RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Northamptonshire => Topic started by: stevetewk65 on Sunday 17 January 10 15:52 GMT (UK)
-
Hi all,
New here, apologies if I have posted in wrong place.
Can anyone possibly shed any light on this? My ancestor Thomas Pearsall was in the Regiment. I know he was in India in 1897-98 as he is listed in the Tirah Campaign medal list. In 1901 he was also in India as his daughter was born there/then. Yet in June 1898 he married Alice Jane Humber at East Grinstead Registry Office in Sussex. I wonder - What opportunity did he have to meet her? Did the Regiment return there awhile in '98? Must he have met her years before? Any pointers would be much appreciated.
Thanks
-
Hi stevetewk65
Welcome to Rootschat. :)
It might be best to have this post on the Armed Forces board.
I can link for you until Scrimmers moves it for you.
Sandy
-
Thanks Sandy - it was a toss up if it was 'military' or Northampton' :)
-
A regiment comprised two battalions and a depot. The depot was in Northampton; while the 1st Battalion was in India until 1910. I don't know the exact movements of the 2nd Battalion but they spent some time in South Africa. Men would start in the depot then be transferred to one of the two battalions. But they could be transferred again later. He must have been in the 1st Bn for the Tirah campaign which finished on 31st January 1898.
The only way that he would be in Essex later in the year was if he was either on furlough; or he was transferred back to the depot; or to the 2nd Bn if they were in the UK at the time. Or he may have been transferred to another regiment. Does the marriage certificate say that he was still in the Northants?
Only by finding if his papers survive in Kew will you know the truth. If you cannot get to Kew Findmypast have scanned all pre-WW1 papers and will be publishing them 'by 2011'. If he served into WW1 his papers will be on Ancestry, else they were destroyed during WW2.
Men did not have a right to furlough. If he had less than say 7 years service (after the age of 18) I would discount that theory. With a less than common name you should check FindMyPast for more BMDs.
Another theory depends upon his age. He should have been over 25 when he married. If so he may have elected to go into the Army Reserve after serving 7-8 years in uniform. Army Reservists were recalled in late 1899 during the Boer War. He may then have spent the last of his 12 years service back in India.
I put this on another forum last week. Conditions for being allowed to marry -
It was from the Kings Regulations of 1912 (amended to 1914), but it would have been similar if not the same in his day. It shows the efforts the army took to ensure soldiers only married 'good' women:
KR 1360 (1912)
Permission to marry will not be granted unless:-
(i) A vacancy exists on the married establishment.
(ii) The CO has satisfied himself as to the woman’s character.
(iii) The soldier, if below the rank of serjeant, has
(a) £5 in the Post Office Savings Bank
(b) 7 years’ service exclusive of boy’s service
(c) Two good conduct badges, or, if a corporal, fulfils the conditions for two good conduct badges.
Ken
-
Hi Ken,
Thanks for the extensive reply, most kind. My man was indeed in the 1st Bat and yes his marriage Cert does state he was still in the regiment at this time. Indeed, he was still serving in 1901 as his children were all born in India where he was a 'colour sergeant.' By 1920 he was a 'retired Captain' although I'm not sure if he saw active service in WW1, would he be too old (43 in 1914). Sounds like I need a visit to Kew!
Cheers
Steve
-
Hi Steve
I edited my reply a few times.
My GF was 43 when he was commissioned Captain/Adjutant in 1915. It sounds as if Thomas was a career soldier so his Other Ranks papers would be with his application for a commission. WW1 Officer records were destoyed in 1940 but there is a supplementary set of papers - mainly correspondence in Kew. My GF's included two copies of his OR service.
You should check the London Gazette for his officer service, plus the National Archives catalogue.
Ken
-
I cannot see anything on the LG.
Ken
-
I cannot see anything on the LG.
Ken
-
Thanks for taking the time, Ken. I've looked at a few WW1 service websites and he doesn't appear. Would 43 be to old to fight? Not too old to be 'involved', surely even if not in the trenches?
I'm still very intrigued how he was in India in 98 yet managed to marry (and meet!) a girl in Sussex in June 98 though (and who's family was from and living in Dorset)!
-
Hello Steve,
Sandy pointed me in your direction.
Do you have the marriage certificate?
If so, what address, etc is given for Alice? She does not appear to have been born in the area. She may be the one born in Mere Reg District, March Qu. 1875
To my knowledge, there was no barracks in the East Grinstead area at the time. The nearest camp was Crowborough (Uckfield Reg District).
As he was still serving in the 1920's, his service record will still be with the MoD.
Hopefully, I have attached what I think is his entry in WO 338, which some-one may be able to interpret. He appears to have been in the Royal Army Ordnance Corps as a Captain.
Phil
-
wow Forester - my chap's name was Thomas Percival Hutchinson Pearsall (TPH Pearsall as in your image) so yes that must be him! As you say, now to interpret it!
Alice was indeed from Mere, her address on the marriage certificate is New Buckhurst, Withyham, Sussex. There is a Buckhurst Estate at Withyham, my presumption has always been that she was a servant there and he/his regiment must have somehow briefly visited!
-
I was just going to say that I looked at the 1891 census and saw that Emma was born in Withyham.
Buckhurst is the seat of Earl De La Warr.
http://www.buckhurstpark.co.uk/
I wonder if there is a connection between the family and the regiment.
Phil
-
Thanks for the link Phil.
Emma? Emma Hewitt was a witness at the marriage - do you mean her?
steve
-
In the 1891 census, there is a sister Emma M(arie), age 7, born Withyham. (March Qu. 1884, East Grinstead)
RG12/2442; Folio 63; Page 1.
The family are at Bramcote, Polesworth, Warwickshire.
Father, Joseph, is a gamekeeper and it looks like they move around a bit.
Emma married 1907, if I've got the right one, so it can't be her.
Emma Hewitt was from Surrey and in 1891 a servant in Groombridge (Withyham Parish)
Phil
-
I think we've gone wrong there somewhere - Emma must be a red herring, she cant be of the same family as dates and names don't fit.
Emma Hewitt fits tho - and is VERY amusing. I have a close friend I've known 25 years who lives in Groombridge! Tiny world!
-
Steve,
In case I've gone off on the wrong track, can you confirm both Thomas and Alice's birth dates and place of birth and their parents if possible, plus any known siblings.
I thought I had the Humber family cracked, but I'm beginning to doubt it now.
I'm also having trouble picking up Thomas's family.
Phil
-
I sure can, thanks Phil!
Thomas was born in April 1871 in Malta (his father was also called Thomas Pearsall and was also in the Northants Regiment). Alice Humber was born January 75 (I believe in Payhembury Devon altho Census calls it Paykembury) Her father was John Humber, but yes he was a gamekeeper and (unless I have the wrong one) certainly wandered about a bit. He was born in Kingston Russell, Dorset, about 1844.
You are very kind taking the time for this, thanks.
Steve
-
Good evening Steve,
That would explain why I couldn't find Thomas's birth registration.
Do you know when Thomas Senior stopped globe-trotting, or where they settled?
I do have the right Alice Humber then. If you want any census info on the family, John's re-marriage etc, let me know.
Alice had a sister Emma according to the 1891 census, who was born at Withyham (as my earlier post). Originally I thought she may have been the witness, but turned out not to be.
I could only find one London Gazette entry for Thomas, which contains info you already have:
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/32103/supplements/10399
My thinking is that Thomas and Alice met during the Humber family travels. If you know where and when Thomas was in the UK, the Humbers are fairly traceable (up to 1911 certainly).
Phil
-
Hi Phil,
I know very little about Thomas sr other than he was in Malta in 71 and when jr married in 1898 he is shown as a 'clerk', so one must presume he had left the army by this time, but then as he would have to be at least mid-50's (I don't know his birth date) I guess that is obvious.
John's re-marraige?! Now that IS a tease! I have Emma still being around in 1901 but gone in 1911, I had no idea he re-married! To date, I have only looked at his household in 81 and 'followed' him by way of his name and location until 1911. So any census info would be great, thanks.
I still don't see that Alice had a sister Emma though, she isn't mentioned in 81 - are you sure?
And again! Thanks for the TPH Gazette link. So if he retired in 1920, does that mean he was active in WW1? Also, Royal Army Ord....um....part of Northants still or has he changed?!
Your continuing interest and help is incredible and very much appreciated, thank you.
Steve
-
The P/ pre-fix denotes that his file (at least his officers papers and probably all of them) were not transferred over to the National Archives with those for men discharged prior to 1921. This is mostly due to later post-WW1 service. Thus the MOD should still hold his papers. These can be accessed only by proven next-of-kin/descendants :
See:
http://www.veterans-uk.info/service_records/army.html
A couple London Gazette entries (I see Phil has given you the first one):
LG 28-10-1920
War Office,
28th October, 1920.
REGULAR FORCES.
ROYAL ARMY ORDNANCE CORPS.
A.C.O. & Capt. T. P. H. Pearsall retires on retired pay. 29th Oct. 1920.
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/32103/supplements/10399
REGULAR ARMY RESERVE OF OFFICERS.
ROYAL ARMY ORDNANCE CORPS.
The undermentioned, having attained the age limit of liability to recall, cease to belong to the Bes. of Off.: —
O.E.O., 3rd Cl., & Capt. T. P. H. Pearsall. 14th Mar. 1926.
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/33173/pages/3969
Steve.
-
A Col Sgt I Pearsall appears in a group of photographs taken of the 1st Battalion in Secunderabad in November 1896.
He appears in a picture of the Colour sergeants (part of "I" Company) - attached.
He also appears in a picture of the Colour Party (Regiment Flag bearers) along with L/Sgt S J Pearsall and Cpl F W Pearsall !!
A Sergeant P Pearsall appears in a "Sergeants Mess" group, along with L/Sgt S J Pearsall again.
Col. Sgt. P Pearsall appears then in an "I" Company group, and S Pearsall again appears in an "A" Company group.
Whilst they seem to be in confusion over initials, there were only 3 Pearsalls on the Tirah medal roll (2685 S J Pearsall, No. 3680 F W Pearsall and 2275 T P Pearsall) so I strongly suspect the "I" Pearsall and the "P" Pearsall are both Thomas.
T P H Pearsall's number of 2275 would date to about mid-1887, I think, but I'll have a further check.
Steve.
-
Wow Steve!! thanks for both posts.
Not sure where you got 2275 from but I DO have that number for him on his daughters birth certificate!
Steve
-
From here:
http://www.northeastmedals.co.uk/india_1895_rolls/northamptonshire_regiment_3.htm
Very handy....
Do you know if the other two Pearsalls were related to him ?
Steve.
-
Another one answers Sandy's call !!!!
Emma was not born untill 1884, therefore first appears on the 1891 census.
1901 she is living with John's second wife, Harriett Craddock (widowed by now) in Aston.
RG13/2857; Folio 152; Page 16.
I can't see her in 1911, but think the 1907 marriage may be her.
Phil
-
Just for consideration, the Northamptonshire Regiment Flickr site has a man that may be T Pearsall or T Pearson. At the moment it could be either 2275 Col. Sgt. T Pearsall or 2667 Col. Sgt. F. Pearson to my reckoning.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/northampton_museum/3004164769/
Steve.
-
Thanks Steve - i have seen the medal role before but not noticed the 2275 on it.
Dont't know if they are relatives - must be worth a punt though!
-
I've had a double check through the Secunderabad groups and the Sgt T Pearson on the flickr site is shown as Sgt (Orderly Room Corporal) T Pearson and is a different man.
Red Herring, there I'm afraid.
Steve.
-
I think I have now found Thomas Senior in 1901 in Stafford, cashier for the County Council. Born about 1841, wife Elizabeth.
