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Some Special Interests => Occupation Interests => Topic started by: Ringoroses on Monday 18 January 10 10:08 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
I'm at a brickwall with my lot, so thought I might try and help someone dislodge a few bricks with theirs.
My 3xgreat grandfather was a Master Mariner and I have several crew agreements and such like for the ships he was on which list the men on board. As I'm very much aware of how difficult it is to trace mariners, I thought someone might be looking for some of these:
(Birth years are approximate)
Captain David Wright, b1844, Greenock
Captain Archibald McEachern b1845 Tobermory
Captain John Mitchell, b1838 Greenock
John Wilson, b1842 Glasgow
A Gilespie, b1850, Falkirk
Alexander Gunn, b1852, Stornaway
A Wright (or Wraight) b1844 Canterbury
Martin Nelson b1852, London
Oliver Muller, b1843, Rotterdam
Charles Smith, b1854, (birthplace unreadable – Breslow?)
C Turngust (?), b1859, Helensborough
Samuel C McDonnald, b1844, Halifax
Nils Jenson, b1853, Christiana (?)
Anton Carlson, b1860 Christiana (?)
Lawrence Cahill , b1853, Wexford
Robert Smith, b1859 Shetland
John Oxford, b1859, Jersey
Gustov A Olson, b1861, Drontheim (?)
Otto Olsen, b1862 Christiana(?)
G Heine, b1860 New York
Basiel Smith b1860 Shetland
Thomas A Johnson, b1860 Torquay
Thomas Matthews, b1855, Dublin
John White b1858 Kirkudbright
John Ollason,b1836 Lerwick
Alfred Elleston, b1847, Estee, Sweden
Christopher Strafford, 1832, Leers
William Dixon 1855, Greenock
William Costain, 1862, Isle of Man
John J Moffat, b1857 Dublin
Hugh Cook, b1841, Melbourne
John James Canning, b1857, Londonderry
John Welsh, b1832, Westport
John Harrington, b1853, Liverpool
Charles Francis, b1862, Carnarvon
James Smith, b1854, Liverpool
Joseph White, b1858 Portland
Charles Baker, b1849, Jersey
Treat Mohn, b1850, Bergen, Norway
Frantz Enstrup Moller, b1865, Copenhagen
Edward Gregson, b1866, Liverpool
William Williams, 1863, Llanfair
John McNeil, b1845, Tobermory
Donald Rolf/Rofs/Rols/Profs? b1838 Inverness
Peter Smith, b 1829, Edinburgh
John McFarlane, b1839/1849, Paisley
E McFarlane, b1853 Glasgow
Christopher McCormick, 1849, Irvine
William Slater, b1836 Stromness
James Kydd, b1834 Greenock
Nicholas McMullen (birthplace unknown)
James Finnigan (birthplace unknown)
William Saunders (birth place unknown)
William Morgan b1833, Halifax
J Mikkelson, b1849 Denmark
William Clark, b1849, Aberdeen
William Mitchell, b1849, Saltcoats
Thomas Dale ,b1848, Irvine
Andrew McDougall, b1842, Stornoway
Charles Bird, cook, 1824, Inverness
Charles Anderson, , b1852 Montrose
Charles Whish, b1852, Glasgow
Charles Poyser(??), b 1847, Antrim
Lachlan M Eacherm 1856, Hull
Thomas Lewis, b1848, Anglesey
Thoms Hes, b1853, Penby
Henry Johnson, b1853, Boston
Andrew Jackson, b1853, (Unknown birthplace)
Hugh McKinnon, b1824, Argyll
Donald McKay, b1852 Argyll
I'm also interested in hearing from anyone who may be connected to these mariner's:
William Wilson, b1845 Glasgow
Allan McLean, b1845 Glasgow
Captain Charles McDonald, b1860, Dundee
And particularly anyone with a John Frederick Dunn(e) in their line, born Bristol c1845 - who ended up in Sydney, Australia.
