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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Sussex => Topic started by: Tilly92 on Monday 18 January 10 18:17 GMT (UK)
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Hello All
I am looking for William Graimes/Grimes/Grahams parents, he was born around 1858 in Brighton according to the censuses but can't seem to find in 1861 and 1871. Any help would be much appreciated.
Paul
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Bit tricky with so many variations!
Could this be his birth?
Oct/Nov/Dec 1860
Brighton 2b 164
William Henry Graimes
What have you got on him? Did he marry? Fathers name on marriage cert? 1881-1911 censuses? Middle name?
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I believe he married mercy hannah turner, I don't have his birth certificate I'm afraid. He had a daughter flora Francis graimes.
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The birth cert for Flora would confirm her mothers maiden name.
I cant immediately see her birth in the indexes - when was she born?
That will lead you to a marriage - which will lead you to William's fathers name, we hope, and also might provide a degree of conformity as to what name he used.
Can you give us the refs for the censuses you have found him on? I am struggling to see him on 1881/91 - was he married by then?
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If you have drawn a blank on him, Graimes is relatively unusual name, so try searching for possible Brighton born siblings on the censuses. Sarah Emily (b 1856) John (b 1860) Richard Berry (b 1861) Fanny (b 1862) Eliza Fanny (B 1864) Walter Abraham (b 1864)
I have found a William Graimes in Hove, but born 1868 not 1858. So I have to ask, especially as you have not told us the census you found your William on, are you sure you havent made an error of 10 when calculating his birth year by any chance? (There have been occasions when we've all done that)
Furthermore, could it have been him that married a widow called Mercy Funnel in 1899 in the Steyning district. Steyning also covers Hove by the way.
I did find a William H Grainer (General Dealer aged 44) and Mercy Grainer in Hamsey near Lewes in 1901. With them were their Brighton born children Ada (b 1887) and Albert (b 1896) but no Flora.
There were also two Graimes ladies on the 1911 Lewes census (a Lewes born Mercy Hannah aged 52 & Flora Frances Graimes aged 17) but Mercy was the head of household and no William was with them? Are both those combinations yours and do we presume William dead by then?
As the daughter Flora was 17 in 1911, and FreeBMD gives us no one called Flora or Florence Graimes, could it be that the Graimes marriage was a second marriage for Mercy, and the daughter was from her first?
There was a Mercy Turner who married a George Funnel in Brighton in 1881
Then a Flora Funnel born in Brighton in 1893
and a couple of George Funnells dying in Brighton in 1894 & 1895.
Trying to dovetail the above into your family history is very difficult until we get some more constructive answers, so the onus is on you to provide a few more details, including identifying the census where you got your info from and any other dates and places that might be helpful.
Have you the family on the 1891 census for example, and if so, can we have the details?
Roy G
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Sorry for the delay,
Ok, I found William Grahams living with Mercy Funnell on this census Sussex > Brighton > St Peter > District 11 > Image 19 in 1891. Saying that his birth was in 1858 as he was aged 33. And then in 1901. Yeah I also found that with no William in 1911, assuming that he died.
Flora Graimes married William Tillstone in 1912 at Lewes.
I believe that Mercy Funnells maiden name was Mercy Hannah Turner and she was born in 1857.
Still can't seem to find Flora on the 1901 census though,
Paul T
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OK Paul, now we are on the right track.
You want ....
[a] to find Flora (or Florence) in 1901 who may be under the surname of Funell or Graines, or varients of Graines?
a marriage of Mercy to William if they did get married?
Possibily the William who married a widow called Mercy Funnel in 1899 in the LEWES district.
[c] the probable death of William in the Lewes area between 1901 - 1911?
[d] the birth of William around 1857 in the Brighton area?
[e] given his age, had William been married before and if so, children from that union?
(there was one marriage in Brighton in 1880)
That gives us all something to aim at.
You also say you have the 1891 census, what children were with them then.
And as for the censuses (1901 & 1911) are you working as I am just from the indexes, or have you seen the full text? I ask because again it helps to know what children they had with them. From what we have seen so far, it seems a family trait to avoid civil registration wherever possible.