There are numerous children with three christian names, including some born in India.
Names are Ethel, Evelyn, Gertrude and Ivy.
It looks like he was in Stafford in 1888 and onwards, so I should be able to pick him up in 1891.
RG13/2572; Folio 87; Page 8.
Does that look like the right family?
It's too late tonight to fill it out, but I'll pick it up tomorrow, along with John Humber's trail, if no-one else has in the meantime.
Phil
-
Sgt "P" Pearsall from the Sergeants Mess photo - I think he is the same man as the Colour Sergeants line-up.
Steve.
-
Colour Party photo. Family resemblance ??
Steve.
-
And from "I" Company.
There were 8 Companies of approx. 100-150 men in a battalion in this era. The Northamptons had a strange company naming "A", "B", "C", "D", "F", "G", "I" and "K" (normal Company letters were "A" through "H" - the Northamptons had no "E" or "H" Companies.
Steve.
-
The photos are great Steve!! I was up at 5 this morning, had to drive to Redruth so badly need sleep! But def going to study them indepth tomorrow and see if it all adds up!
-
Thats fascinating about Emma, Phil, thanks. I'm a bit muddled now (see above!) but if Emma was indeed born in Withyham in 84 then that places the family in the area and thus how Alice came to be there, but still leaves the confusion how TPHP came to be there when he is meant to be in India - I guess he must have met her years before, before he went to India... hmm
-
There is reference here to a Pearsall who seems to have the Long Service Good Conduct medal with the Northamptons - also known as the 48th (1st Battalion) and 58th (2nd Battalion).
http://www.theoriginalrecord.com/database/search?search=pearsall&start=1000&end=1999&newerthan=19700101&page=6
You have to pay for the detail, though. :(
I only have the WW1 era LSGM list (more stuff to add to my NA list....)
Steve.
-
Hi Phil,
those names seem to fit, his wife was called Elizabeth although i havent been able to find her maiden name and having 3 christian names as TPH did. Also, the regiment did sail to India from Malta so makes sense that other children were born in India. I believe Mildred Agatha M was the second child (between Thomas and the ladies you list). Any mention of sons, i.e. as in the photographs Steve posted?
Steve
-
Here is his commission into the Army Ordnance Corps in 1915:
LG 2-1-1915
ARMY ORDNANCE DEPARTMENT.
The undermentioned Warrant Officers from Army Ordnance Corps to be Assistant Commissaries of Ordnance, with the honorary rank of Lieutenant. Dated 3rd January, 1915: —
Thomas Percival Hutchinson Pearsall.
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/29027/supplements/127
(Gazette search registered name as Peareall)
Note that he is a serving Warrant Officer (highest non-commissioned officer rank) at this time.
Also, LG 20-9-1940
THOMAS PERCIVAL HUTCHINSON PEARSALL, Deceased.
Pursuant to the Trustee Act, 1925, Section 27.
NOTICE is hereby given that all persons having claims against the estate of Thomas Percival Hutchinson Pearsall late of " The Glen ", Woodrow near Chaddesley Corbett, Worcestershire retired Captain who died on the 25th day of July 1940 and whose Will was proved in the Principal Probate Registry on the 9th day of September 1940 by William Percy Hill must send written particulars of such claims to the undersigned Solicitors on or before the 3Oth day of November next after which date the deceased's assets will be distributed having regard only to the claims of which notice shall have then been received.—Dated this 17th day of September 1940.
H. G. IVENS and HILL, 112, Coventry Street, (032) Kidderminster.
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/34949/pages/5607
Steve.
-
The World Tour continues:
He was in Jamaica in 1914.....
http://www.rlc-conductor.info/RollofHonourFiles/ConductorPlayFile.pdf
(PDF file link. He is on Page 21 of 31)
Home page of site:
http://www.rlc-conductor.info/
(part of the Roll of Honour links)
An explanation of AOC Conductors:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conductor_(Army)
Steve.
-
Ok, I'm boring you now:
Memorial inscriptions for Thomas (Senior) and Frederick William who was killed in action during the Tirah Campaign, so Frederick William at least seems to be family:
STAFFORD CEMETERY
Grave E21
Thomas PEARSALL,
Late Warrant Officer, 48th Regt,
And for 12 years Instructor to the
Stafford Volunteers, 1 Oct 1901, 60
Frederick William, s, who was killed
in the Tirah Campaign, 20 Nov 1897, 23
http://www.wishful-thinking.org.uk/genuki/STS/Stafford/MIs.html
The India General Service Medal 1895 Casualty Roll lists:
Corporal, 3680 Frederick William Pearshall (sic), killed in action, 20 November 1897 at Arhanga Pass, gunshot wound to chest.
As a final thought before I too fall asleep - this may be reference of the records the S J Pearsall from the 1st Battalion 1896 pictures:
WO 339/13845 PEARSALL S J, Capt & QM 1890-1922; 1927
He is probably Sidney James Pearsall of the 10th Sherwood Foresters during WW1:
He was MID in 1919, LG 5-6-1919
Pearsall, T./Qr.Mr. & C'apt. Sidney James, 10th Bn., Notts. & Derby. R.
http://www.edinburgh-gazette.co.uk/issues/13453/pages/1843
If he is a brother then the file may have more next of kin details.
Also, Thomas Senior and Frederick may have physical records at the National Archives in series WO97.
Steve.
-
Another one answers Sandy's call !!!!
Phil maybe, but where is that "son" of mine.
Glad Stebie came on board with you all.
Puts me to shame. :(
I know my limitation so carry on with the splendid
information as I learn from it as well.
Sandy
-
I can't remember being "called". ;)
Here is the family arriving back from Jamaica on 31st January 1915.
Per a popular site beginning with "A":
They arrived at Avonmouth on 31-1-1915 from Kingston Jamaica, having travelled 1st Class aboard SS Manzanares (owned by Elders & Fyffes Ltd, and captained by J H Scudamore)
Thomas Pearsall, Lt. HM Forces, age 43, permanently resident in Jamaica, to be resident in England.
Alice Pearsall, wife, age 39, permanently resident in Jamaica, to be resident in England.
Eva Pearsall, child, age 15, permanently resident in Jamaica, to be resident in England.
John Pearsall, child, age 13, permanently resident in Jamaica, to be resident in England.
Kate Pearsall, child, age 7, permanently resident in Jamaica, to be resident in England.
Also on same page, but may not be travelling with the family.
Gladys Blanche, domestic servant, age 24, permanently resident in Jamaica, to be resident in England (probably with the Pearsall's)
John Keating, Military, age 34, permanently resident in Jamaica, to be resident in England.
Steve.
-
Steve,
this is all fantastic, thank you very much.
-
Hi Phil,
Do you have the address of where Emma Hewitt lived in 1891? I can't find her in Sussex..
Steve
-
Incidentally Sidney James Pearsall appears to have been a Yeoman of the Guard after WW1 and was awarded the MBE (and/or OBE) and became a Member of the Royal Victorian Order.
But perhaps that is for another time! We haven't even connected him to the family yet...
http://yeomenoftheguard.com/roll.htm
Steve.
-
Thanks Stebie,
The overseas postings are helping know when and who to look for in the UK.
Steve,
Station Road, Groombridge
Emma Hewitt, servant, single, age 17, General Servant Domestic, born Cobham Surrey.
Head of household is Lawrence Standen, Baker.
RG12/787; Folio 18; Page 6.
Phil
-
Ignore the above on Emma Hewitt, as Steve has actually found a far better bet, on the Buckhurst estate in 1891.
Unfortunately Ancestry have transcribed her as Emma HERRITT.
RG12/787; Folio 11; Page 15
Phil
-
I've had a look at the possible enlistment date for Thomas Pearsall Junior. It's a bit before my period, so my initial estimate wasn't all that close - I have narrowed down the date with the help of a few other service records (I had used Silver War Badge roll dates previously, which were misleading) and the date of enlistment is most likely August 1888.
This would make Thomas 17 years old, which was the minimum age of enlistment (without enlisting as a boy soldier). In theory, he wasn't old enough to serve overseas at that age, however since his father was probably still serving with the 48th in Malta at that point, the proper age of overseas service of 19 was probably irrelevant.
The 48th had been in Malta since 1867, and moved on to India in 1872, eventually returning to Ireland in 1880. I suspect that Thomas probably stayed with his father's battalion until they returned.
Have you attempted to trace the family births and marriage through the overseas Birth, Marriages and Death records.
Steve.
-
Good evening Steve.
yes, the theory that 'jr' joined up while 'sr' was still around certainly sounds very plausible, 1888 certainly sounds a good fit.
No, to be truthful I came across their joint Northamptonshire involvement a long time ago, but it wasn't until my friend moved to the Withyham area very recently (the village where jr's wife lived) that my interest was re-kindled. I hadn't dug much into them before starting this amazing thread.
Steve
-
Frederick William Pearsall's entry in the Tirah Campaign casualty list published in the London Gazette of 5-4-1898.
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/26954/pages/2185
Steve.
-
When Thomas Senior joined his basic service would have been on the old terms of service of 10 years (before "Short Service enlistment" was introduced in 1870 under the Cardwell reforms). There was a possible extension of another 10 years once that had expired.
On the basis that Thomas Senior would have likely enlisted age 18 or 19 (in 1858/59-ish), his service would have been from say 1858 to 1868 or 1878, if extended. On the basis that T P H was born in Malta in 1871 whilst his father was serving, that would likely mean that Thomas Senior had extended his service up to the late 1870s. This was more than likely necessary in any case for a soldier to reach senior NCO status.
This fits with the known dates and places of birth of his known children.
Thomas - born in Malta in 1871.
Frederick - born in ?? in approx. 1874.
Ethel - born in India in approx. 1876.
Evelyn - born in India in approx. 1877.
Gertrude - born in Stafford in approx. 1887
Ivy - born in Stafford in approx. 1889
The article below appeared in the Times of 9-4-1890:
Steve.
-
Back to TPH - he appears in a list of officers mentioned in despatches in the Times of 26-2-1917. Unfortunately, I can't locate the London Gazette entry to see if it places it in any context (e.g. France/UK/elsewhere).
I've also just realised that in my post at the top of the page I stated that Thomas Senior would have been in Malta when Thomas Jnr. enlisted. That is wrong - he would have been in Malta when Jnr. was born. He was actually back in Stafford by 1888, as evidenced by the younger daughters places of birth.
Thus Thomas Jnr. would have probably followed the standard path through the Regimental postings - 4 or 5 months basic training at the Depot, a year or two in the UK and then overseas, either with 2nd battalion (Singapore up to 1892 when returned to UK) or in India with 1st Bn. (from 1892 onwards).
Steve.
-
There is also a Mildred Agatha baptised in Malta whom I assumed must be the eldest daughter? And what about the 3rd Pearsall on the photographs, do we believe Sidney James was another son?
-
I can't prove it conclusively but I think he is. The Yeoman of the Guard site links him to both the Northamptons and the Sherwood Foresters. His date of death is recorded as 21-6-1961.
The BMD records list him as having died in Surrey, aged 88. This would but him as born in 1873 which fits with the ages of the other children, and also with his enlistment a year or so after Thomas.
There is no record of a birth for a Sidney James Pearsall in the BMD records.
London Marriages and Banns record:
Name: Sidney James Pearsall
Age: 26
Estimated birth year: abt 1873
Spouse Name: Amy Eva Johnson
Spouse Age: 22
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 2 Aug 1899
Parish: Saint Ann, Tottenham
County: Middlesex
Borough: Haringey
Father Name: Thomas Pearsall (listed as a Clerk on the page entry)
Spouse Father Name: Peter Johnson
He is additionally listed as a soldier, and as living at 17 Ferndale Road, Stafford.
