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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: Nel86 on Wednesday 27 January 10 13:18 GMT (UK)

Title: In the presence of...
Post by: Nel86 on Wednesday 27 January 10 13:18 GMT (UK)
Hi folks,

Can anyone offer a different opinion on the name of the first witness on the Bishop Transcript to this  marriage?

To me it looks like Thomas J DUACHINS but I haven't been able to find a single individual to ever have that surname. The second looks like Richard White to me.
Title: Re: In the presence of...
Post by: Redroger on Wednesday 27 January 10 13:22 GMT (UK)
Definitely Thos. Surname, try Dawkins.
Title: Re: In the presence of...
Post by: Gadget on Wednesday 27 January 10 13:31 GMT (UK)
I think it's Thos Isaac <something>


There's definitely a gap between the c of the second word and the last bit

Still working on  it- not sure at all  :-\


Gadget
Title: Re: In the presence of...
Post by: Nel86 on Wednesday 27 January 10 13:33 GMT (UK)
Definitely Thos. Surname, try Dawkins.

I had that thought but I came to the conclusion it was unlikely to be DAWKINS.

This marriage is in South Shields, Durham and there are only a couple of hits for Dawkins' tied to South Shields on the census's searchable at Ancestry, and only a handful all told in Durham and Northumberland in the I.G.I
Title: Re: In the presence of...
Post by: Gadget on Wednesday 27 January 10 13:44 GMT (UK)
I think it's   ..chins  at the end
Title: Re: In the presence of...
Post by: Nel86 on Wednesday 27 January 10 13:47 GMT (UK)
Could the letter at the beginning of "Isaac", what I thought was a D, be a Q?
Quiggins is all I can come up with with that, and that doesn't look possible either.

[Edit] I suppose this being a transcript the transcription could be wrong.
Title: Re: In the presence of...
Post by: JenB on Wednesday 27 January 10 13:52 GMT (UK)
If anyone wants to compare handwriting elsewhere on the page, this can be found at http://www.rootschat.com/links/073w/ Durham/ South Shields/ 1816 - 1825/ image 240.

Jennifer
Title: Re: In the presence of...
Post by: Nel86 on Wednesday 27 January 10 14:00 GMT (UK)
If anyone wants to compare handwriting elsewhere on the page, this can be found at http://www.rootschat.com/links/073w/ Durham/ South Shields/ 1816 - 1825/ image 240.

Jennifer

Thanks for that! I should have done that  :-[
Title: Re: In the presence of...
Post by: Nel86 on Wednesday 27 January 10 14:08 GMT (UK)
Thomas Isaac INNS?  ???
Title: Re: In the presence of...
Post by: Redroger on Wednesday 27 January 10 14:14 GMT (UK)
If it is Isaac Inns then why is the I different in each word?A further thought check other marriages to see whether he was a "professional" witness, e g a churchwarden etc.
Title: Re: In the presence of...
Post by: JenB on Wednesday 27 January 10 14:18 GMT (UK)
If it is Isaac Inns then why is the I different in each word?A further thought check other marriages to see whether he was a "professional" witness, e g a churchwarden etc.

I am doing that at this very moment  ;)
Title: Re: In the presence of...
Post by: Gadget on Wednesday 27 January 10 14:21 GMT (UK)
I've just been going through a fair number of pages and nothing seems to match . It's not Thos J as the Js go below the line.

If it is an initial it's most likely an L or an S but then you have the problem with that strange letter which isn't like any of the other Ds  ???
Title: Re: In the presence of...
Post by: JenB on Wednesday 27 January 10 14:23 GMT (UK)
A further thought check other marriages to see whether he was a "professional" witness, e g a churchwarden etc.

I can't see the name repeated - William Wouldhave and William Preston seem to be the resident 'professional witnesses'.
Title: Re: In the presence of...
Post by: Redroger on Wednesday 27 January 10 14:24 GMT (UK)
Another good idea gone wrong!! :)
Title: Re: In the presence of...
Post by: Nel86 on Wednesday 27 January 10 14:31 GMT (UK)
Richard WHITE is turning out to be equally as useless.

I suspect that this Catherine NELLES is either a possible daughter of James NELLES and Catherine STRATFORD (m. 18 Sep 1805 at St. Hilda's, South Shields according to the I.G.I. but the bishop transcript is missing) or Catherine got remarried. If she got remarried, I don't see why she would need her parents consent though so a daughter seems more likely.

James NELLES had 2 daughters which were born in Seaton Sluice, Northumberland , which comes under Earsdon parish, and Catherine STRATFORD had a younger sister Ann.

... there is an Ann STRATFORD and a James WHITE married in Earsdon By North Shields, Dec 1807 (Bishop Transcript is useless). So perhaps Richard WHITE is a brother of James and therefore this Catherine NELLES's uncle-in-law  ???
Title: Re: In the presence of...
Post by: Gadget on Wednesday 27 January 10 14:38 GMT (UK)
I've been going through the baptisms and found a Donkin - there are quite a few Thomas Donkin (variations) in Durham on the IGI. I've not done a full check yet.

