RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Northumberland => Topic started by: erin31 on Saturday 16 January 10 15:21 GMT (UK)
-
Does anyone have access to the baptism records for St Michael's, Newcastle Upon Tyne?
My great grandmother Jane Armstrong was only 16 when she married John Kelly in July 1888. As the first recorded child I have was not born until September 1889 I would like to make sure that she did not have another child before this who may of died at birth or not long after.
I think there is a window of about four (five at the most) months for her to have had a child or even earlier if this child was born out of wed lock.
I know this is a pure guess but it is the only reason I can think for her getting married so young.
She was married at St Michaels church and lived at Benwell at the time which is why I think I may find a baptism there. If indeed there is one to be found.
Her other children were all baptised at St Josephs, Winlaton.
Thank you for reading.
-
erin,
In recent months an other Chatter on this board was seeking info from the records of St Michael's.
According to the Tyne & Wear Archives, this is the one RC Church within the Tyne&Wear area that has not offered up it's records for filming and thus easy access.
Why this church has not done this ( it was a directive of a previous Bishop of the diocese of Hexham and Newcastle) is unknown.
So is child "out of wedlock" the ONLY reason for her getting married so young ? What about romance. "So young" ?? Is that you applying modern custom to an event that happened over 120 yrs ago ?
Michael
-
Hi Michael.
No not at all, with regards to applying modern custom that is. Even if she was expecting a child before marriage I like to think romance still came into it.
I just felt that 16 was very young to get married.
I think also that I am correct as I have viewed the 1911 census and it shows that she had had 10 children, 3 of whom had died. I truely believe I have found all the children of this couple who were born after 1989 and thus suspect the 3rd child arrived before then.
After 1989 the couple lived in Blaydon and these records I have been able to access with ease.
There are a number of 'possibilities' in the Newcastle area before this time but I need to confirm the mothers name.
Regards Erin
-
I was involved in correspondence with the diocesan archivist at the time the Bishop's decision was made to transfer the church records to the record offices but it was left to each individual parish priest to make the final decision on condition that if he decided to keep them in local custody he would make the records available within reason to general enquiries. You might be best advised to contact the diocesan archivist if you are not having any luck with the priest.
J.T.A.
-
Thank you for your information. I think I may have to take your advice as I am not having much luck anywhere else.
Regards Erin
-
I am new to Roots Chat and this is my first post. I have viewed the Parish Registers of St Michael RC Church, Newcastle on Tyne for my own family history research, and if I can be of any help in getting the information your looking for Erin let me know.
Sherella
-
hi all
did you say that they were baptised in st joseph's winlaton
i know of 2 st josephs
one in gateshead and one in blaydon on tyne
-
Hi Anthony.
Yes, of course I should of stated St. Joseph's, Blaydon.
Thanks for pointing this out.
:)
-
Hi. Am I being cynical? I think in most cases we can shed our modern ideas of romance if our Ancestors were working people.
Women needed a provider.
Men needed a housekeeper.
& each had natural physical needs.
In my tree, women in particular married young.
Widowers were usually remarried within a year. It was practical. There were children to be cared for, and a working man expected food on the table prepared by a woman.
I was amazed when I realised that my Great Grandmother had married at 13!
AGE AT MARRIAGE
In 1837 – when the minimum legal age at marriage was 14 for boys and 12
for girls – it was possible to give one’s age at marriage as ‘of full
age’ or ‘minor’ (aged under 21), as appropriate. (Indeed, in the
illustrative marriage entry included as a schedule to the Registration
Act, a bachelor and spinster were shown with these age descriptions
respectively.) In the early 1850s, the earliest period for which data
are available, only about one half of bridegrooms and brides stated
their exact ages, although the situation improved steadily and by the
end of the century, virtually all ages at marriage were fully recorded.