Of course, coincidences can be wrong!
...but I would be including him in a "draft" family tree....
If he is the Northamptonshire Regiment man then he has also left the 1st Battalion in India and is back in the UK for his marriage....
Steve.
-
That's great. As you say, there are too many coincidences there for him not to belong to my tree! He's worth a pencilling in I think.
-
On the basis that we think the three are brothers, it is very interesting to see them together as the Guards of the Queen's and Regimental colours. Whilst, the officers were the custodians of the Colours, the Colours themselves were sacred objects in the army, the embodiment of the Queen/King and the Regiment on parade, and being their guard was a Regimental honour.
Up until 1881 they were also carried on the battlefield - in fact the 2nd Battalion of the Northamptons (the old 58th of Foot) were the last to carry the Colours into battle - at Laing's Nek during the 1st Boer War. Two officers of the 58th were awarded the VC for protecting the colours there and a Colour Sergeant was awarded the DCM for carrying one of the Colours to safety.
I have to say that I hadn't noticed that all the Colour Party in the photo were Pearsalls until looking at them for this topic. It must have been a VERY unusual occasion - especially considering that two of the three were not in fact Colour Sergeants whom would normally be afforded the role.
Steve.
-
Steve,
Keep sending those facts - am off out to see my 75 year old father later, he is going to love the photos!
cheers
Steve
-
Assuming that Lance-Sergeant S Pearsall of the 1st Northamptons in 1896 = S J Pearsall of the Sherwood Foresters = Sidney James Pearsall Yeoman of the Guard, here are my notes on him:
Sidney James Pearsall
- Born approx. 1873.
- Probably served in the Northamptonshire Regiment from 1890, latterly as L/Sgt. (1896) and Quartermaster-Sergeant.
- Enlisted approx. 1890
- L/Sgt. in "A" Company in 1896 Secunderabad photos.
- Entitled to the India General Service Medal with three Clasps for Tirah 1897-98, Samana 1897 & Punjab Frontier 1897-98.
- Does not appear in battalion casualty list for the Tirah Campaign, late 1897.
- Appointed Quartermaster & Honorary Lt. with 10th Bn. Sherwood Foresters, date ??. (Possibly in 1914)
- Married in Tottenham to Amy Eva Johnson, 2-8-1899 whilst still a serving soldier.
- To France with 10th, Sherwood Foresters, 14-7-1915.
- Mentioned in Despatches as Honorary Lt. & Quartermaster, London Gazette 15-6-1916.
- Promoted Hon. Captain & Quartermaster, 12-9-1917.
- Mentioned in Despatces as Q/M & Capt. with 10th S.F., London Gazette 5-6-1919.
- Listed as holding the M.B.E. as of relinquishment of comission in 1920.
- Relinquished commission and retain the rank of Hon. Captain, 10-2-1920.
- Transferred to the Regular Reserve of Officers, date ??
- Per London Gazette - "Having attained the age limit of liability to recall ceases to belong to the Res. of Off., 3-3-1927."
- Served with the Yeoman of the Guard from 1921 to 1959.
- Awarded the Royal Victorian Medal (Silver) as a Yeoman of the Guard in the Queen's Birthday Honours, 12-6-1958.
- Address per MIC: 26 West St., Carshalton, Surrey (medals claim 1920)
- ALSO MBE ?? and/or OBE.
- Died in Surrey on 21-6-1961, age 88.
The following pictures are of him in first the Sergeants Mess photo (on the right hand side, middle) and in the photo of "A" Company.
Steve.
-
A picture of Frederick William Pearsall of "B" Company with cat.... aw, bless...
It appears that he was killed by Afridi tribesmen in the Maidan Valley whilst on picquet duty (outer guard) at Arhanga Pass. The armed camps of the British Army were plagued by the tribesmen firing down into the camps at night, but never presenting an army to actually fight. How times DON'T change....
Incidentally Lieutenant Gifford in the picture met the same fate as Fred Pearsall being killed by a long range bullet whilst in camp at night. He was killed by a gunshot to the cheek on 6-11-1897.
Steve.
-
Stebie,
I can't find an LG entry for the MID either.
Steve,
Here are the basic GRO references for John Humber:
Birth
Either March Qu. 1844; Dorchester 8 60
Or March Qu. 1845; Dorchester 8 61
1st Marriage.
Dec Qu. 1864; Honiton 5b 53
Emma Sarah Palmer
2nd Marriage.
Sept Qu. 1892; Aston 6d 419
Harriett Sarah Craddock
Emma Senior’s Death.
Dec Qu. 1891; Atherstone 6d 263. Age 48
Death.
Dec Qu. 1919; Stratford 6d 785. Age 75
Harriet’s Death.
March Qu. 1921; Stratford 6d 938. Age 71
Census details to follow.
Phil
-
1851, 1861 and 1871 Census:
1851 Census.
HO 107; Piece 1857; Page6.
Owermoigne Dorset
Charles Humber, Head, 28, Ag Lab, born Kingston Russell Dorset
Elizabeth, wife, 25, born Stoke Abbott Dorset
John, 7, born Kingston Russell
1861 Census.
RG9/1348; Folio 109; Page 19.
Owermoigne, Dorset
Charles Humber, Head, 40, Ag Lab, born Kingston Russell Dorset
Elizabeth, wife, 34, born Stoke Abbott Dorset
John, 17, born Kingston Russell
Alfred G, 7, born Owermoigne
Henry, 4, born Owermoigne
Robert, 1, born Kingston Russell
1871 Census.
RG/10/2013; Folio 75; Page 9.
Cottage, Frampton, Dorset
John, Head, 27, Gamekeeper, born Kingston Russell Dorset
Emma S, wife, 28, born Payhembury Devon
Harry, 5, born Bridport Dorset
Frank C, 1, born Claverton Somerset
-
1881 and 1891 Census:
1881 Census.
RG11/869; Folio 103; Page 25.
Park Cottage, Lullingstone, Kent
John, Head, married, 37, Gamekeeper, born Kingston Russell Dorset
Emma, wife, 38, born Payhembury Devon
Harry, 13, born Bridport Dorset
Frank C, 11, born Claverton Somerset
Elizabeth, 8, born Hampton Dorset
Alice J, 6, born Maiden Bradby Wilts
Mary K, 3, born Maiden Bradby (Kate M in 1891)
1891 Census.
RG12/2442; Folio 63; Page 1.
Bramcote, Polesworth, Warwicks.
John Humber, Head, married, 47, Gamekeeper, born Kingston Russell Dorset
Emma S, wife, 48, born Payhembury Devon
John, 9, born Lullingstone Kent
Emma M, 7, born Withyham Sussex
Kate M, 13, born Yarnfield Somerset
Alice J, 16, born Yarnfield
Elizabeth, 18, born Frampton Dorset
-
1901 Census and 1911 Census Index:
1901 Census.
RG13/3204; Folio 63; Page 10.
Donnington Hall, Castle Donnington, Leics.
John Humber, Head, 57, Gamekeeper, born Kingston Russell Dorset
Harriet S, wife, 51, born Ladywood, Warwickshire
NB Emma M Humber (age 17) is with Harriett’s 80 year old mother, Harriett S Craddock at 69 Camp Hill, Aston, Warwicks.
See RG13/2857; Folio 152; Page 16.
1911 Census Index.
Harriet Sarah Humber, 61, residing at Stratford on Avon, Warwicks
John Humber, 67, residing at Stratford on Avon
There is also an Annie Julia Humber, age 11 coming up with the search.
Possibly born Sept Qu. 1899 Holborn 1b 687
Phil
-
This is the 1901 Census entry I think is Thomas Senior:
1901 Census
RG 13/2572; Folio 87; Page 8
86 North St, Stafford
Thomas Pearsall, Head, 60, Cashier CC (County Council?), born Kidderminster Worcs
Elizabeth S, wife, 52, born Islington London
Ethel J G, single, 24, School Teacher, born India
Evelyn, single, 23, Cookery Teacher, born India
Gertrude O M, 13, born Stafford
Ivy W H, 11, born Stafford
Phil
-
Having rechecked the 1911 Census there are:
PEAREALL THOMAS PERCIVAL HUTCHINSON, born approx 1871, age 40
PEAREALL HARRY PERCIVAL JOHN Male, Born approx 1902, age 9 (My note: John on the passenger list?)
Both are resident at Devonport, and on a Military Census.
The others are under the correct names:
PEARSALL ALICE JANE, Female, born approx 1877, age 34
PEARSALL ALICE EVA, Female, born approx 1900, age 11 (My note: Eva on the passenger list?)
PEARSALL EDNA KATE, Female, born approx 1908, age 3 (My note: Kate on the passenger list?)
Again, all three are listed as at Devonport (Military Census).
I can't see Birth records for Harry Percival John or Alice Eva in the UK BMD records, so perhaps he was back abroad until after 1902 ?
There is a birth record for an Edna Kate in 1907.
Name: Edna Kate Pearsall, Year of Registration: 1907, Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep, District: Colchester, County: Essex, Volume: 4a, Page: 805
---
The 2nd Battalion of the Northamptonshire Regiment were based at Colchester during the period May 1904 (upon return from South Africa) to February 1911 (when sailed to Malta to swop Empire garrison duty with 1st battalion).
With Colchester being a garrison town we can't rule out that he may have been with the Army Ordnance Corps by then, however.
---
Extract from the 1911 Army List (Army Ordnance Corps section):
-
Fitting the movements together I have drafted the following rough timeline. Without knowing the exact dates of transfer between units there are some overlaps.
He also may have initially gone overseas with the 2nd Battalion to Singapore before transferring to the 1st Battalion when the 1st Battalion went overseas in 1892.
Steve.
-
Evening guys,
that is some great stuff you've pieced together again, thanks. I'm on a flying visit to the laptop screen but definitely going to make time to take it all in later
Steve
-
Whilst having no luck in finding Thomas Snr or any of the others in 1891 (any ideas?), I thought I would try a different tack and found these two:
RG12/567; Folio 56; Page 24
Centre Infantry Barracks, Aldershot
Percival Pearsall, Soldier, Single, 20, Lance Sergeant, 1st Battalion, Northamptonshire Regiment, born Malta.
RG12/1650; Folio 61; Page 19
Verne Citadel, Portland, Dorset
Frederick William Pearsall, Soldier, Single, 19, Private, born Secunderabad, East Indies.
There is no regiment listed, including on the enumerator's report, but one source cites 2nd Battalion, North Staffordshire Regiment.
I'm assuming (dangerous) that the first is Thomas, going by the regiment, age and place of birth but is the second, the right Frederick William?
Phil
-
Good call, Phil.
I think Percival is pretty likely to be right. Date, place of birth, and battalion all match. The 1st Northamptons (to which he would have been posted in early 1889 after 4-5 months basic training) were based at Aldershot until going to India in late 1892.
I notice that Lance-Corporal Sydney Pearsall, age 19, 1st Northamptonshire Regiment, born in India (British Subject) is on the same page (line 11). Percival is on line 14.
(The 1st Northamptons moved from Malta to India in 1872 which strengthens the odds of Sidney James Pearsall being Thomas Snr's son, as the places of birth of T P H and S J follow Thomas Senior's movements with the 48th.
I have a date of early 1892 for Frederick William's enlistment going by numbers (3650 F A Mihill enlisted 13-12-1891) which would preclude him from being in the Northamptons. HOWEVER, it was possible, and bearing in mind the family connections, likely even that Frederick could have first served in the North Staffordshire Regiment and taken the option to serve with his brothers (as Queen's/King's Regulations allowed) and transferred to the Northamptons in 1892.
His place of birth is ok, but the age is a couple of years too old. But he may have lied about his age to join up?