Hope some of that is of use to someone.
Regards
Ann
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Hi I have a charles Mcdonald, i have found his marriage cert and calculated his birth to be approx 1867, what was ur charles mcdonald's wifes name if any?
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Hi Sarah,
I'm sorry, I don't know his wife's name. All I know is, he started out as an apprentice on the merchant vessels 1875 (when he was 15/16 - which could make your Charles too young), and eventually became a Captain/Master in the Merchant service. He he was still alive c1927 and was living in Glasgow, possibly Paisley.
Earlier research on this man seems to indicate he was actually born in Dundee, but spent some of his childhood in Argyllshire and Skye. I believe his mother was called Catherine (b1837, Scoonie [?] Perthshire), and his father was an Alexander McDonald (b 1836, Abertone, Banffshire) who at one point worked for the Glengilt Distillery, and at another was an Inland Revenue Officer. One of his grandfathers was also a farmer in Craigellachie, Morayshire. He had several siblings, including John, Catherine, Jane, William, Robert and Archibald.
In the 1861 census, the family lived at 13 Malthouse Close, Dundee.
But by 1871, the family had moved to Lochgilphead/Knapdale, and were living in a cottage.
Hope that's enough information to go on.
Ann
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Unfortunately, my mariner gg grandfather Frederick Nugent de Belin b.1846 Guildford, is not one of those mentioned, but I was wondering how did you find the crew agreements for those mariners mentioned?
I have found my gg grandfather as a crew member of a number of ships between Sydney and the Panama in the 1860's/1870's, and although I have all his "land history" in England and Australia, if I could find anything else about his maritime history it would be great.
Les
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Morning Les ;D
They were all merchant mariners on merchant vessels. Was he a merchant seaman? Was he on British vessels? Have you tried Newfoundland? Or the maritime archive here?
Have you got the vessels official numbers (ON's)? If you have, put them in here
http://www.mun.ca/mha/holdings/searchcombinedcrews.php
and it'll tell you whether they have the agreements, or where they are.
If you haven't got the ON's, don't panic. You can often trace them online - here are a few places I know of to help you locate them by name:
http://www.pro.rcip-chin.gc.ca/bd-dl/nav-ship-eng.jsp
http://www.crewlist.org.uk/data/rocrewlists.html
http://www.findmypast.co.uk/clip-crew-lists-search-start.action?ic=Y
And have you tried putting his name into Find my past?
I'd also try putting the ships names into Google and seeing what it comes up with.
(Is anyone else having trouble with the textbox on this thing at the moment - keeps jumping about all over the place >:()
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Couldn't get this into the last post cos it was playing silly beggers.
I'd also check each known vessel in ship wreck's lists, google the name and put the the word wreck or such like in the search box - you never know, it's like a ships graveyard down there. And try wreck and dive sites too.
http://oceans1.customer.netspace.net.au/international-wrecks.html
http://www.plimsoll.org/WrecksAndAccidents/Investigations/WhatHappensInUK/Procedure.asp
And you can often find out a lot about the ships themselves from the ship building records
http://www.nas.gov.uk/guides/shipbuilding.asp
And I'd also try the newspaper archives - the British library archive is online, but I'm having trouble with the text box again now so can't post the link! )
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I have a Captain Charles McDonald born 1859 in Dundee
Attained his masters ticket Liverpool 1884 certificate number 08462. Voyages recorded between 1884 and 1889.
I don't know if this is your man. What do you think?
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Very possible. PM me with any further details you have. Is he a relative of yours?
Regards Ann
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Thanks very much for those links Ann - I will certainly try them.
These are arrival dates of my gg grandfather in Sydney, the ships, and his postion. I don't know what happened in 1878. I presume being an Able Seman is a demotion from an Officer?
