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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Anne W on Sunday 17 January 10 01:18 GMT (UK)
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Hi All,
Before I give up once and for all on the eternal mystery of my husband's 4x greatgrandfather, Robert Reginald Richmond Rose, I thought I'd lay out what I have to see if any clever person out there could perhaps spot something I have missed or maybe have some suggestions. I think it is impossible to solve, but here goes-
25th December 1800- Robert Reginald Richmond Rose married Ann Waters at St Helier Jersey. Robert gave his birth place as Bath, Somerset and he is the Purser on HMS Pelican. Ann Waters was born at St Helier.
Robert and Ann's children were ELIZABETH b 1801 at Longueville, Manor Jersey MARY b 1802 also at Longueville, RICHMOND PATON b 1807 at St Helier JANE b c1811 GEORGE b c1815 and ANN b 1819 at Mt Orquiele Castle Jersey. Ann is my husbands 3x greatgrandmother. Ann married Thomas Griffith in 1840 and immigrated to Australia with him and their children in 1848.
In the early 1900's Robert's Australian born grandson William C Griffith tried very hard to establish the identity of his grandfather. Letters have survived from this time, replies from the Admiralty to William C 's inquires about his grandfather's naval service. The Admiralty letters seem to confirm that Robert RR was in the Navy from 1799-1806 , but maddeningly only refer to him as "this officer" . When I tried to order the log books of the Pelican for 1800 form the NA UK's Digital ordering service, referencing Purser Robert or Richmond Rose (or any combination of the above), they told me they couldn't find him!
The problem is his name. I've traced his career and he is Robert Reginald Richmond at his marriage; Richmond Rose when he is appointed Deputy Barracks Master in 1809: Richmond Rose aged 51 in General Don's Muster of Jersey in 1815 ( no profession beside his name) and Robert Richmond Rose in 1822 when he started a newspaper on Jersey called "Rose's Loyal Jersey Observer". I have a copy of the letter he wrote to Robert Peel, then Home Secretary, asking for his endorsement.
William C Griffith became convinced that Robert RR Rose was the illigitimate son of the Duke of Richmond and that there was money in Chancery in London owed to his descendants. No explanation has survived as to how he came to this conclusion and the only proof is an old newspaper ad from Lloyds of London asking Australian Griffith's to get in contact with them to "their advantage". This is the family legend that seems destined to go on for another generation, as I can't solve the mystery of who exactly Robert RR Rose was !
I'm ready to light a bonfire with all my notes. It's impossible !
Anne
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Hi Anne
This is a bit interesting as he has exactly the same name
Banns of Marriage 1799
St Nicholas Plumstead, Middlesex
Robert Reginald Richmond Rose to Maria Todd?
Is it the same man?
Annie
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Don't light a fire yet, everyone here loves a good mystery ;D
James
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The Navy List of 1814 on Google Books Search has him as Robert Richmond ROSE, with date of his first warrant as a Purser on 18 April 1799.
Ian C
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Thanks all for your replies. Goodness Annie the Banns of marriage to Maria Todd is a bombshell!! It's the first I've seen of him linked to someone other than Ann Waters. I bet it is him and would explain a lot. I've always thought that there was something fishy about our Robert RR and it wouldn't suprise me if his marriage to Ann in Dec 1800 was bigimy.
In 1838 Ann applies for a copy of her marriage certificate. Why? In the 1841 census she is living on " Independant "means in St Helier. Could it be that Robert RR had died sometime in 1838 and Ann needed to prove her marriage to his sceptical family? Did they pay her off? Or is all this pointless speculation?
It would be interesting to know the month of the Banns of marriage to Maria Todd. Was it before or after he joined the Navy?
Please forgive my total lack of knowledge of English geography. Middlesex is London right? I've never looked in London for Robert RR. The search so far has been in Jersey, Somerset and Jamaica, were HMS Pelican was stationed in 1799.
I'll put off lighting the bonfire and investigate further. Thank you all so much!
bye
Anne
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Banns to Maria Todd 8 Sept 1799.
Cheers
Annie
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These may or may not relate to your Robert.
2 marriages for John George ROSE (he was shown as a widower both times)
father listed both times as Robert Richmond Rose
17 Aug 1847 to Maria MARCHANT at Holy Trinity, Newington
15 Oct 1872 to Margaret BOWMAN at St James the Great, Bethnal Green
I can't find the original marriage or birth for John George
Cheers
Annie
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You've come up trumps again Annie!! I hadn't come across a second (or maybe third) marriage for George Rose. He is a bit of a problem as well. We know our Ann Griffith nee Rose had a brother called George as a letter from him has survived in the family. In it he tries to cheer Ann up. Apparently she was finding Maitland in NSW tough going! He calls himself George. I can trace him and his wife Maria through the census's till 1861 were they are all living at the Woolwich Naval yards. George is a retired Naval engineer and he and Maria have a son George William who was born in Jersey.