Steve.
-
Steve,
I didn't see the wood for the trees and didn't spot Sidney. He didn't come up on the search.
As for Frederick William.......I haven't got access to the overseas index, so can't check to see if there are others. A blanket search on the UK records isn't showing up any other contenders through the years. Is the Stafford MI the only other record of his age we have?
Phil
-
The problem with Fred being 19 in 1891 is that Sidney would be that age too...
I think the MI is the only source.
Steve.
-
Except that I have just found an Ancestral File on Family Search. The places are a bit spurious, but the birth dates are worth checking out. Frederick's is given as 30th May 1874.
I think you may be right about him fiddling his age. Maybe he was feeling left out.
Thomas Senior's marriage:
Dec Qu 1867; Romford 4a 203
Thomas Pearsall
Elizabeth Susannah Potton.
Phil
-
My word - there's more than we thought!!!
Thomas Pearsall, Born 3 Apr 1841 at Kidderminster / Married Elizabeth Susannah Potton 11 Jul 1867 at Warley, Brentwood, Essex.
The expanded list of children in date order:
Elizabeth Lina PEARSALL, 9 Mar 1868, Of Kidderminster, Worcester, England
Mildred Agatha Mary PEARSALL, 31 Jan 1870, Of Kidderminster, Worcester, England
Thomas Percival Hutchinson PEARSALL, 14 Mar 1871, Of Kidderminster, Worcester, England
Sidney James PEARSALL, 26 Feb 1873, Of Kidderminster, Worcester, England
Frederick William PEARSALL, 30 May 1874, Of Kidderminster, Worcester, England
Ethel Jane PEARSALL, 23 Jun 1876, Of Kidderminster, Worcester, England
Evelyn Esther PEARSALL, 11 Sep 1877, Of Kidderminster, Worcester, England
Harry Jones Howard PEARSALL, 12 Aug 1879, Of Kidderminster, Worcester, England
Cyril Charles George PEARSALL, 4 Feb 1881, Warley, Brentwood, Essex, England
Gertrude Olive Margaret PEARSALL, 26 Oct 1887, Warley, Brentwood, Essex, England
Ivy Winifred Helen PEARSALL, 29 Jan 1890, Warley, Brentwood, Essex, England
I note that the ones that were likely born abroad are noted as "Of Kidderminster".
The 1st Northamptons were at Warley from 1887 to November 1890 when they moved to Aldershot just in time for the 1891 Census.
There is a considerable tree there back to the 1500s...
There is a christening note for Frederick William dating the christening to 14 June 1874 at Bellary, Tamil Nadu, India.
Edit for spelling error
Steve.
-
Steve/Phil...
you are going to explode my head! Everytime I log on you pair answer a question yet pose two more. Wow. This is amazing! Where do all these kids of TPH keep coming from!? i am glad we have placed Mildred as one of his though as I have tracked her teaching through the midlands and then on to Sheffield in 1901, although she has gone by 1911 (married or deceased)
I note they call him Percival which maybe fits why the photographs all list him as P Pearsall. Perhaps because his father was thomas he was always known by his second name Percival?
1500's...?!!
Steve
-
Family Search is the Mormon's archive:
http://www.familysearch.org/eng/default.asp
Search for Frederick Pearsall and look at the Ancestral File using Family and Pedigree to navigate.
Steve.
-
The Regiment went to Malta 13th October 1868 so Elizabeth was born before they sailed. They left in 1872, meaning TPH and Mildred were born in Malta.
-
Stumbled across this in my travels:
http://www.pearsall-family.org/
Steve.
-
Steve,
I think there is probably enough there to keep you occupied for a few days.
Try emigration records for Mildred. I can't find any trace of her either.
Do you know anything about Cyril? I can't find anything on him at all.
Phil
-
Evening Phil,
there sure is!
Steve
-
I suppose the question is now: Where do you want us to concentrate on next ??
Steve.
-
Well seeing as you ask Steve, as far as the Pearsall brothers are concerned, I'd like to know where exactly they were during the war. Pardon my ignorance but if TPH was given "his commission into the Army Ordnance Corps in 1915" (as below) and Sidney was "appointed Quartermaster & Honorary Lt. with 10th Bn. Sherwood Foresters", where would this put them in the war? The 1st Northampton were decimated at Aubers Ridge in May 1915 but presumably neither guy is now a 'Northampton'? And in their early 40's would they be too old to see front line action anyway? (early 40's - too old, ouch ;D)
Steve
-
Ouch indeed. You strike close to home! :o
Sidney is the "easiest" to deal with. He was a Quartermaster with an infantry battalion - the 10th Sherwood Foresters. This battalion went out to France in July 1915 and served with 17th Division throughout the war. A kindly Sherwood Foresters researcher has forwarded me the War Diaries which I can pass on to you. They are 45mb in size so might take a while. PM me your e-mail address.
The basic outline of their service can be gleaned from the following:
http://www.1914-1918.net/notts.htm
http://www.1914-1918.net/17div.htm
The Quartermaster was an "odd" appointment in an infantry battalion. He was an Honorary Officer (usually a Lieutenant or Captain), but did not have the King's Commission. Therefore a Honorary Captain could not give orders to a Commissioned Second Lieutenant or Lieutenant, but as far as the rank and file were concerned, he was an officer. The Quartermaster role (at least during the Great war) was nearly always filled by a long-serving Warrant Officer (Company Quartermaster Sergeant, Company Sergeant Major or Regimental Sergeant Major) who often had years of experience in the logistics of helping run his unit. The Quartermaster was of course in charge of obtaining stores and supplies for his battalion (usually in concert with the Transport Officer who was a Commissioned Officer).
The Quartermaster of an infantry battalion would not be a right in the front line soldier - Sidney's last shot in an anger was probably against an Afridi tribesman in 1897 - but he would have been part of the Headquarters Section, which would have put him just behind the front line most of the time, and sometimes in it. He basically organised all the food and stores coming in via Brigade HQ for distribution to the men. For example, in a battle situation this could mean he and his men would have to cross the old No Man's land to supply the troops who were holding German trenches.
Therefore, Quartermasters did get killed and wounded, though it was a (marginally) safer job than the infantrymen. As a result, many battalions had one officer who served through the entire war with the same battalion - the Quartermaster. In many ways, the Quartermasters were the nucleus of the battalion.
I've had a check through the war diary but Sidney Pearsall gets no mention - this is not unusual for a War Diary. They only usually mention even officers when the join, leave or get killed, and often the Quartermaster is there in the background getting on with his job - any mention of stores, re-equipping, supplies and dumps is probably him!
So, no Sidney did not miss the war... He saw the Somme, Arras, Passchendale, the German Spring Offensive of 1918 and the "Advance to Victory" from August 1918. Pretty much all of it!
T P H is a bit more difficult. I can find no trace of a medal card for him, so it is likely that he did not serve overseas, and was instead employed in the UK (including all of Ireland at that point). His appointments show him as an "Assistant Commissary Officer, and Honorary Lieutenant" and later an "O.E.O. 3rd Class" (Ordnance Executive Officer, 3rd Class). Both ranks are Honorary Officer ranks in the Army Ordnance Corps, equivalent to Lieutenant rank - much the same as Sidney...
The Army Ordance Corps was a branch of the Army, totally separate to the Infantry (in answer to your question in Post #1 !) , and which specialise in the supply of Ordnance (i.e. weapons, bullets, shells, etc. - anything to throw at the enemy, basically) to the Armies at the Front.
It is probably going to be difficult to pin down his job any further without his service records. You or your father shoould be able to secure a copy from the MOD.
Steve.
-
Three index cards for S J Pearsall MBE of Carshalton, Surrey.
The main one definitely cites 10th Bn.
Phil
-
There are references to S J Pearsall with M.B.E. (medal card) and O.B.E. (award of Royal Victorian Medal (Silver) ), so he may have been awarded the M.B.E. during the war, and the O.B.E. later on.
His medal card doesn't give a date but he was definitely awarded the 1914-15 Star, and a page on the web lists him as one of the originals:
http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/th/read/DERBYSGEN/2004-10/1097404985
Another web-page lists R M S Pearsall as with the 10th Sherwood Foresters, but I think this derives from a London Gazette error (see below):
http://www.derbyshirelads.uwclub.net/Sherwoods/battalions/10bn_officers.htm
I know both Steve Morse and Andrew Hesketh whose information is on these sites. I can go and check with them to see if they have any more info.
Sidney James Pearsall is in the London Gazette of 3-6-1919 where he is awarded BOTH the M.B.E. and O.B.E. as follows:
CENTRAL CHANCERY OF THE ORDERS OF KNIGHTHOOD.
St. James's Palace, S.W.,
3rd June, 1919. '
The KING has 'been graciously pleased on the occasion of His Majesty's Birthday, to give orders for the following promotions in, and appointments to, the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire for valuable services rendered in connection with military operations in France: —
To be Officers of the Military Division of the said Most Excellent Order:—
Pearsall, T./Qr.Mr. & Capt.. Sidney James, Notts. & Derby. R.
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/31370/pages/6803
To be Members of the Military Division of the said Most Excellent Order.
Pearsall, T./Qr.Mr. & Capt. Sidney James., 10th Bn., Notts. & Derby. R.
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/31370/pages/6809
The latter M.B.E. seems to have been changed to award it Richard Montagu Stack Pearsall, whilst keeping Sidney's O.B.E. - which is at odds with the lesser M.B.E. shown on his MIC, but tallies with the later Gazette entry for the Victorian Medal.
Gazette page of revision:
CENTRAL CHANCERY OF THE ORDERS OF KNIGHTHOOD.
St. James's Palace, S.W.I.,
12th December, 1919.
The KING has been graciously pleased to give orders for the following promotions in, and appointments to, the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire, in recognition of valuable services rendered in connection with the war.
To be dated 3rd June 1919.
To be Members of the Military Division of the said Most Excellent Order:—
*Pearsall, T./Qr.-Mr. & Capt. Richard Montague Stack, Notts. & Derby. R.
* Substituted for the announcement which appeared in the London Gazette dated 3rd June, 1919, under the heading " Members"
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/31684/supplements/15456
R M S Pearsall seems to have served with the 10th Liverpool Regiment. I think even the revision in the later London Gazette may still be in error! His medal card shows him as a full commissioned officer (temporary Second Lieutenant and temporay Lieutenant) It shows him with the MC, and there is some narrative on an O.B.E. Later Gazette entries note RMS Pearsall as being M.B.E. and on the Staff attached from a Service Battalion of the Liverpool Regiment. There is no mention of the Sherwood Foresters.
e.g. http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/31799/supplements/2399
I don't believe that RMS Pearsall is related, at least not closely. He seems to be a noted artist.
So, it looks like Sidney James Pearsall's Order of the British Empire award was in June 1919, but whether it was M.B.E. or O.B.E. is open to debate!
Citations were not published for O.B.E.s Wartime O.B.E. and M.B.E. awards tended to be for continous excellent service in the less combative roles in battalions or other units.
Steve.
-
R M S Pearsall's M.B.E. correction was itself corrected later still!
London Gazette 31-3-1920
CENTRAL CHANCERY OF THE ORDERS OF KNIGHTHOOD.
St. James's Palace, S.W. 1,
31st March, 1920.
ORDER OF THE BRITISH EMPIRE.
AMENDMENTS.
The following amendments to the lists of appointments to tihe Most Excellent Order of the British Empire announced in the London Gazette on the dates stated are notified: —
London Gazette, dated 12th December, 1919.
Page 15456 - For T./Qr. Mr. & Capt. Richard Montague Sttack Pearsall, Notts & Derby R., read T./Lt. Richard: Montague Stack Pearsall, Gen.. List.