16/10/1865 - "General Caulfield" - Apprentice
9/4/1866 - "General Caulfield" - Apprentice
2/1/1868 - "Kaikoura" - 4th Mate
27/4/1868 - "Kaikoura" - 4th Officer
24/8/1868 - "Kaikoura" - 4th Officer
28/12/1868 - "Kaikoura" - 4th Officer
25/9/1878 - "Garonne" - Able Seaman
I have previoulsy searched the Internet for these vessels, and have found all their details (size, routes, fate, etc), and also have pictures of them. I have also checked the British papers and have details and/or advertisements of the actual voyages. So, I am pretty well covered there, but hopefully some of your links might get me a "little more" on him.
Thanks again
Les
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To be honest, I wouldn't see it as a demotion. I think they took work where they could get it. Perhaps that ship happened to be going where he wanted to get to, and it was fully staffed - but there's always room for another AB.
Having said that, you seem to have a huge gap of about 10 years between the Kalkoura and the Garonne. Was he injured and out of work for a while, perhaps? Or did he stay ashore somewhere for some time and then go back - and as he'd been out of it so long, he could only get work as an AB?
It might be worth trying to locate his whereabouts in between times.
Ann
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Ann - will reply by PM as I think I'm getting too far away from your original topic with my own inquiries :-[
Les
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Ann, I'm trying to find some information on my great great grandfather, David Drever Slater (b. Kirkwall abt 1833). He was a mariner and apparently died a master. But I can't find where, when or how he died. He married in Wales in 1859, but apparently not considered a Welsh Mariner, on their website anyway. Any clues on where I can start?
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Hi,
I'm no expert, and tracking down mariners is notoriosly difficult. However, I know from my own experience that, if he died a Master, then you're in luck, he should be in the master's registers at the Guildhall library in London. This will probably either mean going there yourself, or calling them and perhaps asking them to look him up on your behalf. I'd recommend the former if possible - a photo is no substitute actually seeing their names in the dusty ledgers!
From there you can order copies of his certificates, which should give you a clear history of his maritime career, including his last known vessel. You can then investigate the other vessels listed and create a picture of his travels over the years.
The names of many of those who became Masters have been indexed after 1859 and you can access them on line - but, typically, they're still in the process of indexing 'S'. ::)
http://www.history.ac.uk/gh/capintro.htm
Newspaper archives are also a fantastic source.
A search of Masters on Mystic Seaport throws up a few possibilities if you fancy trawling through
http://library.mysticseaport.org/initiative/MSearchIndex.cfm
I'll keep thinking, hope that helps in the meantime.
Ann
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Lloyds Captains Registers are now housed in the London Metropolitan Archives
http://search.lma.gov.uk/opac_lma/index.htm
Just type" Captains Register" into the search.
I am not sure how much LMA charge for copies of these register entries, you would have to ask.
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I searched the National Archives and found a site for mariners that had limited BMD info but still a lot. I was able to locate a David Sclater that had died at Sea in 1874 (not a master, though). you can get greater detail if you log in and pay for it. I found that by NOT logging in I was able to get a full date that I could not see otherwise. But full details of the event and to view the log cost money.
I would love to visit places in Britain to get information, but I'm in Portland, Oregon USA, about 8 time zones away. Thank you for all the great leads. I check them all out and kept "drilling down" until I found something I could search by name. I also found a site where could search by a person's name and it brought up all kinds of arcane information, not of which was not pertinent to me but perhaps might be to others. I'll try to re-enact my stumble to the site and post it. I've put in what I think is the link to the records archive for mariners. I'll try it out myself in a few minutes and correct it as appropriate.
Thanks again.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATID=1629&CATLN=3&accessmethod=5
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My GGG Grandad was a mariner on whaling ships in the Baltic between c 1816 and 1851. His name was Noah Dobson and lived in Hull. Unfortunately I can't find any BMD certificates for him but I am in possession of some amazing poetry he wrote whilst working on the ship. I too am at a brick wall with him as I can't find parents for him due to having no certificates for him. He did, however, marry Juliana Bennison. Any info would be gratefully received!
