, it can burn through credits if you are doing a general fishing expedition as the search fields for the censuses are not many nor very flexible.
Why don't you post details of who you are trying to find, as much as you have, and then people with access to Ancestry's Scottish census transcriptions can have a look for you. Once he has been found, then you know exactly where to look on SP for the original image of his entry.
Monica :)
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Alas here in lies the problem.
An irish man came to Fife to work.
During his stay he got "friendly" with William and Ann's daughter Margaret (b. Dec 31 1866).
We don't know if he left after this or not, but we do know that he did not marry Margaret.
David Smart (b. August 17 1870) stepped up to the plate and married Maragret and their first son was Donald Grant Smart.
David and Margaret were married on Nov. 25 1892 and Donald was born shortly there after in the same year (1892).
I was truely hoping that we would be able to find the "needle in the hay stack" and there would be very few men of irish decent in the area at the time. Pipe dreams and all.
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We do know that David did work on the Riggs farm, but not sure if this was before or after the marriage.
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Joe, that is a hard search ;D
Searching the entire Falkland parish in 1891 for a man born in Ireland, doesn't bring up many. A couple of married men and then one John Murphy, born c. 1839, labouring at Feus Freuchie. Not much else for that census point :-\
Monica
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Monica,
I realize it will be a difficult search and will take years not days to find the answer.
Probably the best is to identify where she was living in 1891 and look in the immediate area, not Fife in general.
That would be far to labor intensive.
Assuming she didnt like older or younger men, he would have to be between 18 and 35 as she would be approximately 25 years old.
Depending on the "Lust Factor" he may or may not have been married at the time.
I am currently going through personal papers of my grandmother's who was married to Donald Grant Smart.
If I get lucky there may be a gem to be found.
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When you say look for Margaret in 1891, is she not in the household with parents William and Ann that Carole posted earlier. I assumed that her age may have mistranscribed given she is down as 28 rather than 24 on the transcript. Showing as their daughter and right birth place.
Monica
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Now that is interesting.
Does it show where she is living or if there are a set of Irish eyes a smiling near? ::)
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Have a look at Post #7 from Carole with the family's 1891 entry at Landsend, Falkland. You may need to look at the original to make sure there are no mistranscriptions.
Monica
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Can I ask why this Irish man is important, did they have a child together? If so,, perhaps his name would apprear on his birth certificate?
H
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Cheekywan,
You got it right.
It seems before David and Margaret got married, the "Irishman" and Margaret were quite close as she got pregnant by him.
I think it may have been the case of Irish eyes a smiling. ;D
Donald Grant Smart is actually the son of the "Irishman" and Margaret, the rest of the children are from David and Margaret.
It was no secret to the family, it had been discussed on a couple of occasions but as with all things what does appears not to be important at the time is not remembered and the sad thing is that those who were in the "know" have all since passed away.
In tracing our linage, it would only be proper to do a complete job of it.
What I find unique about Donald's first name is that there were no Donalds in the Smart's line nor any in the Grant's line (that I have found so far).
This kind shoots the paternal or materanal nameing sequence in the foot.
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Monica,
I must not have paid attention to something that may have been so obvious.
David and Margaret did not get married untill November 5/1892.
It looks like she already had two children Ann 10 and William 3, as well as Donald age 9 months.
There is a good possibility that David's and Margaret's marriage was Margaret's second.
Being 28 at the time of the 1991 census and Ann being 10, Margaret would have been 17 or 18 when she had Ann.
I was not aware that Margaret had two other children. Now I have to search for a marriage for Margaret and the "Unknow Man" who may be our missing "Irish Man".
Does this make sense or am I barking up the wrong tree?
William Smart 68 b Collessie
Ann 58 b Banff
Margaret 28 b Kettle
Ann 10 g/dtr
William 3 g/son
Donald 9 Months g/son
Falkland ED 7 Page 23 Line 19
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Joe, don't assume that the grandchildren showing on that 1891 census entry are all Margaret's children - they are simply noted as grandchildren so unclear as to which of the Smart children is the parent. You would have to check the birth registrations for the children to confirm who the Smart parent was.
You also have Margaret's birth as late 1866, so her age on the 1891 census should have been showing as 24 not 28 which is why it may be worthwhile you checking the original image on SP to see whether it has mistranscribed on the Ancestry transcript. For example, at 14 years old, unlikely she would be the mother of the Ann aged 10 who shows as a grandchild. Is the Donald showing as 9 months at the time of the 1891 census Margaret's illegitmate child (with Irish Daddy)?
Margaret's marriage entry to Donald Smart in 1892 should also show marital status (widow/spinster).
Monica
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From reply #5, Carole has also posted the family entry for 1881 at Landsend, Falkland:
William Smart 57 b Collessie Fifeshire road labourer
Ann G 47 b Cullen Banffshire
Mary A 16 b Kettle
Georgina 12 b Freuchie
Ann 10 Months granddaughter b Freuchie
So, Ann grandaughter likely born in 1880 from her age.
