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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Down => Topic started by: AussieGaz on Saturday 23 January 10 05:05 GMT (UK)
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I have been researching our direct family for 30+ years and found our roots to around 1858 when John SHAW married Ann BYRNE in Tullyorior.
Of the three children, I have done about as much as I think I can do on our direct relative Thomas SHAW born on 29th March 1862.
He had two brothers John Shaw baptised on 27th September 1858 (might have been 6th December 1858 as there were two entries) and also James SHAW baptised 21st July 1860. Both of these are linked to Tullyorior.
I have no idea who these two brothers married (if they did!!) , if they left Tullyorior or anything, and in a desperate bid to try and find information, thought I would try RootsChat.
Does anyone know anything at all about these two brothers?
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Reply #8 on this thread has details on this family which you've previously posted-
www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,180915.msg2948467.html#msg2948467
1911 census is now online so you can check for the Shaw family there-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search
Another online resource is civil registration index-
http://pilot.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#p=collectionDetails;t=searchable;c=1408347
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Thanks aghadowey for the tips and your help today.
Very much appreciated.
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Hi AussieGaz,
Have a look at http://www.raymondscountydownwebsite.com/html/index2.htm
You will find info on families from the Banbridge district.
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Hi Sam
Went on raymondscountydownwebsite and found our relatives mentioned in the Griffiths Valuation for Tullyorior. Its going to take ages to crawl through all of the valuable information in the site, which is exciting.
Thanks
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Here's Griffith's Valuation site which has scans of original printed pages and maps-
www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml
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Hi aghadowey
Thanks for that bit of information. Its brilliant to actually see the original entry.
I paid a commercial company years ago to get this information for me, as, at that time, it was the days of telex, wet paper copiers etc. etc (in archives now!!!).
Now its readily available, when knowledgeable people like yourself are prepared to share what they know.
Thanks a stack for this.
Gaz
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Hey there AussieGaz. I was researching the Shaw family in my area and I found that the shaw family was well established in my area in years gone by. They lived down a long lane which had a number of houses belonging to the Shaw's on it and was in fact called "Shawstown" two of the houses still remain.
I spoke to a number of my older neighbours and they told me that their parents told them there was a James and Rose-Ann Shaw which lived there and they were brother and sister who never married.
I guess this must have been around the start of the 1900s and I take it they were probably a brother and sister of your relative Thomas. One neighbour did infact say there was a shaw that emigated to Australia but he wasn't exactly sure of his name. I hope this helps in some way.
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Hi mickwally
Thanks so much for your message and the insight. This information is s exciting. Our Thomas Shaw came out to Australia in 1886 and its his family that remained that I am trying to find out about.
James and Rosenana are mentioned in the 1911 Census as living in house 59 in Tullyorior. James was 52 and the Head of the Family. His brother Thomas was 49, sister Agnes 36 and another sister Roseanna was 33 all living.
I have obtained information from the Griffiths Valuations which give farm numbers etc - not knowing the area at all, how easy would it be to find these original farms - our John Shaw Jnr and Snr were in 13a and 13b.
If you know of anyone who has a digital camera, could they take any photos of the area for me?
How easy is it, do you know, to get copies of birth, marriage and death certificates of people who lived in the Tullyorior area? This must sound like a really simple question to be honest. Sorry!!
One thing that I have been trying to get clarification of for years is in which cemetery a relative was buried, I have written to the parish priest several teems, and no reply as of yet. I am told that the money and securities were in the hands of the Rev. John Mooney, the parish priest of Annaclone, however this does not mean he was buried there, I tend to believe now. His name was John Shaw and he died on 9th March 1866 and two headstones (no details) were to be placed in the family burying ground at Annaclone chapel yard.
Blank on this one so far!!
Anyway mickwally, I appreciate you getting back to me with that information.
Regards
Gaz.
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Well then that must be the James and Roseanna Shaw which my neighbour told me about. The townland of Tullyorior and all the houses in it are based around what's known as Circular Road. You said they that lived in house number 59 i don't understand this as it couldn't be the right number unless houses numbers have changed since that.
The Shaws lived down that lane which I told you about and John Shaw Jnr & Snr farms which were at 13a & b would be right as another neighbour of mine lives in 13 Circular Road and they are at the top of the lane.
I could take photos of the houses which are still standing. Do I just email them to you and what?
You could probably get a birth cert. easy enough at the local council offices I would say.