Kind Regards
Nicki
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My missing mariner is Thomas Davis born c1800 and died before 1841, as did his wife Sophia nee Crane. Thomas left five sons who all refer to their father as either mariner or master mariner. On the baptism cert of two of the sons in 1846 [although they were born in the 1830s] 'parents Thomas and Sophia Davis, both deceased'.
The family all lived in and around Stepney and the boys mostly give their place of birth as Kentish Town. I am not familiar with research into mariners and wonder where the best place to start is. Are there any online resources for the period before 1841 or is a question of a visit somewhere. Any help gratefully accepted. BVC
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Shep318 - I have details for you regarding David Drever Sclater. He was a Master Mariner and Captained two Cardiff registered vessels - The Telemaco and The Eroe, both 1866/7. I have only just found this information myself - David Sclater was my gt-gt-grandmother's first husband. As his widow, she remarried my gt-gt-grandfather George Davison. I will try and research crew agreements from Cardiff records. He is listed in some as David Selater and also as Slater and Schlater.
You mentioned he was lost at sea - I have his death at 1874 but no record of how he died.
Have you any more information? I'd be interested to know which of David Sclater and Harriet Sleep's children you are decended from - we are half-relatives, if that makes sense! Kind regards.
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Apologies for re-opening such an old thread, but I've only just found it. My ancestor, James Finigan (or Finnigan, the spelling is somewhat fluid), was a mariner from Liverpool, born in 1846 (or thereabouts). I suspect he may well be the James Finnigan on the list in the first post of this thread. Ann, I don't suppose you have any more information on the ship, or James himself, do you? James disappears some time after the 1881 census, as does his wife, Elizabeth. His children, Thomas and Charlotte, were raised in two different orphanages, one in Liverpool and the other in Belfast. I've never been able to work out why, or what actually happened to James and Elizabeth. There are no death or burial records that seem to fit. I thought perhaps he had died at sea, but have so far been unable to find evidence for that either.
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orinoco
Just noticed this old thread, and checked the website listed here for Mystic Seaport; it didn't work.
But I found a working phone number for their research library in the U S 860-572-5367, but they prefer
e mails. collections[at]mysticseaport.org
it's the G W Blunt White Library in Mystic, Connecticut, USA
they are only opened
Wednesday 2-5
Thursday 10-5
Friday 10-3
Moderator Comment: e-mail edited, to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please replace [at] with @
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Orinocho, can you make two more posts so I can PM you? I think I may be able to help.
Cefnrider, Rhondagirl, BVC and Shep318 - I'm so sorry for not replying to you all, but for some reason I was not notified of your posts. It's a some time ago now since you all posted, I hope you've managed to get further in your research. If not, please post again as there are plenty here who can help.
Regards Ann
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Ok, here's one post
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And another
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Ok, I'll PM you. ;D
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Hello
Hoping you can help me.
I have two of my master mariners showing on the Gulidford site (both Osburn's) who both have "no voyages listed".
Does this mean my wall starts here?
I also have another master mariner "missing" (William Osburn b. Knottingly 1854) and cannot find any of them on any of the links.
Am I missing something or is it looking unlikely I'll find records?
Many thanks in advance.
Jo
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Hi Jo,
I'm no expert in these matters, but here's what I'd do.
I have two of my master mariners showing on the Gulidford site (both Osburn's) who both have "no voyages listed".
Does this mean my wall starts here?
Have you applied for their Master's certificates? They may not tell you details of their voyages, but may still contain useful information (if nothing else, you should see their signatures).
http://www.nmm.ac.uk/researchers/library/research-guides/the-merchant-navy/tracing-people-master-mariners-mates-engineers
Also, have you tried the crew lists at FindMyPast? I see they've updated them in the last week or so, you may be lucky (I was!).
Re your missing mariner (from the link above)
"Many mariners declare themselves as masters on census forms and other official records such as marriage or birth certificates without officially holding qualifications."