After that they disappear. BUT there is a John George Rose , widower, retired Naval Engineer born in Jersey living in Canningtown in the 1871 cesus. Living with him is his son William George born in Jersey. I think this HAS to be them, but why they changed the order of their christian names is anyones guess!
Thank you again for your help. I feel I've found out more in one afternoon than I have for ages !
Bye
Anne
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Glad to help, Anne:)
cheers
Annie
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Hello Annie W,
There is anothe rpossible way of pursuing this and I have sent you a PM with details.
You may be able to find out more on the Duke of Richmond by looking at Burke's Peerage. I think this is available online.
I have ancestors from Somerset and not that far from Bath. At one time quite a number of children were baptised Richmond with it as a christian name. There seems to have been something of a fashion for the name round there. This may be an explanation, unless the Duke of Richmond fathered a vast number of children in those days!
Jo
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A number of boys being given the christian name Richmond around Bath is interesting and could be an explanation. As far as the Duke of Richmond goes, I've always thought that if Robert RR WAS somehow connected he would have been given the name Lennox, which is the Dukes of Richmonds surname.
Deciphering a family legend is interesting isn't it, mainly because the whole story has to start somewhere. Ours could have started because Ann Griffith nee Rose was born in a castle and was a bit posh for Maitland NSW circa 1850!
Bye
Anne
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It's coming to something when I start looking at other people's brick walls in the hope that they're banging on the other side of mine... :-\
Glad you've knocked out a few bricks Anne W. ;)
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Forums such as this are great for brickwalls. Just writing everything out can clarify things a bit and of course fresh eyes looking at your problem can be a big help.
Annie's info on a possible marriage for Robert RR makes a huge difference. I knew he got his Warrant as Purser in April 1799 and had been working under the assumption that he went straight onto HMS Pelican. In April 1799 the Pelican was stationed out of Jamaica and had been serving there for several years. I had been thinking there was a possibility that Robert RR was a local Jamaican man. BUT if Robert was planning to marry Maria Todd in Plumstead, Middlesex in Sept 1799, then I don't see how he could have been in Jamaica on the Pelican.
That means his first ship was probably one of the other ships we know he served on. HMS La Sardine or HMS Resource, both of which were captured French ships and were non active and being held in reserve. The Resource was being used as a floating gun platform on the "upper Thames" to guard against French invasion.
By the way, where exactly is the "upper Thames "?
bye
Anne
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Hello Annie W,
It might be worthwhile to put a post on the Armed Forces board to see if any Navy experts can suggest how you might trace more information on the Naval service of Robert Rose.
There is quite a bit on him on the Ancestry World Tree but I suspect you may be linked to this entry.
Have you ever tried to find a Will for him? It sounds as if he would have made one, question is where is it? This might throw more light on his family(ies).
The "upper Thames" is the part of the River Thames near to its source. So it is the part of the river round Reading and Henley on Thames. Someone on the Armed Forces board might be able to enlighten you more as to the meaning of this in Naval terms.
Jo
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If there is a will for him, and there should be as all armed forces were required to make one, it should be at the National Archives, Kew.
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Sorry Jo I've been an idiot! The Resource was a floating gun battery on the Lower Hope on the River Thames. But that was in 1801, before that she was in service off Egypt. The Sardine, the other ship Robert RR was on was captured from the French in 1796 and sold in 1806 and doesn't seem to have done much in between. The Pelican, the ship he says he was Purser of at his marriage in Dec 1800 was in 1799 stationed in Jamaica.
I can't find a will for Robert RR Rose. I've searched every possible combination of his name. Very frustrating indeed!
Bye
Ann
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Came across this thread again after a long time out of family history research. 6 years ago I was looking for our Robert RR Rose and I still am! Though I know much more about him than I did back then. In fact I now more about this man's life than any other ancestor I've researched, everything that is except where he was born or who is parents were!!!
Robert Reginald Richmond Rose died at Westminster London and was buried at St John the Evangelist on 4th May 1829. The address given in the church register was 13 Medway St Westminster.