I could certainly check the graveyard the next time i'm there for you if you want it is most likely that he is buried in Annaclone graveyard. John Shaw probably left all his money and land to the parish as that's what most people did in those days.
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Just to clear up some confusion here- 59 in 1911 census is the house number on the census form and not part of the 'address.' In the countryside townland names were used and there would have been no road names or house numbers.
Also, local registrar's only keep copies of marriage registers not birth and death records.
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Oh right thanks for letting me know I wasn't sure what way it worked in the past. I couldn't be exactly sure if they keep a record of people's birth cert from years gone by but all i know is they do have birth certs for people who are still living as I got a copy of my own birth cert. through them a few months back.
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Hi mickwally and also aghadowey
Thanks to both of you for your comments, insight and knowledge on Tullyorior and the goings on. I find it so exciting to get home from work to "discover" what other bits of new, hidden history you have provided on our family's past.
On the photos, if you could take some snaps that would be really the best prize as it will be the first time that anyone of our family would have "seen" where we come from in 150 years.
On the e-mail question and sending me copies of the photos, I will have to look up the rules and regs of RC to see if I am allowed to pass this information over a public domain.
I will let you know when I find out.
Thanks to you both for enlightening me on our history
Gaz
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I have had a read and updated my profile as a result.
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You might want to check for photos posted on geograph site. There's at least one of Tullyorior and if you search in the surrounding grids there could be others.
http://www.geograph.ie/photo/222013
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Hi again aghadowey
Thank for that brilliant site - the photos are brilliant and it showed such a beautiful part of Co. Down. I will spend more time this weekend looking at more of the photos. Wll that is my weekend taken care of!!
Thanks
Gaz
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Hi Aussie Gaz,
I was wondering if you could give me all the info. you have on the shaw family to date it's just there is a history book being done on the area at the moment and the shaw family is included in it. Also if you want to take another look at the photos on the geograph.ie as i have posted some photos of tullyorior up on it for you. Thanks a million Mick
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Funnily enough, I saw the photos just last night by chance and showed our whole family them as they are brilliant. They are like picture postcards some of them. I commented about the photo that had the old school in it (assuming that it is the Tullyorior School) and said that one day; it is a dream to visit the area.
Thanks for them – at least others can share the beauty as well :)
On the research that I have done, do you have an e-mail I can send it to as it is quite substansive? I had a look at your profile and there was nothing?
Many thanks
Gaz
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My email address (*) so if you could send it to me that would be brilliant. I will take lots more photos of the area and post them up on that website as well. I think you really enjoy a trip over here because it is a lovely part of the country where the shaws came from and there's lots of great places to stay in the area.
(*) Moderator Comment: e-mail removed in accordance with RootsChat policy,
to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
New members must make at least three postings before being allowed to use the PM facility.
See Help-Page: http://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php
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Hi Mick
As suggested by the Moderator, I have sent you a 4 part message that includes the 2,500 word summary and information on "our Shaw's".
I hope that it makes sense to anyone reading it. I have had no way of confirming some of the detail and have only gone by what I have discovered, but it still is exciting.
Best of luck to you and regards
Gary
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Hi Gary,
The information you gave me was brilliant and very interesting thanks a million. I only have a few questions that i was wondering if you could answer to it does matter like if you can't. I was just wondering do you know what Rose Shaw's maiden name was who was married to Michael Shaw and do you know when the date Agnes and Rose-anna shaw were born?
Thanks Michael
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G/day Michael
Thanks for your message.
As I mentioned before, they are not direct relatives as such, so my research has not really gone into much depth into their lives.
What has been glanced upon though, and in answer to your question, Rose Shaw’s maiden name might have been McMahon. She died in 18th April 1910 at age of 74 so that would equate to a birth date of around 1836. Her daughter Agnes is mentioned on the entry.
As for your other question, Agnes, a spinster died on 21st September 1913 aged 45 so her birth date might have been around 1868 and a Thomas Shaw (her brother!!) is mentioned in the entry. Roseanne I am not sure on at all.
There are several other lineage lines of Shaw’s that I have tried to link up, but I have not gone into any depth on them, again, because of them be distant to us.
Having said that, your question has got me really interested.
All of the above could well be open for correction, and I would welcome the clarification if this is so.
Regards
Gary
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On the Tullyorior road opposite what is know as Shaws barn there is a lane up to a farm previously owned by Mrs Campbell just wondering if anybody has a map or photograph showing this lane.