How do you know your William was a Master? What proof do you have?
Another avenue to check is the newspapers - have you tried that? If they ever ended up in strife, say, or in a fight (not unusual in such circles) they may appear.
Regards,
Ann
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Hi Ann
Thank you for your input. I have looked at my William again and it would seem the only place that "Master Mariner" was recorded was on his daughters (bigamous) mariage cerrtificate which I am now surmising may have been for "show" on her part as William was deceased by this time.
On her legitimate mariage he was described as Captain of a Tug and Steam Tug Captain on her birth certificate.
He is described as a Tug Boat Captain on his own death certificate and Master Tugman on his wifes.
He is recorded on the censii as follows:
1871 - Mariner
1881 - Merchant Seaman
1891 - Master Crewman on "The Shah"
1901 - Master person in charge of vessel, again on "The Shah"
Although a seaman all his life it looks like maybe he wasnt qualified!!
Thanks again
Jo
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Maybe he was just qualified in a different area - but his daughter just didn't know how to describe it properly! ;D Again, I'm no expert in such matters, but it sounds like he may have gone away to sea early in his career (where he's described as a mariner/merchant seaman), then later stayed closer to shore, operating the local tugboats, which I understand were used in some ports to guide ships in to shore via the sometimes treacherous waterways. I'm pretty sure they used them in may ports around the country and elewhere, places like Cobh/Cork and such like.
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So do you think it would be possible to gain some "paperwork" from his possible early career (sorry fo so many questions - I have to ask, ask, ask until I know I'm sure of what I am doing)?
He definitely was closer to home when he was the tug boat captain and operated it in the Hull / Goole area.
Oh, for a time machine!!
Jo xx
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Jo
I can find a tug called SHAH official number 68529 She was register in London in 1874 but was registered at Goole from 1878 until 1914 when she was renamed DALESTHORPE. She was removed from the British register in 1928 Would these facts fit in with your other research?
If they do then she has some crew agreements in Newfoundland which may give you some info.
http://www.mun.ca/mha/holdings/viewcombinedcrews.php?Official_No=68529
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So do you think it would be possible to gain some "paperwork" from his possible early career (sorry fo so many questions - I have to ask, ask, ask until I know I'm sure of what I am doing)?
He definitely was closer to home when he was the tug boat captain and operated it in the Hull / Goole area.
Oh, for a time machine!!
Jo xx
The difficulty with mariners, as you've already found, is finding out the names of the vessels they were on. You can be lucky, and their names can pop up in newspaper articles, or police reports (if they were caught up in any wrongdoing, for instance) associated with a ship, and which can lead you elsewhere. Or, most often, it can be a very long, laborious, and expensive process - as I can testify myself with several elusive mariners in the family! But that doesn't mean it can't be done - in my experience you just have to keep chipping away -be patient, vigilant, and keep searching for clues, then follow them up. For instance, FindMyPast has just added new crew lists to their records, so I've just managed to find a bit more out about a couple of my lot, after such a long wait, which I'm delighted about.
When he appears in the census, where was he based? This will (probably) give you your first clue as to which port he was in - maybe there's a list somewhere of tugs that were based in that port at the local maritime archive? If he was working locally, he may appear in local newspapers, which are unlikely to be available online, but may be available through the local library.
Hope this helps,
Ann
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Hi, don't know if this is the right place to post this - my first time on the forum.
My wife's gg grandfather, WILLIAM JOSEPH LANGRISH, born 1841 in Tunbridge Wells. It is said he was lost at sea, but we can't find any records to prove this. We live in country New South Wales, and so are unable to search major archives other than those that are online.
He arrived in Sydney on ship “Wooloomooloo” from London as Ordinary Seaman 26/10/1861 (Languish?)
Survived wreck of HMS Orpheus in Auckland Harbour 7/2/1863. Was he press-ganged? Survivors were either transferred to other ships or sent back to UK for the Inquiry.
