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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Suffolk => Topic started by: Jacq on Sunday 17 January 10 23:34 GMT (UK)
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I'd be very grateful to find a birth/baptism of William Thomas Cuthbert from Ipswich, allegedly born 13 March 1836. Family stories have it that he was made an orphan at an early age and brought up by an older brother. I have been unable to identify him in the 1841 and 1851 censuses.
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The only one I can find on Familysearch.org (nothing on FreeREG) born in 1836 is, unfortunately, a submitted record and only states born approx 1836 Hacheston, Suffolk. The other 3 William Cuthberts were:
1. Baptised 18 May 1834 Letheringham, Suffolk, England, parents Thomas and Hannah Cuthbert.
2. Born 4 Aug 1834 - name William George so not the right person.
3. Baptised 19 Mar 1837 Union House, Cosford, Suffolk, England, mother Mary Cuthbert.
Do you have him on the 1861 or later census? If so that may show his birthplace. It seems Hacheston is near to Woodbridge/Framlingham area.
Lizzie
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Thanks very much for that, Lizzie. I had found all those others, but it's so indefinite! I found him on the 1861 census. He married Jane Mazella Hoare 25 Dec 1859 at Horton Kirkby in Kent. The 1861 census (for Dartford, Kent) gives his birth as Ipswich. He emigrated to New Zealand in 1865, so he's on no more censuses after 1861.
Thanks again for your help.
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Do you have the marriage cert and if so what does it give for Williams fathers name?
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No, I don't have the marriage cert. That was information someone passed on to me.
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I think it would be best to get the marriage cert, hopefully showing fathers names and occupation, to be sure you are tracking the right family.
William Thomas Cuthbert
Jane Angella Hoare
1859
Dec qtr.
Dartford
Kent
Vol. 2a
Page: 399
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You are so in luck, in one way, the good news is, is that Horton Kirby parish registers are online at City Ark
http://cityark.medway.gov.uk/
Click on parish registers down the side and then scroll down to Horton Kirby. The Cuthbert marriage is on image 25.
The bad news is the space for Williams father is blank. :'( :'(
Do New Zealand death certs provide parental details? if so maybe you could go down that route.
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Thanks, Sue. Yes it does look like I may have to get his marriage or death cert. The name Angella was a mistranscription, she was actually Jane Mazella.
NZ death certs are absolutely wonderful. They not only name the date, place and cause of death, as British ones do, but also the name of parents, maiden name of mother, occupation of father, when and where buried, where born and how long they have lived in NZ, when married, age at marriage, to whom married, age of widow, number of children still living and their gender and ages!
So I think I might send for his death certificate!
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Hi, I am the Great Great Granddaughter of William Thomas Cuthbert. I have the marriage certificate to Jane and his death certificate . He was 23 years old when he married Jane Mazella Hoare on 25 Dec. 1859 at Horton Kirby, Kent. His occupation was Bricklayer and his father's name is shown as Cuthbert, Christian name unknown. So that doesn't help much! I have quite a bit of information on him and Jane and their family in NZ and also a copy of a photo of William.
That was interesting to hear that you heard he was an orphan as the only possible person I could find in the census for him in 1841 was at Cosford Union House in Suffolk and his age is shown as 7 instead of the 5 year old he should be, but I am wondering whether his age was increased so that he could stay at the workhouse with his older brother James, (9), as they were kept separately from age 7 and up. There is also a Mary Ann Cuthbert aged 15 at the workhouse.
On the 1851 census I found a William Cuthbert aged 16 b. 1834-35 in Ipswich with father Charles and mother Catherine, Charles was a Slater and William was an assistant Slater, but I don't think this is him as he would know the name of his father when he lived at home aged 16.
He moved around a lot with bricklaying and apparently made bridges.
How are you connected to William Thomas Cuthbert? I would be happy to share the info. I have.
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Thank you for replying. I'm actually doing this family research for my son-in-law who is a gt gt gt grandson of William Thomas Cuthbert.
There were actually four Cuthbert children in Cosford Workhouse in the 1841 census; Mary Ann aged 15, James aged 9, Charlotte aged 7 and William also given as 7. They may or may not have been related to each other. In 1851 I believe William is the one living with Charles and Catherine. I know it says he's their son, but I think he may have been Charles' brother. Charles would only have been 17 when William was born. I have no proof of this, of course. Charles and the Mary Ann Cuthbert (from the previous census) were brother and sister. Their parents were Charles Cuthbert and Susanna nee Cook. Charles was baptised in Cosford Workhouse 11 Aug 1819. Mary Ann was baptised 26 Nov 1826 at St.Clement's Church, Ispwich.
So...no further forward really!
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Thanks for the reply. Yes, he is proving a hard man to find the roots of. My gut feeling is he is the one in the Cosford home and maybe the William baptised there in 1837. I think we need to try and get the baptism details to rule him out. I don't think he is the son showing with Charles as the census was taken after his birthday that year, so he would be 15 not 16, although maybe he wasn't sure what year he was born. I think we need to try and get info on James, Mary Ann and Charlotte, who were in the home with him, and this might lead us to more info.
You said you heard he lived with an older brother, do you know any more on his background before he married Jane? I think he probably met Jane through her brothers Charles and George, as they worked in the brickfields in Darfield and Charles appears to have also worked as a bricklayers labourer.
I am descended from Alice Jane Cuthbert, through Violdet Mildred Carruthers. What line does your son-in-law come down from?
I have quite a bit of info. on the Hoare family, if you want it and also did you find the 2 children William and Jane had in the UK before they came to NZ that died over there? Their names were William and Alice and no doubt you have Beatrice who died soon after their arrival in NZ.