Hope to hear from someone
Laura
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Would like to see photograph of Tullyorior school if any one has one
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Hi there Laura2010
mickwalley has a great photo of the countryside which also includes the Tullyorior school in it. Look on http://www.geograph.ie/photo/222013.
Not a close up one, but its a great shot.
On the map side of things i have an old Surveyors General map that shows Shawstown. I do not remember the date off hand, but will have a look this weekend.
AussieGaz
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Thanks so much for your help and infor that you might have on this lane pictures maps general info I would love to have trying to retrace my homeland.
Thanks
Laura
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Hi All,
If anyone is interested you can now see the area you are discussing on Google Earth. Just type in the postal code BT32 5JP
Cheers, Sam.
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Hi Sam
Thanks for that. I will have to get my 1905 Ordnance Survey Map out again and try and find the landmarks on Google Earth. The spot that I'm taken to by GE, seems to be little north of Tullyorior and to the east of Banbridge however I will only be able to confirm that once I have had time to have a good look.
much appreciated
Gaz.
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Hi again Laura2010
No idea what happened to my last reply to you!!
Your question got my interest going so I rumaged around when I got home from work this evening for the map.
It was printed in 1905 by the Director General of the Ordnance Survey Office, Phoenix Park, Dublin and shows Shawstown, Byrnestown, Kearneystown and Tullyorior School at the road junction. It was reprinted again in 1929.
So where do your roots stem from then Laura??
regards
Gary
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Hi Gary
My roots are from Tullyorior. Would be interested in getting a copy of the map you have if at all possible.
Thanks
Laura
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Hi Laura
The map is fairly large - an option could be is to try and contact the Ordnance Survey Office in Dublin or try http://www.phoenixpark.ie/ as they have great maps available.
Would be interested in hearing how you get along.
regards
Gary
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Hi Laura2010,
I know the lane that your talking about where mrs.campbell used to live it is now owned by the pyers family. Are you a relative of the campbells?Shaw's barn which was opposite the entrance to the lane and it is no longer there but it was a place where people used to go to dance. I have close up pics of both tullyorior schools and also the classes of pupils who went there. If you want to know any information i'm sure i could find out for you.
Mick
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Hi Mick
I am not sure about Laura, but it is so exciting having a person who has intimate knowledge about a location where our distant relatives used to walk and live in.
Are the photos of the school on your geograph site ta all?
I was not aware that there were two Tullyorior schools Mick. The only one that I was aware of is the one by the intersection. Now you have planted the seed as to which school our relatives might have gone to in times long gone.
Thanks for your information and updates. Not many people I am sure have the luxury of "an insider" to their past!!! :)
Gary
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Yeah well it is very interesting for me finding out information about my local area to and its strange to think that people lived and farmed the countryside long before we were around. Shaws barn that laura mentioned was the first thing came to mind when I heard about Shaw family I never knew Shawstown existed.
I would love to find out existly which Shaw owned the barn but it's located at the bottom of a field what was owned by Felix Burns so it was probably John Shaw Jnr's.
I'm still in the process of putting this article about Shawstown together for local history book that is being published next month its just hard to piece together the information about the family tree. I think it started with John Shaw and he three sons Michael, John, Edward and Anne but i can't work out if John Shaw Snr had anymore in the family. It doesn't have to be perfect but it would be good if I get it as close as I could. I also found out that Drumballyroney Church was Catholic at that time it is no longer Catholic which is interesting.
The book has some great history of the local area and includes some amazing stories about Tullyorior. That old map that you have would be brilliant for it but as you say it's quite big. It would really help people understand the area better. I hope maybe when it's completed that I could send you a copy of it.
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Getting back to what you said about the two Tullyorior Schools the one that's in photo is the one which was built in 1861 and i'm positive that's were your relatives would have went to. The other school wasn't built to 1966 and it closed in 1985 it is presently owned by my father. I actually took close-up photographs of both schools the other day because they are being included in the book also and I will put them up on that website over the weekend. I'm going down to Shawstown tomorrow to take photographs of the last remaining house.
Mick
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Hi Mick
Im trying to trace back as far as I can with my ancestors there is a connection with Campbells just not sure yet. Any old photographs of the lane which I refer to as campbells and you say is owned by pyers family would be helpful. Gaz tells me he has a map but I have tried the phoenixpark website but cant seem to get any were. Any info you have would be great.