The whole Rose family had come to London from Jersey in 1826 and originally were living at Red Cross St Southwark. This is the address given on Robert's application letter to the Greenwich School in May 1826 when he was applying for his three youngest children, Jane ,John George and Ann, to be admitted. The Greenwich School was a charity school for the families of ex Naval personnel who found themselves in financial difficulties. Robert says in his letter that trying to start his Newspaper in Jersey cost him all his founds.
The most informative part of this letter was the surprising fact that RRR's daughter Jane ( born 1813 St Helier Jersey) and his son Robert Richmond ( born 1809 St Helier and mentioned in the application) were alive in 1826. The assumption was that they had died as babies, mainly because nothing has ever been found on them apart from their birth . Shows you should never assume anything!
I can't find a thing on son Robert Richmond Rose. There are plenty of Robert Roses around the right age in the English census's but none born in Jersey. He is not in any of the Jersey censuses even though his mother and sister Ann eventually return there. Jane could be the Jane Rose who married William Edward Bishop at St John the Evangelist in 1832. But again I can't find this couple in any censuses . Very frustrating!
The oddest thing to come out of the Greenwich School papers I order from National Archives UK was
the signing of the 50 pound surety for John George Rose in September 1828. This was when he was starting the senior school at Greenwich and was to ensure John George joined the Navy after his education ( he did). His mother Ann Rose signed, calling herself a widow ( she wasn't) and giving her address as 13 Medway St. Co signing the surety was Robertine Bouton also a widow and also giving her address as 13 Medway st.
It was really easy to trace Robertine Bouton. She was French and the widow of Antoine Augustin Bouton, a member of the Legion d'Honeur and a loyal soldier of Napoleon.
So Ann Rose ,wife of a Royal Navy officer who spent his entire naval career fighting the French was living with the widow of a French officer and pretending to be a widow herself!!!
Is it any wonder this family drives me crazy?
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This is a fascinating tale, but I'm a bit confused. Was the 1799 event a marriage, or only publication of banns? One of the parties may have chickened out, and the later marriage may not have been bigamous?
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Have never found a marriage for Robert R R Rose and Maria Todd only the reading of the banns in 1799. At the time Robert has received his Warrant and been assigned as Purser to HMS Pelican and was waiting for his ship to come in ,literally. The Pelican was in Jamaica for most of 1799.
He definitely married Ann Waters in St Helier Jersey in December 1800. The interesting thing is Ann was a local Jersey girl born and bred and looking at our Robert's Naval career and the ships he was on it is hard to see how he could have spent any time at all in Jersey in 1800. The Pelican arrived in Jersey in August 1800 and he married Ann in December. Pretty quick going!!
I would bet money that he DID marry Maria Todd in 1799 and his " marriage" to Ann Waters was some sort of shotgun affair. Maybe he was the atypical sailor with a wife in every port!
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I am struggling to find a marriage between Robert RR Rose and Ann Waters in Jersey. I can find several children baptised to the couple - Robert is sometimes referred to as Richmond and sometimes as Robert Richmond
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I'm getting confused here
Reply #4 states:
In 1838 Ann applies for a copy of her marriage certificate. Why? In the 1841 census she is living on " Independant "means in St Helier. Could it be that Robert RR had died sometime in 1838 and Ann needed to prove her marriage to his sceptical family? Did they pay her off? Or is all this pointless speculation?
and later
Robert Reginald Richmond Rose died at Westminster London and was buried at St John the Evangelist on 4th May 1829. The address given in the church register was 13 Medway St Westminster.
The whole Rose family had come to London from Jersey in 1826 and originally were living at Red Cross St Southwark.
Did Ann Rose / Waters return to jersey after she was widowed?
The thrice married son John George Rose was baptised 16 Jun 1816 in Jersey. If his son was born in Jersey, it is likely the elusive 1st marriage was also there.
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I've never found a record of their marriage either BUT a family member has the copy of the parish record of the marriage that was made in the mid 1830's presumably at Ann's request. We think she may have tried to get some sort of Naval widow's pension or something and needed proof of marriage.
It's one of those side issues that I've been meaning to investigate. Whether the UK government had brought in a pension for the widows of ex naval officers around that time.
Also Robert RR himself in the Greenwich School application gives the date and place of his marriage so I think we can be sure it took place.
Ann Rose nee Waters and her daughter Ann returned to Jersey sometime between the death of RRR in 1829 and the 1841 census. Ann sen is listed as Independent means in that Census.
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The baptism (privately) of Robert Richmond jnr states parents as Mr Robert Richmond Rose and Mrs Ann Waters.
The baptisms of Ann, Esther jane and John George state parents as (Mr) Richmond Rose and Ann Rose his wife. Ann and Esther were also privately baptised.