If I find out anything more, I will let you know.
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The William baptised in the Cosford Workhouse was the son of Mary. Don't forget that ages shown in censuses are notoriously wrong!
My son-in-law is descended from Francis James Cuthbert (gt gt grandfather), then Lewis Cuthbert (gt grandfather), then Ada Maude Cuthbert (grandmother).
Yes, I did find the three children who died.
No, I nothing nothing else of William before his marriage. Only what Ada told me about him being raised by his brother.
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Hi "Jacq", "Mystic Manaia" etc,
I am a gt-gt-grandson of William Thomas CUTHBERT and Jane Mazella CUTHBERT née HOARE and have a free website on them which if you haven't seen is at http://www.keithblayney.com/Blayney/Cuthbert.html with a password required for "living" members, obtainable for any family member by contacting me kblayney@ihug.co.nz (rather than in an open forum like this).
Even if you have looked at this before, I have been regularly upgrading the genealogies, family histories and adding photos and appreciate any additions, corrections, photos etc you can contribute. Keith (KTB)
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Hi Keith, I am Lorna W, who recently gave you some more info. on the Carruthers. Still no further finding anything about William Thomas Cuthbert though. If you find anything more about him, I would appreciate hearing of it.
Lorna
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Ah, I wondered if it was you.
I suspect that William Thomas CUTHBERT's mother (?Mary) was a solo mum who named her children after the father (as solo mums do now in NZ) but didn't record his given name for whatever reason (he could have been married, she may have been a prostitute or a mistress in those pre-reliable contraceptive times etc :-[). Clearly Mary was destitute to end up in a workhouse with children and in pre-social welfare times may well have either been trying to supplement her income or hoping the mysterious Mr Cuthbert would make an honest woman of her. All very sad really. :(
Pure genealogical research doesn't make moralistic decisions on the value of uncovering the truth >:( but this looks like it will be a dead end despite accessing any further records (although court records for imposing maintenance have uncovered missing links in other lines). William himself probably had no interest in finding who his (irresponsible) father was :-X.
Cheers,
Keith
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Hi Keith, I think I will try and get hold of a transcript of that baptism entry for William Cuthbert in the Cosford workhouse in 1837 and see if it could be him, as as far as I am aware, no one has done this. If we could find brother James Cuthbert, this could give us some clues too. I really feel this is the older brother he lived with as he named a son James and it doesn't appear to have come from Jean Hoare's family.
Lurline (nee Carruthers) has just wondering if you would be interested in getting a Cuthbert reunion together in March 2015 to commemorate 150 years since the Cuthberts arrived in NZ. She went to a 100 year one in 1965. Sher said it was held on George and Mavis Morley's farm at Pukeoware. I would be interested in going to a reunion, if it could be organised. Not sure how we could go about informing everyone though.
Lorna
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Sounds good, plenty of time to plan it.
18th March 2015 is a Wednesday so Sat 21st would be most sensible. Venue could be a farm or a hall (probably better for photo displays, catering, bad weather, family photos etc).
My mum (Muriel Blayney nee Potter, daughter of Arlie Potter nee Carruthers, in turn daughter of Alice Jane CUTHBERT) knows many of the older Cuthberts and Carruthers and between her phone and address book, Facebook contacts, e-mails etc we could probably cover at least one person per "branch" who could then be responsible for passing on the invitations to members of their respective families.
If you and Lurline think about it, we could design a nice "pre-invite" document to send around for people to reply to giving an "expression of Interest" to see if it could be a goer and how big a venue and what sort of catering would be needed.
Keith
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Hi I am a Granddaugther of Mavis Morley. The Pukeowhare Hall is right near Uncle Lance Morley big enough for your Reunion. I hope you keep posting if you get any futher on this family line. Thanks
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Hi,
Noting the mention of the Hoare surname with a Kent connection, I’m wondering if any of you have a connection to my wife’s Hoare line, her Hoare ancestors are:
John Hoare & Sarah Tranter who married in 1814 at St Alphage, Greenwich, 8 children baptised 1818 to 1832 at Greenwich and Deptford.
Robert James Hoare & Elizabeth Durling, 9 children bap 1852 to 1869 at Greenwich and Lewisham.
Isaac Hoare (1st marriage) & Sarah Horn, 6 children bap 1883 to 1892 at Greenwich.
Isaac Hoare (2nd marriage) & Augusta Vose, 5 children bap 1898 to 1911 at Plumstead and Woolwich.
Isaac & Augusta are my wife’s paternal grandparents, my wife and her siblings were born in Woolwich.
I have no idea where John came from prior to his marriage to Sarah Tranter but since all the above locations were in what was then Kent, I thought I'd see if anyone knows of a link to Jane Mazella Hoare.
Regards.
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Hi. Regarding your query about your Hoare family, sorry but I cannot find any connection between them and my Hoare family. I have the printout of your Robert james and Elizabeth Hoarey and 7 family members on the 1881 UK census, but I presume you also have all that information already.
Good luck with your research.
Lorna Wuthrich
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Hello to GreenKiwi, Thank you for your message. Sorry for the slow reply, but I have been away on holiday for 6 weeks. Are you able to email me at **** with your family info. so I know which of the Cuthbert family you are descended from. Email contact will also make it easier for me to keep in touch with you regarding the proposed 2014 Cuthbert family reunion.
Lorna Wuthrich
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Hi Lorna,
Thanks for checking, yes thanks I do have the 1881 census entry for Robert and Elizabeth.
Regards