Thanks
Laura
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Mick and Laura
Some more information that I have got from my files.
This is all subject to correction, as it is put together from the many scrap pieces of paper that I have collected over the years.
1) John Shaw Jnr married a Jane Byrne and had the following children – John (d. 1912 aged 59 = DOB +/- 1853) who might have married a Sarah, Catherine (b. 1864), Mary Elizabeth (b. 1866), Hugh (b. 1867) and Mathew (b. 1871)
2) John Shaw Snr (d. aged 82 in 1866 = DOB +/-1784) married Anne Byrne (died 1881 aged 48 = DOB +/- 1833) in February 1858. They had the following children – John (d. 1881 aged 27 = DOB +/- 1858), James (b. 1860), and Thomas (b. 1862) and possibly Matt.
3) Michael (d 1891 at aged 87 = DOB of +/- 1804) married a Rose McMahon (d. 1910 = DOB of +/- 1836). They had the following children – James (d. 1925 aged 72 = DOB +/- 1853), Thomas (d. 1914 aged 51 = DOB +/- 1863), Agnes (d. 1913 aged 45 = DOB +/- 1868) and Roseanne.
I also have records of the following loose Shaw’s:
4) Annie Shaw who died 1880 aged 40 = DOB +/- 1840
5) Edward Shaw who died 1874 aged 73 = DOB +/- 1801
6) William Shaw (d. 1859 aged 50 = DOB +/- 1809) who married Catherine (d. 1853 aged 36 = DOB +/- 1817)
7) John Shaw (b. 1764 d. 1838) married Elizabeth?? (b. 1762 d.1835) and they might have had the following children – James (b. 1796 d. 1825) and john (b. 1805 d. 1826).
8) John Shaw married another Elizabeth (b. 1814 d.1893) and might have had the following children – Alexander (b. 1844 d. 1846), John (b. 1834 d. 1866) Elizabeth (b. 1847 d. 1868) and James (b. 1841 d. 1873)
9) Randal Shaw (b. 1774 d. 1862) married a Jan (b. 1790 d. 1880) and might have had the following children – William (b. 1807 d. 1877) and John (b. 1817 d. 1879)
Comments:
The two Johns and Michael above might be the same people mentioned in the Griffiths Valuation for Garvaghy. Co. Down for 1863-64, as well as the Edward and Annie above.
Laura – on the same the Griffiths Valuation for Garvaghy. Co. Down for 1863-64 there are the following Campbell’s – John, Mary, Patrick and also Terence
Mick from the notes that I sent to you in 4 Parts, the farm assumption seems to be correct as by 1883, 13A was owned by a Felix Burns.
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Laura
If you are researching the Campbell lineage, try looking at:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/results.jsp?surname=campbell&firstname=&county=Down&townland=tullyorior&ded=&age=&sex=&search=Search&relationToHead=&religion=&education=&occupation=&marriageStatus=&birthplace=&language=&deafdumb=&marriageYears=&childrenBorn=&childrenLiving=
It gives 6 Campbells on the 1911 Census of Ireland living in Tullyorior. :)
Gary
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Hi Mick
Im trying to trace back as far as I can with my ancestors there is a connection with Campbells just not sure yet. Any old photographs of the lane which I refer to as campbells and you say is owned by pyers family would be helpful. Gaz tells me he has a map but I have tried the phoenixpark website but cant seem to get any were. Any info you have would be great.
Thanks
Laura
Laura
Another site that you can "play" with is www.osiemaps.ie and the public viewer as they call it. Look in the section "Historic Map Archive".
On this site you can look up Banbridge and the surrounding area and view historic maps of Tullyorior, which is quite exciting.
Gary
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Hi Gary.
I have went through the research that had given me about the shaw family and it all seems to be correct so you will be glad to hear that as i have doubled checked the most of it with church records. It has been a great help thank you so much.
The only thing that im still confused about is the John Shaw who died in 1912 and was the last owner of the land at shawstown. He was left that by his uncle John Shaw who is connected to your ancestor as this is what his will states. However the John Shaw who died in 1912 his father couldn't also have been called John also because then that would mean there would be two brothers both called John? It's abit hard to understand it all but i'm going to the public record office to see can i find his birth cert. to see who his parents were. If you know anymore about this that would be brilliant but I know you already given me all the info. you have.
Also you see that old map you have does it say shawstown and kearneytown on it? It's just I seen one the other night that gives both areas of Tullyorior.