Arrived Sydney from Otaga NZ on ship “Ashburton” as A.B. 28/1/1864 - no longer in the RN?
Married at St. Peters C. of E., Cooks River Rd. St. Peters, Sydney on 16/11/1866 to : Eliza Williams.
Son, William Joseph Langrish (2nd) born 16/1/1868 and wife Eliza re-married 12/6/1871, so WJ (1st) was lost at sea between these dates, although, his death or being missing may not have been notified before his son was born, so maybe before Jan. 1868
Any help in finding maritime records would be greatly appreciated.
Mickcee
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Hi Mickcee,
I'd start a new thread with this one if I were you, to get the best response possible. Keep it in this section, under special/occupation interests though.
In the mean time, what have you tried so far - any of the suggestions already in this thread?
Regards
Ann
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Hi Ann
Thanks for your advice re new posting - will do. I have tried numerous sites including Find My Past and Ancestry .com, also IGI without success. Unfortunately, records seem unavailable unless you know what ship the sailor was on. As Australia was still a British colony, I have hopes that there will be something over there to explain WJ's disappearance.
Thanks again
Mickcee
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Thank you so much for publishing this crew list, it's given me some hope that I can find my elusive g.grandfather -
J. Mikkelson b.1849 Denmark
Is it possible to research this entry further please? Thank you.
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Hi Tycki,
If you can post more info on your J.Mikkelson I'll take a look in Denmark for you.
Ian
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Hi Ian,
My only information -
Jens or James Mikkelsen (note 'sen' not 'son')
Appears on the 1881 Census residing in Liverpool b. 1850 in Denmark and stating that he is a British Citizen.
I have details of his first marriage to Elizabeth Baxter in the UK, and am aware that he 'married' my g.grandmother after the death of his infant daughter and wife. Although they had 4 daughters, I cannot find any marriage record.
Since his 1st marriage record states he's a Mariner (son of Jens Mikkelsen) I was hoping to find details of which ship, accurate birthdate and maybe information of his origins.
Thank you for your kind offer to assist.
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What were the names of his second wife and children?
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Don't worry about them, it's his origins I'm trying to find. I really don't want to waste your time looking for his descendants, as they're unlikely to be recorded in Denmark.
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Maybe so, but it might help anyway. The names of the children could be beneficial as he may have used his mother's and siblings' names etc. I would like to find them in the censuses. Did James die in 1897?
Ian
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Ah I see where you're going.
There is an unverified possibility that his mother was called Joanna Sorensdatter (b1819) .... but I'm really not sure of the source or accuracy.
The 1881 Census is a catalogue of errors, giving the surname as Mickkelson.
The child from his first marriage was named Johanna Elizabeth (maybe after Jen's mother and her own mother?), wrongly recorded in the 1881 Census as Jonathan at Nergenia Street, Liverpool...it should be Victoria Street.
His other 4 daughters were Elsie, Dorothy, Lilian and Edith.
Yes, he died in 1897.
Hope this helps. Thank you.
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What was his 2nd wife's name?
Also his children's birth years please.
Ian
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wrongly recorded in the 1881 Census as Jonathan at Nergenia Street, Liverpool...it should be Victoria Street.
No they were at 7 Virginia Street per the 1881 census. Confirmed by his entry in 1881 Gore's Directory. And the child is correctly recorded as Johannah.
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What was his 2nd wife's name?
Also his children's birth years please.
Ian
I've found them in 1901.
No worries
Ian
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Hi ShaunJ,
My mistake, yes Virginia not Victoria.
Do you have a link for Gore's Directory (assuming it is accessible?) specifically pre 1897 as Jens' occupation on his death certificate was cab driver.
Thank you.
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He's not in my 1894 Liverpool directory.
I see that James was a cab driver or car driver on each of the baptisms of Edith, Elsie and Lilian 1890-1895, and a greengrocer on Johanna's baptism record.
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Am I looking for a needle in a haystack?