Roy G
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In 1891 there was
William H Grahams b.1880
Louise Funnell b.1877 (in law)
Ada Grahams b.1888
Jimmie Grahams 3 months old
All born in Brighton, Mercy Funnell is listed as a mother in law and born in Lewes, in 1857.
In 1901 there is a Florence Funnell born abt 1892, living with George Funnell aged 41 and Mary aged 39, but doubt this is the ones as she is just listed as Daughter.
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We seem to have a rather complex relationship here
(1891)
Looking at the children's births you have given us above, although the father's name may be Grahams (or Grames) freebmd has no records to fit. But it does have a William & Ada Funnell and James Funnell born Brighton in those birth years. So on the surface it looks as though that couple you found were living together and producing children but still had them registered under the wife's official surname. But are they couple you seek?
(1881)
If we go back to the 1881 Census RG11 / 1081 / 103 / 28
On that, it could be Mercy calling herself Mary, but then her husband George Funnell is still alive and living with her at 39 Ivory Place Brighton. In fact they only married that year and by then she already had 4 year old Louise.
I still feel strongly that Mary is the Mercy Turner that married a George Funnell in 1881 but you would need a certificate to find who was the father of Louise Funnell (b c1877).
Returning to the 1891 census.
All I can think of at the moment is a widow and widower, each with children of their own, becoming a couple (not necesarily leagally) and producing futher children. Perhaps Mercy uses the term 'IN LAW' not as we know it, but to mean birth mother.
Looks as though finding anything out positively though is going to cost, for your best option is to formulate a theory, go to the nearest known fact and start buying birth, marriage and death cetificates to either substantiate or refute it.
Roy G
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Its challenge so I hope you dont mind me still continuing by collecting facts and hypothasising.
Hence I use terms like 'BELIEVED to be!'
Re
In 1891 there was
William H Grahams b.1880
Louise Funnell b.1877 (in law)
Ada Grahams b.1888
Jimmie Grahams 3 months old
All born in Brighton, Mercy Funnell is listed as a mother in law (birth mother?) and born in Lewes, in 1857.
George Funnell, a 38 year old general dealer (would that have been a traveller?) appeared in Brighton on the 1881 census with wife Mary and her daughter Louise. George is BELIEVED to have only just married Mary (BELIEVED to have officially been Mercy ANNIE Turner) in Brighton in the June quarter of 1881. Her daughter Louise or Louisa's birth to Mercy Turner, single mum appears on the IGI as born 10 Oct 1876 baptised Lewes 14 Jan 1877. But there is no birth of a Louise or Louisa Turner in Dec quarter 1876 of FreeBMD. So Louise's birth may be in a place not yet on FreeBMD, went unregistered, or appears under the surname of her unknown father.
It is BELIEVED George died aged 41 in Brighton in the March quarter of 1884 and Mercy found a new partner who was another General Dealer (traveller?) called William Grahams, Grimes, Graines or other varients of that name. Mercy & William Grahams are on the 1891 census living together (where?) but it is not thought they were actually married. They did that in Lewes in 1899.
The 1891 census above therefore suggests that both brought children from their previous relationships into the family and they then had two or at least one further child (called Jimmie or James) together.
I'm positive
William H Grahams was William Henry Graimes (Birth reg Brighton Dec quarter 1880)
You should buy copy of this birth cert
Louise Funnel was Louisa Turner appearing on the IGI as born 10 Oct 1876 & baptised Lewes 14 Jan 1877.
I believe
Ada Grahams (b 1888) may have been registered in Brighton in the June quarter of 1887, but as Ada Funnell.
And Jimmie could either be James Edgar Turner (reg Lewes Mar quarter 1891) or James Friend Funnell (reg Lewes Dec quarter 1890)
So on the 1891 census:
Check out Ada Funnel B c1888 Brighton. Finding her elsewhere disproves the first belief above.
Check out the two James' born Lewes on the 1891 census in order to eliminate the one you do find.
Finding both disproves the second belief above.
Note; Sometimes birth places and places of registration do vary. (for example, I have had a birth officially registerd in Brighton for a child whose actual place of birth was recorded as at an address in Kent)
Final note
No idea whether there is a connection, but the 1901 census has a 7 year old Florence Graham born Brighton but living in Hove.
Roy G