Mick
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Hi there Mick
The difficult part on my research is going back further than the marriage of our John Shaw to Anne Byrne in 1858. I have had little luck in finding out more on John Shaw's family i.e. brothers and sisters as this would answer your question. On the basis that he was 82 when he died, then his DOB would have been around 1784.
When John Shaw Snr died in 1866, his Will mentions a nephew John and a niece Catherine.
Working on your assumption Mick, the John Shaw who died in 1912 was born around 1853 because he was 59 when he passed away. I was told that his father was also a John and mother Jane. The point of conjecture is that the "1912" John was born around 1853 - we have not proved that this John Shaw was the nephew who was left the land by my relative because he would have been only 13 when John Shaw died in 1866!! However there was a John Shaw who proved the Will in Belfast in 1866 together with a Hugh Byrne and a Hugh Hill (Inn Keeper) as they were all Executors. If the young John was left the farm, that might explain the involvement of his father John. Very confusing!!
The other brothers of John Shaw were born after 1866 which explains why they were not mentioned in the Will.
I look forward to learning if you find anything in the certificates.
The map that I do have does mention Shawstown on it by the way as well as Kearnytown. I can copy the section off my map and send it to you via a message if you are interested??
Keep well and happy researching.
Gaz
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Hi Gary.
I have went through the research that had given me about the Shaw family and it all seems to be correct so you will be glad to hear that as i have doubled checked the most of it with church records. It has been a great help thank you so much.
The only thing that I'm still confused about is the John Shaw who died in 1912 and was the last owner of the land at Shawstown. He was left that by his uncle John Shaw who is connected to your ancestor as this is what his will states. However the John Shaw who died in 1912 his father couldn't also have been called John also because then that would mean there would be two brothers both called John? It's a bit hard to understand it all but I'm going to the public record office to see can i find his birth cert. to see who his parents were. If you know anymore about this that would be brilliant but I know you already given me all the info. you have.
Also you see that old map you have does it say Shawstown and Kearneytown on it? It's just I seen one the other night that gives both areas of Tullyorior.
Mick
Mick I have also just found out in the course of my research, a graveyard inscription from the Donaghcloney Cl graveyard in Magherana the following inscription:
Erected by John Shaw in memory of his son, James who departed this life the 2nd of December 1825 aged 29 years. And also John who departed this life the 4th of October 1826 aged 21 years. Elizabeth Shaw departed this life 24th January 1835 aged 73 years. Also her husband John Shaw departed this life 22nd June 1838 aged 74 years. Could they be related?
There is also an inscription from the Ballynahinch graveyard referring to John Shaw's but I am not sure the proximity to Tullyorior here!!
Regards
Gaz
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Hi Mick
I'm trying to trace back as far as I can with my ancestors there is a connection with Campbells just not sure yet. Any old photographs of the lane which I refer to as campbells and you say is owned by Pyers family would be helpful. Gaz tells me he has a map but I have tried the phoenixpark website but cant seem to get any were. Any info you have would be great.
Thanks
Laura
Laura – on the Griffiths Valuation for Garvaghy. Co. Down for 1863-64 there are the following Campbell’s – John, Mary, Patrick and also Terence.
Gaz
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Morning Mick
Been wondering recently how the progress is going on the history book on the Tullyorior area? I would assume slowly, however would be interesting to know if you have had a good response from people interested in contributing to it.
regards
Gaz
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Hi Gaz,
It's good to hear from you again I was actually just going to contact you about our new website which I think you might find very interesting its www.annaclonehistory.com. Here you will see Tullyorior new school and the old school both have now closed but the shaws would have went to the old one.
The history book is coming on really well we are within weeks of finishing it and it comes out at the end of August we had 500 copies and most of them are already pre-ordered. There are some great stories about Tullyorior which I never even heard of. I did the article on Shawstown and it turned out great. I checked all the info. you gave me and the most of it is correct. I was wondering though if you could send me that bit you have on Thomas' path to Australia as I was going to do abit on him for the emigation section. I would also loved to have seen a photo of him but you may not have one.
Mick
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Hi Mick
Good to get you reply. I am on 10 days leave so have spent many quality hours doing my own thing at the State Library and State Archives here in Brisbane, trying to get more information on Thomas Shaw and his early days here.
How much detail do you require on him Mick? Let me know and I will provide it.