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/31843/supplements/4000
Which leaves Sidney James Pearsall as being the Pearsall in the 10th Sherwood Foresters, and gets rid of the small doubt I had over the correct identification....
The later Medal award to Sidney James Pearsall with the Yeoman of the Guard.
CENTRAL CHANCERY OF THE ORDERS OF KNIGHTHOOD.
St. James's Palace, S.W.1,
12th June, 1958.
The QUEEN has been graciously pleased, on the occasion of the Celebration of Her Majesty's Birthday, to award the Royal Victorian Medal (Silver) to the undermentioned : —
Yeoman Sidney James PEARSALL, O.B.E., Her Majesty's Bodyguard of the Yeoman of the Guard.
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/41404/supplements/3544
Steve.
-
From the preview of the history of the 10th Battalion of the Sherwood Foresters:
http://www.naval-military-press.com/10th-s-bn-the-sherwood-foresters.-the-history-of-the-battalion-during-the-war.html
I guess that proves he went through the whole war!
-
I suspect that "Willie" might get a few mentions in the book...
-
More reading matter, great stuff steve.
Our 'Willie' sounds like he might be a bit of a character!
-
I don't think Sidney Pearsall's Mention in Despatches link from 1916 has been posted, therefore:
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/29623/supplements/5945
No details, just a name on a list. Lt. Col. W E Banbury (Commanding Officer) and Captain J W Fisher (Officer Commanding "D" Company) are also of the 10th.
Steve.
-
Did you find the 1891 Census details for Mildred when she is Governess to the Langley family in Wolverhampton ?
Steve.
-
Hi Steve,
yes I did and in 1901 she is in Sheffield but 'gone' in 1911...
steve
-
Steve,
If you haven't downloaded the medal index cards for Sidney, PM me.
Phil
-
I've been looking at Thomas and Sidney's likely "passage to India".
I believe their early movements would have been similar:
After enlistment they would have spent about three or four months at the Depot at Northampton in training. After that (the end of 1888 for Thomas, and at the end of 1890 for Sidney), they would have transferred to the 1st Battalion at Warley. On 28th November 1890, the 1st Battalion arrived at Aldershot.
Since both of them were in Aldershot for the 1891 Census, it leaves three possible paths to India for them.
1) Stayed at Aldershot with 1st Bn. until the end of 1891. There seems to have been only one reinforcement ship per year (in November or December each year) travelling to and from the 2nd Battalion who were at that point in "the Straits Settlements" (i.e. Singapore). If they joined the 1891 reinforcement ship they would have transferred to the 2nd Battalion on 18th December 1891, and boarded HMS Himalaya on the 19th December 1891. HMS Himalaya, with 228 reinforcements for Singapore aboard primarily for the 2nd Northamptons, reached Singapore on 2nd February 1892, where they would have stayed for most of the rest of 1892.
On 14th November 1892, the 2nd Battalion finished its overseas posting and returned to England, also aboard HMS Himalaya. Those men who still had overseas time to serve would have transferred to the 1st Battalion on departure from Singapore. HMS Himalaya headed back to the UK via India and arrived at Bombay on 26th November 1892. The newly arrived draft of men from 2nd Battalion joined the 1st Battalion at Bangalore on 2nd December 1892.
Or......
2) One or both of them did not board HMS Himalaya on its draft delivering voyage to Singapore in late 1891, and instead stayed at Aldershot with 1st Battalion until the 1st Battalion was posted onto overseas duty in October 1892. The 1st Battalion boarded HMS Malabar at Portsmouth on 5th October 1892, and sailed to India reaching Bombay on 1st November 1892. They moved inland to their new base at Bangalore arriving there on 19th November 1892. The Draft from 2nd Battalion joined them a couple of weeks later.
Or.....
3) One or both of them stayed in England after 1892, which would have meant a transfer to 2nd Battalion (physically joining them when they arrived back in the UK from Singapore), in which case it's anybody's guess!
I do wonder whether their father's "tradition" of service with the old 48th (i.e. the 1st battalion) meant that they may have stayed with the 1st battalion until the battalion went abroad as a whole, but that is just speculation.... Bearing in mind that Thomas Jnr. stayed with the 1st battalion from 1888 to 1891, he may have followed route (2).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Himalaya
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Malabar_(1866)
Steve.
-
Hi Steve,
Route 2 certainly seems the best fit for Sidney, but would Thomas be to young in 92? (17 I believe)
I am still trying to get my head round how Thomas met Alice in sussex to marry in 98 so we must presume I think that he was in Aldershot (not a million miles from Withyham) until maybe 94 to give him chance to meet her and be old enough to serve overseas. Once he left for India, I presume he didnt then return home again until after the Tirah campaign and in time for his wedding (June 98)
Steve
-
Assuming the "Family Search" records have Thomas's date of birth correct as 14th March 1871, he would have been 21 in 1892.
Sidney would have reached age 19 earlier in 1892 (born 26 February 1873).
Fred (born 30 May 1874) would have been too young at that point, and would have been old enough in 1893, but bear in mind the possibility that he lied about his age to join up, as mentioned earlier.
Steve.
-
ok so you beat me at maths too! Sorry Steve, you are correct, he would've been 21 - you know I looked at that a dozen times and still made it 17! ::)
But...back to my non-military intrigue, is 21 too young to be wandering to Withyham?!
-
Leave in the UK was fairly common. Leave whilst in India was blinking rare. I suspect he could well have gone a-wandering down Withyham way prior to posting overseas, but six years is a long time away...
Having said that we really don't know whether he went overseas in 1892 yet.
Steve.
-
Steve,
Is there an occupation for Alice on the wedding certificate?
Phil
-
I have estimated the brothers enlistment dates as follows:
T P H - August 1888
S J - May 1890
F W - January 1892
Standard service in the Army at that point was 7 years on Active Service and 5 years on Reserve. The seven years active service could be extended to eight by the Army if the soldier was serving overseas near the end of his time, and a soldier could request that he served all of the twelve years as active service with no reserve service. When nearing 12 years, he could again request an extension to 21 years.
Putting the brothers service against these terms of enlistment gives the following.
F W - Enlisted in 1892, killed in action in 1897, after approx. 6 years service, so he was within his first period of active service (7 or 8 years)
S J - Enlisted in 1890, and reached 1897 and the Tirah Campaign after 7.5 years service, so could have been within his first period of service of 7 or 8 years. However, his marriage document in 1899 shows him as a serving soldier and also he was a Quartermaster Sergeant according to the Yeoman of the Guard site, so it seems likely to me that he requested extension to 12 years (1890 to 1902). If he extended to 21 years that would take him to 1911. Reaching his 21 years this close to the outbreak of war may well have been what put him in the frame for promotion to Quartermaster in the Sherwood Foresters, so I would lean towards 21 years for Sidney.
T P H - Enlisted in 1888, and reached 1897 and the Tirah Campaign after 9 years service, so it is almost certain that T P H extended to 12 years, taking him up to 1900. A further 9 years would take him up to 1909, which seems more than co-incidentally near to his Commission as a Sub-Conductor in the AOC as shown in the 1911 Army List. Again, I would lean towards 21 years term for TPH as well. Whether, all the 21 years was served in the Northamptons, or whether he became as Warrant Officer in the AOC for a few years is difficult to say, but I would lean towards a posting to the AOC some time in the last few years of his 21 years service.
Some clarity could be gained on that last point from Edna's birth certificate from 1907.
Steve.
-
There is a birth certificate for a presumed daughter of Sidney in Walsall in 1911:
Name: Sybil A Pearsall
Year of Registration: 1911
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
Mother's Maiden Name: Johnson
District: Walsall
County: Staffordshire
Volume: 6b
Page: 1330
Steve.
-
Hi chaps,
Alice only shows as spinster with an address of New Buckhurst, Withyham and he father as 'gamekeeper'. My assumption is that either he was the gamekeeper at the Buckhurst estate or she was a servant there.
steve
-
Edna? They called her 'Kitty' apparently - so my dad says. I dont have her birth cert but I know she died of TB aged about 21.
-
Edna Kate Pearsall seems to have been referred to as Kate on the passenger list on return from Jamaica so Kitty makes sense.
Then again my great-uncle Arthur Brooksbank (who served with the Pearsalls out in India with 1st battalion) had a wife everyone knew as "Kit" - and her name was Harriet....
Edna's death certificate reference:
Name: Edna K Pearsall
Death Registration Month/Year: 1928
Age at death (estimated): 20
Registration district: Kidderminster
Inferred County: Worcestershire
Volume: 6c
Page: 63
Steve.
-
The apparent lack of 1891 census entry for Thomas Senior and resident family is getting to me. I have tried every combination I can think of for the younger girls, but total blank.
Anyone any ideas?
Is it possible that they went abroad?
To answer your original question Steve, we really need to fill in a few gaps between 1890 and 1898.
I had a look through some of the online directories for Staffordshire last night and found a couple of entries for the family, not that they help.
In the 1896 Kelly's, Thomas Senior is confirmed as Sergeant-Major, drill instructor to the Stafford Volunteers. His address is probably Brook House, Sandon Road.
In the 1904 Kelly's, Miss E. E. Pearsall, (Evelyn Esther) is a Cookery teacher at the County Technical School.
Phil
-
More jigsaw pieces Phil.
I'm going to visit my friend in Groombridge in two weeks time so I thought I would write a letter to the Earl at Buckhurst Estate. Maybe if I make my letter appealing enough he might invite me to visit, show me old employee, visitor records and I can discover which Humber worked there and why TPH visited..!
-
The 1880s and 1890s period is rather mysterious. I assume from the MI epitath that Thomas Senior was in the UK for the 12 years he served with the Stafford Volunteers. One could presume that that was from his return home, and possible discharge in the early 1880s, but the mention of his award of the "silver medal" for meritorious service in 1890 states him as "late Northamptonshire Regiment" which would probably be a little too distant from 1890 if he left them in the early 1880s...
I'm not really sure how rare thirty years service was in the Army at that point, but (perhaps coincidentally) 30 years service from age 18 (about 1858) would take him up to 1888-ish (just about right to be noted as "late Northamptonshire Regiment") and another 12 years in the Volunteers on that would take him up to 1900, and his death. Perhaps, that is fitting the story into the gaps a bit to much!!
Steve.
-
I've double checked the Warley Barracks census pages for 1891 and Thomas Senior and family are not there - he should have been discharged by then, though.
Evelyn Esther Pearsall appears to have married Henry Edward Armstong in 1904 at Aston (Jul-Aug-Sep quarter) - Volume: 6d - Page: 577. She appears on the 1911 Census at Lanchester, Durham, age 32.
Steve.
-
I'd like to revise my guess on filling in the gaps in Thomas Pearsall (Seniors) career with the 48th Regiment:
No. 390, Thomas Pearsall (Senior), 48th Regiment, 1859 to 1886
Enlisted at Liverpool on 22nd March 1859, aged 18 years.
Enlisted by Sgt. William Smith, 58th Foot (later 2nd Northamptons).
Received £3 Enlistment Bounty.
A Labourer at the time of enlistment. 5’ 7” tall, fresh complexion, grey eyes, light brown hair.
Born at Kidderminster, Worcestershire.
A member of No. 12 Company per Records.