Title: Re: In the presence of...
Post by: josey on Wednesday 27 January 10 14:47 GMT (UK)
The flourish certainly looks like an upper case D compared with others. Perhaps the letter between Thos & the D is an upper case I for a middle name?

The next 2 letters look very like the a & u of Maugham [the registrar's name].

Josey
Title: Re: In the presence of...
Post by: Nel86 on Wednesday 27 January 10 15:06 GMT (UK)
I've been able to confirm that there was both a Richard White and a James White born to a Richard and Elizabeth White in South Shields in the 1780s so theory on that one is looking good.

I'm of the opinion the middle initial is an S - compare it with "Sept". Perhaps this stands for STRATFORD  ::)
Title: Re: In the presence of...
Post by: josey on Wednesday 27 January 10 15:34 GMT (UK)
Good thinking re STRATFORD...

Yes, I'd go with S.
Title: Re: In the presence of...
Post by: josey on Wednesday 27 January 10 15:48 GMT (UK)

I suspect that this Catherine NELLES is either a possible daughter of James NELLES and Catherine STRATFORD (m. 18 Sep 1805 at St. Hilda's, South Shields according to the I.G.I. but the bishop transcript is missing) or Catherine got remarried. If she got remarried, I don't see why she would need her parents consent though so a daughter seems more likely.



Just a thought - if Catherine was a daughter of this marriage [1805] would she not be a bit young to be getting married in 1819?

Josey
Title: Re: In the presence of...
Post by: Nel86 on Wednesday 27 January 10 16:05 GMT (UK)
Just a thought - if Catherine was a daughter of this marriage [1805] would she not be a bit young to be getting married in 1819?

Josey

For what reason would the registrar mention parental consent other than her being under the age of consent?

I have a Maria Anna, christened as daughter to James NELLES and Catherine, born 12 Nov 1806. This Catherine married on 3 Sep 1819 - a 12 year, 9 month, 21 day gap.  Is Maria Anna a variant of Catherine?  The age of consent for girls in 1819 was 12, wasn't it?

I'm getting desperate now  ;D I guess I will start trawling the B.T's to see if this Catherine and William FOX had any children (the I.G.I. only goes to Dec 1812  :'()
Title: Re: In the presence of...
Post by: josey on Wednesday 27 January 10 16:20 GMT (UK)

For what reason would the registrar mention parental consent other than her being under the age of consent?

I have a Maria Anna, christened as daughter to James NELLES and Catherine, born 12 Nov 1806. This Catherine married on 3 Sep 1819 - a 12 year, 9 month, 21 day gap.  Is Maria Anna a variant of Catherine?  The age of consent for girls in 1819 was 12, wasn't it?


I didn't know that, thanks for the info. Now having looked it up I also didn't know it was changed to 13 as late as 1875.

Have you ever found William & Catherine on a census to know what age she said she was? Could it be that the child was baptised Maria Anna to satisfy the family name sequence, but was known as Catherine?

Josey
Title: Re: In the presence of...
Post by: Nel86 on Wednesday 27 January 10 16:30 GMT (UK)
Have you ever found William & Catherine on a census to know what age she said she was? Could it be that the child was baptised Maria Anna to satisfy the family name sequence, but was known as Catherine?

I haven't been able to find a William & Catherine FOX anywhere.

The only baptism in the I.G.I, in South Shields, for a William FOX is in Sep 1812 - which is obviously way too late. The mother however is an Ann Stote CROFTON....and there is a Robert Stote FOX in the 1881 census born circa 1820 in South Shields....which could be the son of William and Catherine?  Or maybe Stote is so common I am just chasing my tail.

By the way josey, your cats are beautiful.
Title: Re: In the presence of...
Post by: josey on Wednesday 27 January 10 16:37 GMT (UK)
Thanks - they were a mother & 3 month old kitten rescued in July. The 'boy' is bigger than his mother now!!

Title: Re: In the presence of...
Post by: Redroger on Thursday 28 January 10 14:32 GMT (UK)
Yes, I'll go with a long S or a capital copperplate L. I like the cats too!
Title: nelles newcastle
Post by: gen newcastle on Tuesday 28 June 11 13:30 BST (UK)
hi i am the great great grandson of william nelles b1810 newcastle upon tyne can tell me how you fit into my family tree
Title: Re: In the presence of...
Post by: angela101 on Sunday 27 May 12 20:39 BST (UK)
Maria Anna was Mary Ann my gg grandmother. As it was a Catholic Baptism all names are in the latin version. She married Matthew Todd in 1837.

angela
Title: Re: In the presence of...
Post by: bartonbeach on Sunday 24 April 16 18:59 BST (UK)
Tracing the Stote family of Horsley Hill, Jarrow Mary was the daughter of Robert Stote 1713-1796. She married John Crofton on 8 June 1778 at St Hilda, South Shields. Presume that she married for a second time to a Fox. Cliff