I could send you a PM like I did before with a whole lot of details. He arrived in Sydney on 4th June 1886 on the S.S Energia from Plymouth, and is buried in Charters Towers where he passed away in August 1911.
On the subject of the book, please, please can I order one? Do you require a down payment?
Appreciate your interest.
Gary
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Yeah I have actually had a few days off there myself and I away at the Irish and local studies library in Armagh but you could spend weeks looking through things its very interesting.
That would be great if you could send it to me in a Pm just whatever you have and I will write a little bit about Thomas for the book. Is there any chance you might have a photo of him?
Of course you can order a book although i'm not sure how you could pay for it because you have only got the website set up and have no payment system yet. Some people have been sending us cheques. The book costs 20 pounds and it will be out in the next couple of weeks.
Mick
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Hi Mick
I will send you the information you have asked for in a PM just as soon after I have sent this off to you.
If you can give me your address in a PM, the cheque will be in the mail to you soonest. No photo I am afraid. I have asked the family, however their enthusiasm for the research of the family is much less than my own i am afraid to say.
I envy you having so much research locations and repositories at your fingertips!!
regards
Gary
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Hi Mick
You asked me about having a map of the area that the Shaw's came from. I have found a 1840 OS map of the area which shows Shawstown, Byrnestown and Kearnystown which also identifies the farms of each of the farm owners as identified on the Griffiths Valuation.
When you then produce a Google Map download of the same area, its facinating.
regards
Gaz
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Hi Gaz!
Yeah I actually have that map myself I got it recently from the 0S but mine is dated 1834. It's amazing to see how the countryside has changed over the years especially the fields most of the smaller fields have gone and replaced with large ones. The other thing is the huge number of houses there was but most of them have disappeared now although there is still some old ruins.
I was actually read some new info. last night in the book regarding the shaws in tullyorior which I hadn't read before but someone else had done that research you see so I really how much more there could be until you see the whole book together i can't wait.
Mick
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G/day Mick
More research been done on the Shaw's. Now that is really exciting and I cannot wait to read the book once it is published. To learn out the blue that the family name has struck an element of interest to someone else is fascinating.
Keep well and thanks for the update
Gaz
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Hi Mick
Compliments of the season to you and your family, and hope your had a good Christmas and New Year and were able to recharge the batteries.
Just wanted t let you know that I received the book during this last week - very exciting and cannot wait to start reading it.
Posted here in Aussie, so that is a little mystery in itself!!!
Thanks for letting me know about the book, and regards
Gaz
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Glad to hear you received your copy of the book OK I was afraid you might not get it so I sent it with someone who was going to Australia. I hope it gives you a better background knowledge of the area and tells you more about the Shaw family. The book has been a major success over here with 600 copies sold within a few weeks and we are currently waiting on our second print. Also keep an eye on our website as we are in the process of creating a database of the different families in the area and we might be able to give you more info. than we already have.
Hope to hear from you soon and any questions you have feel free to ask me.
Mick
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The Annaclone & Drumballyroney publication I received has been excellent in clarifying many aspects of my research into the Shaw side of the family. As you know in genealogical research, it’s safer in building a credible history not to take on face value all you find, and the book has helped a lot in adding credence to what I have. Having said that, the book has also succeeded in unearthing more questions!
From previous communications, John Shaw was buried in the family burying ground at Annaclone Chapel Yard according to his 1866 will. We have not identified the exact location; however the book confirms that Fr. John Mooney was the Parish priest at the time. I am sure that the investigative work to find the exact location has been at St. Coleman’s Annaclone Church and might have missed St. Mary’s Magheral Church where Fr. Mooney was PP (pg. 93). Would this make sense and if so, how could I get the names of all buried in this graveyard?
I wonder if the John Shaw mentioned in the special parish meeting of 1839 (pg. 130) might have been "our" relative taking into account his association with the church?
The flax growers of Ireland list in 1796 (pg. 234) mentions a William Shaw of Drumballyroney. Question is raised if he could be related to our family as the townland of Tullyorior in part of this parish? John Shaw was born in 1784 and we have yet to identify his parents!
Great effort to all concerned Mick, and if the second publication has much more new material, please do let me know?