Margaret is not showing in this entry.Two possible entries for her in 1881:
Agnes Smith 62, head b. Clackmannan, Clackmannanshire
Ann Smart 17, boarder, factory Worker b. Glassie, Fifeshire
Margaret Smart 14, boarder, factory Worker b. Falkland
Address: Mill Street, Dunfermline
John Cuthbert 55, Farmer & Miller 160 Acres Arable Unemploying 5 Men 1 Boy & 2 Women
Grace A Cuthbert 46
Isabella Arthur 19, dairy maid b. Carnbee, Fifeshire
Margaret Smart 14, outdoor worker b. Kettle
No address showing, just Falkland
Monica
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Hi JoeM,
Have been looking at your post and was wondering if you have a tree on Ancestry. As I have come across a person who seems to be researching the same family as you.
Joan
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Hi Joe
I checked SP for Williams birth and he is definately the child of Mary Ann Smart he is described as illegitmate (a horrible word) but there is no father listed.
So this one isn't Margaret's, chances are the older one Ann isn't either?
Birth 18 Jan 1888 Lands End, Freuchie
H
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Monica,
Seems the closer I get the further the way I get.
I think I will have to change my name from JoeM to just DazedandConfused :-X
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weemanswife,
I didn't know you could post your family tree on Ancestry.
How do I go about doing that.
I would love to share with others, if only to possibly make their search easier.
If you would like to offer the other person, on my behalf, the opportunity to look at what I have found so far I would be more than happy to share.
JoeM
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DazedandConfused and hopelessly hooked like the rest of us on this hobby ;D
Cheeckywan, thanks for confirming the parent for William :) That really just leaves potentially Donald as Margaret's son prior to her marriage in 1892 you would think.
Monica
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Hi
I have emailed the owner of the tree on Ancestry to have alook at your posts on rootschat. Ancestry is a pay site and is quite expensive.
He has: William Smart b1823 Collessie, Fife & Agnes Ann Grant b1829 Banff
Their children are:- Barbara Smart no birth date
Ann Smart 11- Sept 1855 Kettle, Fife
John Smart 22 Jun 1857 Kettle died 24 Jan 1944 Lands End Fife
Helen Smart 30 Dev 1859 Orkie, Fife
Donald Smart 3 Mar 1862 Orkie, Fife
Mary Ann Smart 29 Nov 1864 Orkie, Fife
Margaret SMart 31 Dec 1866 Orkie, Fife
Georgina Smart 15 Mar 1869 Lands End, Fife
There is no more on Margaret but lists John and his family. You may have all this but thought you would be interested.
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Hi all, I'm not a very regular visitor to this site but have just caught up with this Smart thread. Barbara Smart was my gg grandmother, born 25 October 1853. Her siblings were;
Ann b. 11.9.1855 at Little Orkie, Parish of Kettle. (Orkie is a farm near Freuchie, they would have been in a farm cottage)
John b. 22.6.1857 @ Orkie
Helen b. 30.12.1859 @ Orkie
Donald b. 3.3.1862 @ Orkie
Mary Ann b. 29.11.1864 @ Orkie
Margaret b.31.12.1866 @ Orkie
Georgina b. 15.3.1869 @ Falkland (will need to check this)
I also have a possible sibling called Eliza born in 1862 but again, will need to check this.
I live near Edinburgh and will be visiting the Scotland's People Centre towards the end of October so I will focus on this branch of my tree and see what I can unearth. I have information on John's marriage and of course my line through Barbara, plus some other bits and pieces that may be of interest. I haven't had much luck finding Landsend, I think it was a farm but no longer exists (I was in Falkland and Freuchie today having a look around the cemeteries)
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Hi Oldbear
The possible daughter Eliza shows on IGI (submitted entry) as born in 1852 in Kettle, marrying a John Farmer on 16 NOV 1880 in Falkland, Fife.
The 1861 census transcript, with Eliza's age badly transcribed:
William Smart 37
Ann Smart 29
Eliza Smart 17
Barbara Smart 7
John Smart 3
Hellen Smart 1
Address: Artoy Lodge,, Kettle
Monica :)
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Hi Again,
For those who are interested in the Smart family I have been relatively successful.
If you have an account for Ancestry.com, look under JoeMel99 for the family tree that I have started.
There is over 2000 people so far.
I am now trying to identify a "Mr. Boodie" (from Ireland), who may have been either Margaret's first husband or a lover. I have not been able to look at the census yet, for the area, to determine if I even have the right spelling for the gentleman's name.
Margaret had a child by the name of Donald Grant Smart (b. 1890) from this relationship.
She later married David Smart. Both David (b. 1870) and Margaret (b. 1866) moved to Western Canada to live with their son Donald and Lillian (nee Andews).
David and Margaret lived out their lives in Canada.
Enjoy your search.
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Thanks Monica and Joe, I will have a look at the Ancestry tree (I'm not a subscriber so I hope I can still see it?).
Ruth
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Hi Ruth
You need a subscription unfortunately to see member trees on Ancestry :-\ Maybe Joe can send you some of the info via personal email?
Monica
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I've just discovered that Monica! I'll message Joe and see what he can do. Thanks again
Ruth