India – 1860 to 1865
To India on 5th January 1860
At Luckapore (Uttar Pradesh) in 1861
Lucknow (Utta Pradesh, Northern India) in 1862
Promoted Corporal on 15th October 1862
Arrived at Dum Dum (Calcutta) on 7th January 1864
To {Can’t read} on 28th February 1864
Promoted to Corporal on 1st August 1864
England – 1865 to 1867
The whole of the 48th embarked home via the Cape (Suez Canal incomplete) aboard the Patrician on 1st January 1865
In hospital with diarrhoea on board ship from 16th February 1865 to 28th February 1865
Arrived back in the UK on 2nd June 1865 (per Records – incorrect date)
Arrived in the UK on 6th April 1865 (per Regimental History)
Arrived at Shorncliffe on 6th April 1865
Appointed Colour Sergeant on 1st August 1865
Arrived at Aldershot on 21st June 1866
Appointed Sergeant Instructor of Musketry on 5th July 1866
Ireland – 1867 to 1868
Arrived at Dublin on 8th April 1867
Marriage to Elizabeth Susannah Potton (on leave ?) on 7th November 1867
Arrived at Fermoy on 8th December 1867
Birth of Elizabeth Lina Pearsall (in Ireland) on 9th March 1868
Re-engaged (having served 9 years and 100 days) on 2nd July 1868
Malta – 1868 to 1872
Embarked to Malta on 2nd October 1868 (All of 48th aboard HMS Crocodile)
Arrived at Malta on 14th October 1868
Birth of Mildred Agatha Mary Pearsall in Malta on 31st January 1870
Birth of Thomas Percival Hutchinson Pearsall at Malta on 14th March 1871
India – 1872 to 1880
Embarked from Malta to India (Suez Canal opened in 1869) on 4th February 1872
Aboard HMS Crocodile arriving at Bombay on 26th February 1872
Arrived at Bellary, India on 4th March 1872
Birth of Sidney James Pearsall in India on 26th February 1873
To “Rawanduroy” (??) on 23rd March 1873
Returned to Bellary on 25th July 1873
To “Rawanduroy” (??) 17th March 1874
Birth of Frederick William Pearsall in India on 30th May 1874
“Proceeded to rejoin” on 24th June 1874
In hospital from 2nd October 1874 to 10th October 1874 with conjunctivitis
Promoted to Sergeant-Major on 19th January 1875
Arrived at Cannanore, 4th December 1875
Birth of Ethel Jane Pearsall in India on 23rd June 1876
Birth of Evelyn Esther Pearsall in India on 11th September 1877
Granted Long Service Good Conduct Medal with Bounty of £5 on 9th August 1878
Birth of Harry Jones Howard Pearsall in India on 12th August 1879
Arrived at Secunderabad on 21st January 1880
Ireland – 1880 to 1884
Arrived back in the UK on 25th November 1880
Arrived at Tipperary on 24th November 1880
Birth of Cyril Charles George Pearsall "at Warley" on 4th February 1881 (possibly in Ireland, unless the family has been left in England whilst Thomas is in Ireland)
The 48th Regiment of Foot becomes the 1st Battalion of the Northamptonshire Regiment on 1st July 1881
Arrived at Curragh Camp on 9th November 1882
England – 1884 to 1886
Arrived at Preston on 1st October 1884
Discharged on 23rd March 1886 having served 27 years and 1 day.
Birth of Gertrude Olive Margaret Pearsall "at Warley" on 26th October 1887 (Birth reg. at Stafford)
Birth of Ivy Winifred Helen Pearsall "at Warley" on 29th January 1890 (Birth reg. at Stafford)
Passed Musketry Instruction Certificate.
Next of kin: Wife, Elizabeth Susannah Potton, married at Great Warley on 7th November 1867
Ok, so I might now have a copy of his records....
Steve.
-
According to the lists of Long Service Good Conduct Medals 2275 T P H Pearsall was awarded the LSGC Medal as a Quartermaster Sergeant in 1907.
Steve.
-
That is pretty good going Steve, well done!! I was trying to find time to pull it all together myself but been a bit busy the last week or so.
-
And Sidney:
2685 Sidney James Pearsall, 1st Battalion Northamptonshire Regiment 1890-1901
England - 1890 to 1892
Previously served in the 4th battalion Nottinghamshire & Derbyshire Militia.
Enlisted into the Regular Army at Derby, “aged 18 years & 1 month”, on 3rd April 1890.
A clerk prior to enlisting.
Born at Bellary India on 3rd March 1872 per Records (discrepancy with Info from Mormon's site 26-2-1873)
Aged 18 on enlistment. 5’ 8.75” tall, 128 lbs
Posted to the Sherwood Foresters, No. 2773, on 3rd April 1890
Transferred to the 1st Battalion, Northamptonshire Regiment on 16th May 1890
To Warley on 16th May 1890
To London on 25th July 1890 (a detachment of the 1st battalion posted to the Tower of London - on duty, not in incarceration!)
To Warley on 2nd September 1890
To Aldershot on 29th November 1890
Appointed as Lance-Corporal on 23rd December 1890
Appointed as paid Lance-Corporal on 25th January 1892
Promoted to Corporal on 1st October 1892, later ante-dated to 4th October 1892 in line with embarkation to India.
India - 1892 to 1899
To India aboard HMS Malabar on 4th October 1892
Arrived in India on 1st November 1892
Arrived at Bangalore on 19th November 1892
Hospital with abscess from 15 August 1894 to 20 August 1894
Appointed provisional (unpaid) Lance-Sergeant on 19th January 1895
Arrived at Secunderabad on 31st December 1895
L/Sgt. in "A" Company in November 1896 Secunderabad photos
Appointed Corporal Orderly Room Clerk on 1st February 1897
Appointed Sergeant Orderly Room Clerk on 1st February 1897
Passed First Class Education Certificate on 29th March 1897
Extended service to 12 years active service on 20th April 1897
Passed Hindustani (Lower Standard) language exam on 23rd September 1897
Tirah Campaign from 9th September 1897 to 31st December 1897
Entitled to the India General Service Medal with three Clasps for Tirah 1897-98, Samana 1897 & Punjab Frontier 1897-98
Promoted Sergeant (whilst on the Tirah Expedition) on 1st December 1897.
Arrived at Peshawar on 1st January 1898
Resigns appointment of Orderly Room Clerk on 14th February 1898
Promoted to Colour-Sergeant on 29th March 1898
Arrived at Fyzabad on 19th June 1898
In Hospital with Ague from 24th to 29th June 1898
Home on Leave - 1899
Home furlough from India to UK from 3rd March 1899 to 6th September 1899
Married at St Anns, Tottenham to Amy Eva Johnson on 2nd August 1899
India with 1st Northamptons - 1899 to 1901
Returned to India on 6th September 1899
To Allahabad on 20th September 1899
Passed School of Musketry on 20th July 1900
Birth of daughter, Gertrude Daisy, at Pachmarhi on 11th September 1900.
Gertrude Baptised at Allahabad on 21st November 1900
To Fyzabad on 26th January 1901
Arrived at Chakrata on 19th March 1901
Re-engaged for a term of (total) 21 years on 19th September 1901
Indian Army Attachment in India - 1901 to 1909
Transferred to the India Unattached List on 1st October 1901 to be employed as Head Clerk in the Nerbudda District Staff College
Head clerk, Jubbulpore Brigade, from 1st October 1901
In hospital at Jubbulpore with Ague from 24th to 29th October 1902
Birth of son, Thomas Cecil, at Jubbulpore on 11th February 1903
Thomas baptised at Jubbulpore on 11th April 1903
In hospital at Pachmarhi with Ague from 17th to 22nd July 1903
In hospital at Pachmarhi with Ague from 21st to 29th September 1903
In hospital at Jubbulpore with Ague from 9th to 19th February 1907
In hospital at Jubbulpore with debility from 12th to 20th March 1907
Promoted to Quartermaster Sergeant on 3rd May 1907
Appointed as Quartermaster Sergeant of Mount Abu Sanatorium on 3rd May 1907
Daughter, Lily Howard, born at Mount Abu on 9th September 1908
Awarded Long Service Good Conduct Medal with £5 Gratuity on 12th October 1908
Failed revaccination at Mount Abu on 15th October 1908
Death of Lily Howard on 31st August 1909
Sherwood Foresters attachment in India - 1909 to 1911
Attached 1st Battalion Sherwood Foresters (from India Unattached List) on 1st September 1909
Home - 1911
Returned to England with his family aboard HMS Plessy from Bombay on 5th January 1911
Discharged at Gosport as a Quartermaster Sergeant on 2nd April 1911.
“Exemplary” service – no offences in whole of twenty years service.
Residence after discharge to be: 7 Upper Grosvenor Road, Handsworth, Birmingham.
Note the leave he got in 1899. Six months leave, getting married at the end of it. Just like his brother.....?
Steve.
Edited to remove some question marks.
-
...and because the post was too long, Sidney's Great War notes:
The Great War
Appointed Quartermaster & Honorary Lt. with 10th Bn. Sherwood Foresters, ?? (1914?).
To France with 10th battalion Sherwood Foresters on 14th July 1915.
Mentioned in despatches a Honorary Lieutenant & Quartermaster, London Gazette 15-6-1916
Left 10th Sherwood Foresters sick on 31st July 1916
Evacuated to England on 6th August 1916
Admitted to Hospital at Osborne, Isle of Wight on 6th August 1916
Found unfit for service and granted leave from 6th August 1916 to 20th September 1916
Found unfit at a Medical Board and Leave extended to 21st October 1916
Found fit for Home Service on 30th October 1916
Attached to 17th Home Service Battalion Yorkshire Regiment being formed at Blackpool from 14th November 1916
Found fit for General Service at a Medical Board on 12th December 1916
To Folkestone to return to France to rejoin the 10th Sherwood Foresters on 17th January 1917
Promoted Honorary Captain, 12-9-1917.
Mentioned in despatches a Honorary Captain & Quartermaster with 10th Sherwood Foresters, LG 5-6-1919.
O.B.E. awarded LG 3-6-1919, as Hon. Captain & Q'master, 10th Sherwood Foresters.
Relinquished commission, 10-2-1920.
Per London Gazette: “REGULAR ARMY RESERVE OF OFFICERS. GENERAL LIST. The undermentioned late temp. Qrmrs., General List, Infantry, to be Qrmrs., 5th Apr. 1922, except where otherwise stated : — Capt. Sidney James Peasall, with the rank of Capt. - London Gazette 4-4-1922)
Per London Gazette: "Having attained the age limit of liability to recall ceases to belong to the Regular Army Reserve of Officers, 3rd March 1927" (address: Sherwood, The Park, Gt. Beckham)
Served with the Yeoman of the Guard from 1921 to 1959.
Awarded the Royal Victorian Medal (Silver) as a Yeoman of the Guard in the Queen's Birthday Honours, 12-6-1958.
Address per MIC: 26 West St., Carshalton, Surrey (medals claim 1920)
Other
Died in Surrey on 21-6-1961, age 88.
Death due to Hypostatic Pneumonia & Cerebral Embolism. Address: Avonmore, The Knoll, Dorking, Surrey.
Father’s next of kin address given as Sandon Road, Stafford (no date given)
Steve.
-
I wonder whether Sidney's couple of months posting at the Tower of London had any bearing on his joining the Yeoman of the Guard later in life?
I imagine that the archives of the Yeoman of the Guard MUST have something on Sidney....
To Warley on 16th May 1890
To London on 25th July 1890
To Warley on 2nd September 1890
Incidentally, the "Ague" mentioned in his records was generally malaria (and he was indeed treated with quinine)
Steve.
-
Indeed. Its seems more information results in more questions (and thirst for answers). Sidney does seem to have been plagued by malaria and illness in general. Any clues as to why he was deemed unfit in 1916? Yet, it would seem he was keen to get back to the action later that year - becoming the "inimitable willie".
steve
-
No, his file doesn't give any clue as to why he was evacuated other than stating "sickness". It may have been his malaria flaring up again...