By the way, I did discover the website by chance, and have put my ten cents worth in the Guestbook
Gary
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Well I have already checked the Annaclone graveyard and there is defiantly no sign of John's grave unless he could be one of the unmarked gravestones that there is. He could also be buried in old Ardbrin graveyard as that's where they buried people during the 1700s - 1800s. Although you could be right he might be buried in Magheral graveyard but it is unlikely as it's at the other end of the parish, Annaclone would be closest to the shaw family. We have all the names of those who are buried there anyway so I will check them just incase. That John Shaw that was at the special meeting which was held most likely was your relative. The William Shaw however, is probably not related and would be part of a different shaw family. Part of Tullyorior townland belongs to Annaclone civil parish and the other half is in garvaghy parish. Just the same as there is another Shaw mentioned at Ballynanny school but again this was a different family. Its really great to hear from people like yourself that belong to families that once lived here & now have emigrated. We have sent many books to the 4 corners of the world to different people seeking info. I was wondering do you know of any other societies in Australia that might have people like yourself who wish to find out about their relatives in Ireland? I was just thinking if there was then maybe you could past on our details and we would be more than glad to help them out if we could. There won't be any extra info. in the next book it is mainly just extra photos that people came forward with after we had printed the book.
Hope to hear from you again soon
Michael
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Hi Mick
Still reading through the book which is so fascinating.
A year or so ago, you mentioned you were going up to take a picture of the two "house"s still to be seen in Shawtown.
Did you ever get around to doing so, as it would be fascinating to see them?
regards
Gaz
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Hi Mick
Just on annual leave and a great time to catch up on my research and see what I might have missed and what new pearls I can unearth.
In a previous post, you asked if I could spread the word to organisations / associations / magazines I know about with regards your Annaclone Historical Society.
Just FYI, I sent your webpage information and also an outline of your book to the editors of the following Australian groups who print magazines:
Australian Family Tree Connections,
Genealogical Society of Queensland, and also
Australia and New Zealand Inside History Magazine.
Hope something comes of it for yourselves.
Gary
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I am interested in the Burns/Byrne connections in Tullorior, Co. Down and indeed in all of Co. Down. Griffiths Valuation shows many Burns families in this townland. There seem to be a large number of my Burns family who are descended from the Byrnes of Co. Wicklow. My own family is from Belfast where I was born and I have proven through DNA that I am descended from the Leinster Byrnes. My first question is about Byrnestown which is shown in the OS maps of Griffiths and even on more modern OS maps in the 1940s. Does anyone know anything about the history of this "town" or where I might look for more information? I am attaching a map showing the Burns who are listed in Tullyorior in Griffiths. The locations are accurately located in GIS. Thanks for anyone's help in advance.
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I will try and see what I can unearth on the County Down Byrnestown, however just FYI, in Queensland, Australia there is also a Byrnestown. Lore has it that in 1893 forty Irish settlers were given a parcel of land to support a cooperative settlement. Brimming with utopian optimism, courage and a small amount of financial support from the Queensland government they ventured to a place so unlike Ireland.
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Hello AussieGaz!
I was delighted to hear from you and have read the entire correspondence about the Shaw family with great interest, including the existence of Shawstown and Kearneystown. And yes I was aware of the great social experiment that was done at the Australian Byrnestown. I discovered the Co. Down version by accident on an OS map as I was doing GIS on Burns families. Suddenly there it was on a 1940s OS map and it is recorded on 1867 Griffiths maps. Then I did a search and found the wonderful story of the Aussie version. But there was no obvious connection between the two. My feeling was that the utopian experiment (as you so aptly labelled it!) happened with Irish families who were already in Australia, although Byrnes were involved. If you could find a direct connection to Down that would be something!
I have been trying to find a familial connection between my Belfast Burns, the Co. Down Burns and the Byrnes of Wicklow. There are lots of clues, including wills, oral traditions and now DNA data that shows the connection for sure. The most famous Byrne was Fiach McHugh O'Byrne of the late 16th century who was a firebrand in opposition to English occupation of Ireland. Some Byrnes were in quite a bit of trouble after his assassination in 1597 and may have moved north then or after the Battle of Kinsale in 1603.
A couple of centuries later other Byrnes were involved in the 1798 rebellion in Dublin and Co. Wicklow. And there was also strong support in the north for a degree of independence because of the suppression of economic growth of Belfast by England. As a result of the various uprisings two of the Byrnes were executed, one in Dublin and one in Wicklow town and both were called William. There is a classic statue to Billy Byrne in the center of modern Wicklow. He was much admired, just 24 years old and 6 feet 6 inches tall. Perhaps there was more northern migration then.