There have been a number of Acts of Parliament regarding marriage since
1836, although they mostly concern aspects such as validity of marriages
(including those solemnised overseas), void and voidable marriages, and
prohibited degrees of consanguinity and affinity. However, the Acts of
Parliament most relevant to this present Historical Volume are those
concerning the legal minimum age at marriage:
1836-1928 - Minimum age at marriage: 14 for males, 12 for females
1929 Age of Marriage Act - Marriages between persons either of whom is
aged under
16 are void
1949 - consolidated two previous Acts, repealing them.
1969 Family Law - reduced the age of majority from 21 to 18, and the age at
Reform Act which men and women were able to marry without
Parental consent from 21 to 18.
This is from "Historic Marriages and Divorces – 1837 to latest year and
‘Notes to tables’ " from
www.statistics.gov.uk/.../EXPODATA%5Ccommentary%5C*Marriage*_Historical_Notes.doc
Amazing!
Liz
-
Catholic marriages are subject to Canon Law which then stated that a male must be at least 16 and a female at least 14.
J.T.A.
-
Ah, thank you - the information may still be interesting for Non- Catholics.
Liz
-
Catholic marriages are subject to Canon Law which then stated that a male must be at least 16 and a female at least 14.
J.T.A.
Thank you. :)
-
Liz,
Are you suggesting that those marrying gave their ages as " I am of full age" and/or " I am a minor" ?
Michael
-
The above is the information I was given.
Liz
-
Liz,
But I am asking if your info has it that couples declared that they were "of age" or "minor" or whether they actually declared their specific ages and then Registrar translated those ages into either "of age" or "minor" ?
Michael
-
In the case of Catholic marriages the priest acts as clerk to the registrar and it is he who provides the information which includes proof of baptism and that is why marriages which took place in Catholic churches invariably state the ages of bride and groom on the certificate.
When my great-grandparents married in a Catholic church in 1855 she was stated to be 18 and he 22.
J.T.A.
-
I am new to Roots Chat and this is my first post. I have viewed the Parish Registers of St Michael RC Church, Newcastle on Tyne for my own family history research, and if I can be of any help in getting the information your looking for Erin let me know.
Sherella
I have just joined. You mention having seen the Parish Registers of St Michael's. In the past I have written to them but with had no reply. I am searching for a baptismal entry for a boy, born 24 August 1912, parents James and Mary Convery of 78 Back Alexander St, Elswick. He is not named, perhaps because he died soon afterwards. I'm hoping there may be a baptism registered so I can to find the name of this child. Any help or advice you can offer would be gratefully received. I'm going to be in Newcastle in October and might be able to do a search if necessary.
SusieBabe
-
Hi Susie.
Do you have the maiden name for Mary Convery?
Erin
-
Hi Susie.
Do you have the maiden name for Mary Convery?
Erin
Hi Erin
I do, it's Devlin. Thanks for your interest.
Susie
-
I've just read your email ref. St.Michael's RC registers, Newcastle.
I'm pleased to tell you that these registers have now been deposited at Tyne & Wear Archives and can be viewed on microfilm.
-
Thank you.
I wonder if anyone using the archives and looking at the records for St Michael RC Church could please keep a look out for any of the following....
Marriage of Mary Armstrong daughter of Willliam & Sarah Armstrong of Elswick Newcastle. She married after 1881.
Baptism of children with surname Kelly with parents John James & Jane Kelly nee Armstrong.
Baptism of children of William and Sarah Armstrong of Elswick Newcastle.
I'm am partially disabled which means I have to wait until someone can accompany me to the arhives and I could be wainting some time.
Many thanks.
-
Hi, I can do that for you next week when I visit Newcastle?
-
Who did Mary Armstrong marry?
-
I don't know who Mary married which is way I need to find her marriage. I am totally stuck :-\
-
How did you know she married at St.Michael's RC?
-
I am not 100% sure she was but I do know the family were Catholic and her sister married at St Michaels so it is a possibility.
Due to not knowing exactly where Mary married I am working on the process elimination.