As regards Sidney's leave the Times of 4-3-1899 notes : "The hired Transport Nubia, from India, arrived at Southampton yesterday, bringing 44 officers, 11 ladies, eight children, 1230 all ranks, 47 women and 91 children. Of these 315 are invalids for Netley, 814 time-expired and Reservists for Brockhurst, and 88 transfers to home battalions. Major Wayne, 2nd Kings Own Scottish Borderers, is the commanding officer, and Lt. Colonel Bennett, RAMC, in medical charge."
On the basis that such leave was likely to have been allowed to TPH too, the following arrivals of ships carrying parties of officers, men, women and children in England prior to June 1898 are noted in the Times:
Nubia from Bombay, 21-1-1898
Dilwara from Bombay, 13-2-1898
Nubia from Bombay, 28-3-1898 (specific note of 83 men on furlough)
Dilwara from Bombay, 16-4-1898
Dunera from Bombay, 21-4-1898
Jelunga from Bombay, 28-4-1898
TPH could have been on any of these ships, however...
The "Trooping Season" started in September and ended in March (with the final troops of the season arriving back in the UK in April, as above). If TPH did get his furlough like Sidney then he would have probably got the same six months over the summer.
Steve.
-
Hi Steve,
just looking at the marriage of thomas sr - we have it as November on his detail but earlier we show July. Is November definitely correct?
Steve
-
Let me check.
I'll also send you the copies of the files (Thomas Senior first).
EDIT: Definitely 7th November 1867
Steve.
-
Hi Phil. :)
Sorry I couldn't answer your "call".
I went for the tests I mentioned and they kept me in and operated. :o :o :o
Talk about "shell shock". :)
Good to see there is a summary of all the brilliant information
that has been noted.
Much easier to see the travels of Thomas and all.
I have just been asked by Spof to help with one elsewhere.
Thinking of all at Fromelles today.
Sandy
-
Big files by the way. E-mail may take a bit to get through!
Hello Sandy. You posted while I was posting. I hope you are ok!
Steve.
-
Hello Sandy,
I trust all is now well. :)
Steve,
November marriage looks good. It agrees with the Dec Qu. GRO reference I posted before.
Phil
-
Hmmm, two official dates on records, and two discrepancies from the Ancestral File details.
Confidence in the Ancestral File information is not on the increase :(
Steve.
-
Steve,
I put them on a par with Submitted Entries. Big pinches of salt required.
Phil
PS Presumably the reason some of the date of births have been more accurate is because they appear on the GRO death index data after 19??.
-
I think that at least the information will be roughly ok, and hopefully within a tolerable period of time from the actual dates.
Steve will have to order the certificates using the GRO Overseas index if he needs to know the exact dates!
As you say, the November 1867 marriage fits the details on Thomas's service record.
Steve.
-
Hi Steve and Phil.
On the mend, will have to wait for results for outcome. :)
Thanks for good wishes. :)
I have just come back from Higham Ferrers after taking a picture of the
5th Royal Welsh Fusilliers plaque in the Church there for someone.
Sandy
-
Hi Steve,
Thanks for the e-mails, all safely received complete.
Some fascinating reading.
Steve
-
Sorry to come in at the back end of your story! I have just come across an ancestor who was in the the 48th regiment. Can you tell me how to get a copy of the war records, I seem to be going around in circles.
Best wishes
-
Can you let us know which time period please?
The 48th were called such for a very long period - from 1748 through to 1881 (and even clung to the name through the 1st and 2nd World Wars). The 48th were at Quebec in 1759, at the Great Siege of Gibraltar (the source of the castle on their cap badge) from 1779-1783, gained the battle honour of Talavera against Napoleon in the Peninsular War in 1809, were stationed in Australia in the early 1800s, before returning to take part in the Crimean War from 1856 to 1857 where they took part in the Battle of Sevastopol.
If you let us know a name then we might be able to locate some information, though I have very little directly to hand on the earlier records.
Steve.
-
He was William Lingard (or Lingart) the only information I have is on his death cert which says:
2 Nov 1846 died in Kirkham age 62 (1786), out pensioner of Chelsea Hospital from the 48th regiment. Cause of death bronchitis.
Thanks for your help.
-
Well, there is good news and bad news.
The bad news is that not many of the service records for the earlier soldiers survive.
The good news is that William Lingard's seems to have survived :D
WO 97/625/58
WO Records created or inherited by the War Office, Armed Forces, Judge Advocate General, and related bodies
Division within WO Records of the Royal Chelsea and Kilmainham Hospitals
WO 97 Royal Hospital Chelsea: Soldiers Service Documents
Subseries within WO 97 1760-1854: discharge papers arranged by regiment, but each described at item level. (WO 97/1-1271)
WO 97/625 48th Foot: Lob - McG
Scope and content WILLIAM LINGUARD
Born KIRKHAM, Lancashire
Served in 48th Foot Regiment
Discharged aged 30
Covering dates 1806-1814
Availability Open Document, Open Description, Normal Closure before FOI Act: 30 years, This series is currently undergoing digitisation. Access to certain pieces will be disrupted over the next 3 years and advance ordering of this series is not possible during this time. Please check with us that the pieces that you wish to consult are not affected before you travel.
These are microfilm records at the National Archives. They are currently being digitised for online publication on FindMyPast, but these earlier records don't go online until this time next year (April 2011).
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATID=-3961119&CATLN=7&accessmethod=5
You may be able to request a copy via the National Arhives website (see the "Request This" button on the above link)
William Linguard would have served in the 48th during the Peninsular Wars, but came out of the Regiment before the Battle of Waterloo took place in 1815 - The Regiment was not at Waterloo in any case. Barring illness or disciplinary issues he would have probably been at the Battle of Talavera - so he would have probably have been one of the men who earned the Regimental Battle Honour of Talavera that was worn on the Regimental Cap Badge for the next 150 years.
Steve.
-
I am utterly amazed, I cannot thank you enough. That information is amazing, you have made my day! I will try the archives and see if I get anywhere. I will let you know if I manage to get his record.
Best wishes
-
OK I give up! I have filled in two forms now to request someone to look at the file I need, the first one was for the estimate and received a reply to say it would have to be done by paying for a researcher. I then filled in another form on the research services web page, our paid services, How to contact us, online form at the bottom of the page, record/research enquiry. I received an email back today telling me to fill in the research services form...... where is it....... ???
-
Hoping you might be able to help with my search for details of my grandfather William Campbell McKay who enlisted with the 48th in 1871 as a 14 yr old and was discharged in 1895. From the records I have found in the NA, he was a musician for some of his time. Children born in Ireland, Aldershot, Warley and India. I would like to know where and when he was in India as he made a butterfly collection in India which is now in the Colchester Museum, perhaps you have some details that might help ?
many thanks
-
Usually the dates of overseas servive are on one of the pages of his service record, but I can tell you when the 48th were in the various locations. I don't have a lot of information for the period apart from what appears in the Regiment History:
- 5 February 1872 : Embarked from Malta to India aboard H.M.S. Crocodile, arriving at Bombay on 26th February 1872. From Bombay the battalion moved inland to the garrison at Bellary.
- End of 1875 : Moved to Cannanore.
- November 1880: Embarked home to the UK aboard H.M.T. Euphrates, and went into Home barracks at Tipperary on 24 November 1880. Whilst the Regiment was based at Tipperary, they had detachments at Cahir, Tralee and Clonmel. This was during the period of Fenian Brotherhood activity and the Regiment was utilised on both protection duties where people had allegedly been threatened and on baillif escorts.
- 9 November 1882 : Transferred to Curragh
- 30 September 1884 : Home to the UK and were stationed at Preston, with detachments at Fleetwood and at Castletown on the isle of Man.
- 27 October 1886 : Moved to Aldershot.
- Summer 1888: Moved to Warley with a temporary summer detachment at the Tower of London (also repeated in 1889 and 1890)
- Moved to Aldershot on 29 November 1890.
- 4 October 1892: Embarked back to India aboard H.M.S. Malabar arriving at Bombay via Malta, Port Said and Suez on 1 November 1892.
- 19 November 1892 : Arrival in Barracks at Bangalore.
- 11 December 1895 : Moved to Secunderabad (there was also a detachment at Wellington).
The 48th remained in India until 1911.
Steve.
-
Hi Steve,
Thank you for this information about the 48th. My grandfather joined them in 1871, I have his regimental records, but they don't give me details such as the ships that transported them or where in India they were stationed. I have Aunts and Uncles born in Ireland, Preston, Aldershot, Warley (where my Dad was born) and Bangalore, so having some detail to fill the story is great. As far as I can tell my Grandfather was not involved in any battles, but he did bring back a butterfly collection from his last time in India. He discharged in 1895.
Trevor
-
You are right, the 48th / 1st Battalion Northamptonshire Regiment were not involved in any battles or campaigns during his time with them (the next campaign was actually just after he left - in late 1897 in the Tirah on the North West Frontier of India).
The 58th / 2nd Battalion Northamptonshire Regiment were involved in both the Zulu War and the 1st Boer War but the places that William was known to be at confirm that he was 48th pretty much all the way through his career.
Steve.
-
Hi Steve,
From reading my grandfathers military records it looks like he was appointed as a musician in 1877, but it does not tell us what instrument he played (and family stories don't tell us either), do you have any suggestions on how we might find anything about his history in the regiment out?
thanks,
Trevor
-
Hi All,
Was wondering if anyone could help me find out about my greatgrandfather James Rial. All I know is that he was in 1st battalion and is on the Tirah medal roll, #3959.
Any information would be most appreciated.
-
Hi Nick.
Welcome to Rootschat. :)
I am sure Steve or Scrimmers will be able to help soon.
Sandy
-
Hello Nick.
James Rial's number of 3959 would have been issued about May/June 1893. After a few months training he would have been posted for duty with 2nd Battalion Northamptonshire Regiment who were in the UK at that time, firstly at Colchester and then at Jersey from May 1895.
Private J Rial appears in a group of photos taken at Secunderabad in late 1896 as part of a photograph of a "New Draft from England".
The records of others in the photo graph would suggest that he arrived in India in October 1896.
Whilst He may have come on a different ship I think that it is likely that he arrived aboard the SS Victoria as some of the others in the photograph did. Their postings read:
Serving with 2nd Battalion Northamptonshire Regiment at Jersey;
Posted to 1st Battalion Northamptonshire Regiment, 25-9-1896.
Embarked to India aboard S.S. Victoria, 25-9-1896.
Arrived at Bombay, 17-10-1896.
Arrived to join 1st Battalion at Secunderabad, 24-10-1896.
As you have noted he is entitled to the three medals awarded for the Tirah Campaign in late 1897:
Tirah, 1897.
Punjab Frontier, 1898
Samana, 1897
The latter clasp was not awarded to all of the battalion, but I have not figured out the exact criteria under which some of the battalion fulfilled the requirements for this clasp whilst others did not.
Attached is a picture of a section of the Draft. James Rial is 2nd from the left/5th from the right (as we look) in the attached picture according to the caption on the picture (not in the attachment).
Regards,
Steve.
-
Just noticed 9 pages of Pension records on "some website" ::) - off to check my theories!
EDIT:
Nearly right - a few weeks out on the enlistment date, but got the ship right!
Quick summary of his service:
Previously served in the 4th Bn. Northamptonshire Regiment (Militia).
Enlisted at Northampton, age 18 years, 12-7-1893.
Posted to 2nd Battalion at Colchester, 16-10-1893.
3rd Class Education Certificate, 19-9-1894.
Suffered a wound to the right leg, 19-2-1895.
Good Conduct Badge/Pay, 10-7-1895.
Suffered a wound to the forehead, 20-9-1895.
Transferred to 1st Battalion, 24-9-1896.