Previously I have noticed the folk around Banbridge are really interested in their past and have gone to great lengths to document the various graveyards in the area, and also church records of all denominations. My hope is that some local lore might help in finding a few facts about the settling of Tullyorior (or elsewhere) by so many Byrne/Burns families. In some respects it may have been regarded as a safer place since it is protected to the north by the Bann river and transportation was possible through a branch railway running along the Bann from Banbridge.
There are a few more interesting facts, but I better stop here.
Regards.
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Hello,
I am new to Rootschat. I have Byrnes/Burns/Byrns roots in Tullyorior. My great grandmother was Ann Jane Byrns (b~1825, died 1875 in Banbridge). She was married to Hugh McCourt. I have not been able to find a marriage record for them, or a birth/baptism record for Ann Jane. They were Catholic.
I have been working on family genealogy for over 50 years. DNA matches are finally breaking down some of my brickwalls. I have several DNA matches to folks descended from Edward Ogle Byrnes (B~1815 and Married to Catherine Clarke), John Henry Byrns (B~1827 and married to Agnes Lennon, Dina Byrns (B 1881 and married to Josepg O'Dowd), and Patrick Burns (b ~1820 and moved to Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA). I think these may all be my great grandmother's brothers.
I see on the map that someone has posted where the farms of Edward Ogle Burns, Dina Burns, and John Burns are located in Tullyorior. Thank you so much for posting that!
Does any one have any connection to these Burns/Byrns/Byrnes families? I would love to find out who my great grandmother's parents were.
Thanks you.
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Hello CalicoCat124
Replying from Brisbane, Australia
Just been into RootsChat after some years and saw your post.
I haven't really researched the Bryne's ide of the family to be honest, however have found these little bits of info that mentioned the name.
1803 Agricultural Census
This agricultural census was taken in 1803 and although the amount of information from each parish varies, it is a very useful source from an early date. The returns for the parish of Garvaghy were examined and information relating to our family was found in the townland of Tullyorior. There were however three different sections which had townland names which may have been alternative spellings of Tullorier.
The first was Tullyory. At the time of the first Ordinance Survey the local pronunciation was [Tul-ly-‘o-ry], appearing in written form on a local tombstone: Tullyory (1810) in Annaclone graveyard. In this townland were found six Byrns – Val. Byrns, […]ilmore Byrns, John D […]ason Byrns, John ea[…] Byrns, […]ell Byrns and Arthur Byrns. We do not know the name of our Anne Byrnes father, although it is possible that it was one of these men.
We know that Garrett Valentine Byrne was connected to our family and Val. Bryns is probably short for Valentine Bryns. The 1803 Agricultural Census tells us that he had one oxen, five cows, two pigs, one riding horse, two draft horses, two cars (or carts), 700 bushels of oats, 20 loads of hay, 40 loads of straw and 40 sacks of potatoes, so he was quite a prosperous farmer.
The next townland heading was Tullyorey. At the time of the first Ordinance Survey this spelling in written form was found on one local tombstone: Tullyorey (1778) in Seapatrick graveyard. There were two Bryns in this section – Patrick Byrns and […]arrance Byrns as well as Mark Shaw. Mark Shaw had three cows, one pig, 60 bushels of oats, nine loads of straw and 20 sacks of potatoes.
Finally there was a townland section where the whole name could not be read because of how the book wad bound. The townland ended---rey. This townland has six Byrns – Edwd, Patrick, Edward, Bryne, Edwd., and John. There were also five Shaw’s listed – P[…]etter, Thomas, Patrick, Mark and Michael.
Not sure if any of this has any connection whatsoever to "your" Brynes, however thought I would share it
All the best
Gary
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Hello, this is my first post. I joined up today. I found this thread in a search online for Byrne in Tullyorior.
I had my DNA test done on a well known genealogy site and one thing I noticed was that I have matches in Tullyorior.
I would like to explore how I match these Byrnes.
Reading through this thread and others, I was intrigued to learn of these matches.
My Grandfather used to talk about the Byrnes of the Bog, and I think those Byrnes were from Banbridge, but we never knew anything about them more than that.
Could the Tullyorior Byrne’s be the Byrne’s of the bog?
I read in another thread that the Tullyorior Byrnes came up from Wicklow.
That’s interesting because I thought my paternal Ancestors came from Scotland. Possibly Burns but if my Ancestry is actually from Wicklow then that would be quite a revelation for me.