John George has godparents listed so presume public baptism. Gps were F (presume father - common in Jersey certainly with my lot), John Waters and Ann Waters.
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The major focus of my research now is to try and find out what happened to Robert RR and Ann Rose's two children Robert Richmond Rose born 1809 in Jersey and Jane born 1813 Jersey. We now know they were both alive and in London in 1826-28.
Poor Jane seems to have had a real Dickens type experience. There is the birth of a Richmond Levi born in January 1831 at the Marylebone Workhouse, mother Jane Rose , father Charles Levi. It would seem that the baby was illegitimate. The name Richmond was an important one in this Rose family and I really think this is my Jane. I know that Robert RR Rose had lost all his money with his newspaper venture but I don't think things could be that bad that his daughter would have ended up in the Workhouse! Maybe she was thrown out for getting pregnant?
Anyway the baby seems to have died in August 1831 as Richmond Rose in Lambeth. Poor little thing. What happened to Jane after all of this is the question.
There are far too many Robert Roses around in London to trace our Robert Richmond especially as he doesn't seem to have obligingly have used the Richmond part of his name! Not being able to find either a death or a marriage for him is frustrating.
Also Robertine Buton appears as Roberteen Buton in the 1851 census, living in Marylebone. Right above her on the census, living next door in other words, is an Edward Rose. Edward was a Lady's shoe maker and was born in Clerkenwell. This could be nothing more than a coincidence, even if it is a big one!
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I have just found out that Robert Reginald Richmond Rose is my 4 x great grandfather and I came across this information. It is most interesting - and entertaining!
I wonder if anything more has been discovered about him?
I am in Australia and descended from his daughter Ann born 1819 who migrated to Australia in 1849.
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My Husband is descended from Ann Rose through her son Thomas George Griffith. I'm in Sydney which makes the search for Robert RR Rose's origins even more complicated!
I set out at the beginning to find out what sort of man our RRR Rose was and I think have achieved that at least. He must have been from a middle class merchant type background, given the career he had etc. Definitely not from a working class family. He lost whatever income he did have before his death, this on his own admission in the application form he filled out for the Greenwich School.
I tend to think either he wasn't born in the UK or his birth name wasn't Robert Reginald Richmond Rose! Either of which is entirely possible.
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Anne, I'm in inner Sydney. I'm visiting Jersey in September and had no information on my Channel Islands ancestry except from the Censuses. The Channel Islands Family History Society did 2 hrs research for me and gave me some lineage back to 6 x great grandparents and advised there was a lot online if I googled Robert R R Rose.
This thread you started has been very helpful - you certainly have been able to do a lot of research. I hope the brick wall is solved for you one day.
I am from Thomas George's sister Ann Louisa who came to Australia as a child and married Walter Bailey.
Another interest for me on Jersey is the grave of Elizabeth Beckford Vickery who died there in 1874. She was born on Norfolk Island 1790-1 to two First Fleet convicts and her mother was my 5 x great grandmother. Elizabeth got around a bit - grew up in the Colony, married in Calcutta, back to the Colony, married again in London, back to the Colony and eventually to Jersey where she died.
Regards, Marilyn Long.
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What we need I think is for someone to come up with a family bible or something like that. I really don' t know of anywhere else to look !
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Something will come up one day. We have been looking for near 40 years and 2 generations for the background of someone connected to the family and just recently LizzieL came up with the information. Good luck. Marilyn
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The "upper Thames" is the part of the River Thames near to its source. So it is the part of the river round Reading and Henley on Thames. Someone on the Armed Forces board might be able to enlighten you more as to the meaning of this in Naval terms.
The Royal Navy in the age of tall ships is not going to have been concerned with the Thames above London Bridge ... their ships couldn't get there!!
I strongly suspect (but do not take my word for this) that the Naval division between the "upper" and "lower" reaches of the Thames occurred at the confluence with the Medway (on which were sited the Chatham dockyards). So the Upper Thames would be upstream from the Medway to the Pool of London; and the Lower Thames would be the tidal estuary from the Medway to the North Sea.
And if THAT is correct ... then Plumstead is slap bang right on the Upper Thames.
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That's an interesting bit of context for the banns with Maria Todd...
I know this is an old thread but I too am trying to find Robert RR! He is my 5xgreat-grandfather, through his eldest daughter Mary Ann.
She was already married to a Jerseyman, Elie De la Lande, by the time the rest of the family moved to London. Sadly she died young in 1832 - I'm descended from her daughter Mary Ann Sophia (also her only child who survived to adulthood).