Embarked to India aboard S.S. Victoria, 24-9-1896.
Arrived at Bombay, 17-10-1896.
Arrived to join 1st Battalion at Secunderabad, 24-10-1896.
Took part in the Tirah Campaign, late 1897.
Entitled to the India General Service Medal with three Clasps for Tirah 1897-98, Samana 1897 & Punjab Frontier 1897-98.
Granted 2nd Good Conduct Badge/Pay, 25-5-1900.
Appointed as Unpaid Lance-Corporal, 2-1-1904.
Qualified for promotion to Cpl., 28-9-1904.
Appointed Paid Lance-Corporal, 21-10-1904.
2nd Class Education Certificate, 6-4-1905.
Extended his period of engagement from 7 years active service to 12 years whilst at Jullundur, 19-9-1905.
Promoted to Corporal, 30-10-1907.
Forfeits 2nd GC Badge, 10-2-1908.
Qualified for promotion to Sergeant, 30-3-1909.
Arrived back in England at Devonport, 15-3-1911.
James Rial and his family appear on the 1911 Census at South Raglan Barracks Devonport in early April 1911.
Moved to Blackdown with 1st Battalion, 8-10-1913.
Appointed Unpaid Lance-Sergeant, 21-12-1911.
Appointed as Paid Lance-Sergeant, 3-7-1912.
Promoted to Sergeant, 5-6-1913.
Discharged on Termination of engagement, 9-7-1914.
Born at Weedon.
Next of kin: Father, James Rial, Weedon, later wife Annie Elizabeth Rial (nee Nicholson, married at Weedon Bec, 31-3-1902)
Father of James (b. Jullundur, 31-1-1907, christened 6-3-1907), twins Rose Agnes Mary and Nellie Gertrude (b. Poona, 26-6-1909, christened 1-8-1909), and Thomas (b. 13-8-1912 at Devonport, christened 3-11-1912)
{Source WO364}
Incidentally, James' brother George Joseph Rial also served. He seems to have been in the Royal Engineers from September 1901 to September 1913 (in South Africa from May 1902 to March 1907). He re-joined in WW1 in 1916 into the Royal Engineers and served in France (as a skilled carpenter), spent a while in the Labour Corps after he fell off a roof in May 1917 and caused himself a hernia!, before transferring back to an Artizan Company of the Royal Engineers in March 1918.
EDIT again:
As a further point both James and George Joseph's birth registrations appear to be under the name Royle. James was born in the summer of 1877, making him 15 or just 16 when he enlisted, which may explain why he was in the UK for 3 years before going to India (or it may be due to his accidental injuries).
Steve.
-
Hello Steve,
Thank you so much for your quick reply. I knew virtually nothing about my great grandfather before today and feel greatly indebted to you for your assistance.
I know my great uncle Thomas and his brother, my grandfather James Rial also served in the military. I was wondering if you could tell me what regiment they served in? Was it also the Northamptonshire Regiment? I know a little about James (363604). He served in the RAOC reached the rank of major before retirement, and I believe he was a prisoner of war in Changi prison. Any further information on any of these people would be warmly received.
Thank you again Steve for your help.
Nick.
-
The closer to the prsent you get the trickier it becomes to find soldiers as privacy issues come into play.
Most of the 2nd World War records, though they still largely exist, are still private and open only to next of kin, so there are not many publicly available records.
It may be worth contacting Paul Robinson at the Northamptonshire Regiment Museum to see whether the Northamptonshire Regiment post-war enlistment registers include any family references. He may also be able to provide you with a better copy of the above photo.
Do you have the London Gazette entries for James Rial's officer promotions, etc. ?
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/exact=J.+Rial/start=1
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/exact=James+Rial/start=1
Steve.
-
Thanks once again Steve.
Do you have any information on James' brother George by any chance.
-
hi , my name is Vanessa and iv been reserching the Shirley surname for northants reg ,
I did find 2 possible records but I'm not sure if I have the right ones . John W Shirley and a Frank Shirley who died at war , johns papers made me laugh all it says is reprimand drunk , reprimand doesn't follow orders .
I. wonder if any one will help me .
my nan had quite a few photos but over time have gone AWOL .
hope to hear from anyone very soon
-
Hello Vanessa,
Are you specifically looking for soldiers named Shirley from Northampton or soldiers in the Northamptonshire Regiment called Shirley?
The Northampton Roll of Honour created in 1916 (for men of Northampton serving in His Majesty's Forces) shows several soldiers with the surname Shirley (the Roll is not very specific in most cases, however).
1. Albert Shirley, of 122 Loyd Road, Northampton, a Private in the 1st Battalion of the Northamptonshire Regiment. Noted as "Wounded & died in hospital in France"
He is listed on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission as: Private, No. 9355, of the 1st Battalion of the Northamptonshire Regiment - died on 10th December 1914 and buried at Grave No. I. B. 20. in BOIS GUILLAUME COMMUNAL CEMETERY near Rouen. He is shown as the son of Mr. and Mrs. Shirley, of Queen Street, Upper Weedon, Northants; husband of R. F., Shirley, of 11, Queen's Road, Northampton.
2. Alfred George Shirley, of 65 Ivy Road, "72 Army Ordnance Corps Tipner" (no idea what the 72 & Tipner refer too!)
No further details known
3. Arthur Shirley, of 24 Ambush Street, a Corporal in the 5th Battalion of the Northamptonshire Regiment
No further details known
4. James Henry Shirley of 7 Weston Place, a Private in the 3rd/4th Battalion of the Northamptonshire Regiment (a training battalion in the UK)
James Henry Shirley was transferred to the Leicestershire Regiment thereafter (No. 33279) and later rejoined the 4th Northamptons after the war (No. 5877062).
5. John Shirley, of 14 Overstone Road, a Sergeant in the Northamptonshire Regiment Territorials (4th battalion)
The 1918 Absent Voters list describes him as No. 225060 a Sergeant in the 4th Reserve (Training) Battalion of the Northamptonshire Regiment - he is still at 14 Overstone Road.
6. Thomas William Shirley, of 110 Loyd Road (Attested under the Derby Scheme but not yet called up - Group 38)
No further details known
If you are specifically looking at the above two service records I can have a look through their records tomorrow.
If you are looking for a specific family then some family details will help (parents, addresses, etc.)
Steve.
-
oh my god . it's 3 in the morning and you have made me so happy ..
Albert I'm not sure ov a date for him . but saying that the shirleys didn't travel far . Weedon , Moulton , Pitsford .
John W Shirley 1876' . died 1941 Hazel ech NOrthampton served I'n Royal Arttilery northants regiment and served till 1918 Mother Ellen B Mason. Father William shirley
Frank W Shirley born 1881 In Weedon mother Ellen B Mason father William Shirley
died I'n service
The name Shirley is the pain I'n the rear because Ellen died quite young she was only I'n her forties so from a research point ov view I can't get no further back from Ellen &'william I don't no wether he got married again or not I'm unsure
but if you. could research the Shirley name from northants reg And other names you have found . that would be amazing .
that's if it isn't too much trouble .... Tank you So So Much
vanessa
-
I have had a look through the Shirley family, and I think I have identified a few of the family as soldiers serving through WW1. I don't have time today to put everything together, but the I thought I would update you on the ones I posted above. Some are family to John William Shirley, others are not.
As posted above:
1. Albert Shirley, of 122 Loyd Road, Northampton, a Private in the 1st Battalion of the Northamptonshire Regiment. Noted as "Wounded & died in hospital in France"
He is listed on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission as: Private, No. 9355, of the 1st Battalion of the Northamptonshire Regiment - died on 10th December 1914 and buried at Grave No. I. B. 20. in BOIS GUILLAUME COMMUNAL CEMETERY near Rouen. He is shown as the son of Mr. and Mrs. Shirley, of Queen Street, Upper Weedon, Northants; husband of R. F., Shirley, of 11, Queen's Road, Northampton.
This is the cousin of John William Shirley, son of William Shirley's younger brother George.
2. Alfred George Shirley, of 65 Ivy Road, "72 Army Ordnance Corps Tipner" (no idea what the 72 & Tipner refer too!)
Serving at the Royal Navy Ordnance Stores at Tipnor, Portsmouth (Room 72?)
I think this is probably an unrelated Alfred George Shirley RN, born 4-5-1891 at Saltash, Cornwall – he is serving overseas in the Royal Navy in 1911 Census.
3. Arthur Shirley, of 24 Ambush Street, a Corporal in the 5th Battalion of the Northamptonshire Regiment
This is Arthur SHIPLEY, Corporal, No. 20698 Northamptonshire Regiment and Labour Corps No. 161940, and is unrelated.
4. James Henry Shirley of 7 Weston Place, a Private in the 3rd/4th Battalion of the Northamptonshire Regiment (a training battalion in the UK)
James Henry Shirley was transferred to the Leicestershire Regiment thereafter (No. 33279) and later rejoined the 4th Northamptons after the war (No. 5877062).
I think this is probably James Henry Shirley, b. 1878 – son of George Shirley, and brother of Albert Shirley, above.
5. John Shirley, of 14 Overstone Road, a Sergeant in the Northamptonshire Regiment Territorials (4th battalion)
The 1918 Absent Voters list describes him as No. 225060 a Sergeant in the 4th Reserve (Training) Battalion of the Northamptonshire Regiment - he is still at 14 Overstone Road.
I think this is probably John Shirley, born at Bethnal Green, circa 1888 - a whole family by the name of Shirley moved up from Bethnal Green to Northampton in the 1900s. This man appears to be from that family.
6. Thomas William Shirley, of 110 Loyd Road (Attested under the Derby Scheme but not yet called up - Group 38)
I'm still not sure on this man. Group 38 was for married men born in 1886 who were due for call up on 29-5-1916. Group 38 is consistent with William Shirley, the third son of George Shirley. However, that doesn't explain where the "Thomas" part has come from!
I will post more later, probably tomorrow.
Steve.
-
that is so cool . how am I ever gonna repay for your time and effort . there arnt many out there that would help a stranger again thank you so much .
ness x
-
there are alot of William I'n the Shirley line .
could Thomas be passed down from my gggrandma family but then that's a huge can as she was a Ellen bunting then I'n census she was bunting Mason cause she married then I haven't a clue her husband must have died then she married my gggrandfather William Shirley . so her surname then became bunting Mason Shirley .I hope this helps rather than hinders . ness
-
William was a brother of James Henry and Albert. There was also another brother George
-
William was a brother of James Henry and Albert. There was also another brother George
thanks for your reply . im sorry it is rather late but iv only just come back from a holiday . and as iv lost my iphone that had all my research on iv only just managed to get all my emails .
-
There were also two sisters, Mary and Lily.
These were the children of George, William's brother. William it would seem took his family to Pitsford via Naseby.
They had the folowing children:Kate, John, Jane, Harry, Frank William, Susan and one other daughter.
-
nnlad , you are quite correct on that fact . there was kate elizabeth my grest aunt. john william he served in the northants regiment in 1898 for the full 22 years . he is my great uncle , frank william . harry , susan is my ggrandnan. Alice who was next and she died in 1975 there was also a bertie who was the final child fom william and ellen , ellen died in her forties all of which lived in pitsford .
quick question have you been reserching the shirley line ........................... ! :-)
-
hello im new here
My ancester Joseph Winterton was in the 1st and 2nd northampton regiment,in the 1891 census he was in aldershot,he married in 1895 in colchester,the same year beginning of 1895 he had a son born on Jersey.
I can`t find him in the 1901 census.
I like to find out more about where he served,how long he served,could anyone give me some direction please.
On his wedding certificate,it says he was a corpral in the 2nd northampton regiment,no number.
Thank you