-
Erin,
I usually do look-ups in Catholic churches, but usually folk give me good info to shorten
the search time.
It seems you do not have a specific date or year for the marriage. And there were several Catholic churches in Newcastle at the time.
Some church records contain surname indexes which point to a specific page number, making the search easy. But some churches do not.
I will look in Tyne & Wear Archives to see if St Michael's has such an index.
Michael
-
Hi Michael,
If you're going to T&W archives I can tell you the St.Michael's registers are indexed. I saw the originals but have not been back since the registers were microfilmed.
Godfrey
-
Thank you once again Michael.
I wish I had more information on Mary but sadly I have very little.
I do know she married and by 1911 she had given birth to 8 children although only 4 were still living.
I know it is a long shot that Mary married at St Michaels but if she is not found in these records at least I can cross them off my list.
-
Hi, I can do that for you next week when I visit Newcastle?
Following up my post of August 2010 St Michael's RC Church, I've returned after a couple of years absence to search for the baptismal record of a boy whose birth certificate states was born 24 Aug 1912 unnamed, to James and Mary Convery (nee Devlin). He died Sept Quarter 1912, in Newcastle listed as Convery (male) mother's name Devlin. The church's baptismal register would have his christian name. I live in Sheffield so don't have easy access and wondered if you might have time to look him up in the church records if you were going to be visiting the Newcastle, as you mention in your post. I'd be most grateful.
SusieBabe
-
Tyne & Wear Archives have film of St Michael's RC church records as follows......
Baptisms 1873-1968. (Indexed)
Marriages 13 Oct 1874-15 Sep 1973 ( Not Indexed)
Deaths 15 Oct 1873- 30 Nov 1983 ( Not Indexed)
The indexes of the baptisms were very helpful as they included child's surname and child's mother's maiden name.
There were plenty Kelly baptisms but none with an Armstrong maiden name.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I could not see a Convery baptism onwards from 24th Aug 1912 up to end of October. (I looked in both Baptisms and Baptism Index)
( There was a Convery baptism 14 Sep 1913- born 19 Aug 1913, of Sarah Ann Cupit Convery, dtr of James and Ann nee Cupit. Godmother Mary Turbitt- annotated that Sarah married William Fullen 1st Aug 1936 in this church )
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Archives have this church as Elswick, rather than Newcastle.
Michael
-
Thank you very much for taking the time to search these the St Michael's records for me Michael.
:)
-
Many thanks for the search. I felt there could be a baptism entry between the quarter July-Sept 1912. As his birth registration in Free BMD named him as Convery (male) it suggests he might have died at or soon after birth and this being a Catholic family, they did the usual thing to have them baptised in church asap. I knew St Michaels is in Elswick ( I tend to put Newcastle when I should be more specific) where the family lived - it was their parish church.
-
Tyne & Wear Archives have film of St Michael's RC church records as follows......
Baptisms 1873-1968. (Indexed)
Marriages 13 Oct 1874-15 Sep 1973 ( Not Indexed)
Deaths 15 Oct 1873- 30 Nov 1983 ( Not Indexed)
The indexes of the baptisms were very helpful as they included child's surname and child's mother's maiden name.
There were plenty Kelly baptisms but none with an Armstrong maiden name.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I could not see a Convery baptism onwards from 24th Aug 1912 up to end of October. (I looked in both Baptisms and Baptism Index)
( There was a Convery baptism 14 Sep 1913- born 19 Aug 1913, of Sarah Ann Cupit Convery, dtr of James and Ann nee Cupit. Godmother Mary Turbitt- annotated that Sarah married William Fullen 1st Aug 1936 in this church )
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Archives have this church as Elswick, rather than Newcastle.
Michael
I am hoping that you might be able to help me, Got a marriage cert dated 1894 for St Michaels Catholic Church High Clumber (I think it is, not very readable) Newcastle.Would this be the same Church. Many thanks.