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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: Pat Hase on Friday 15 January 10 12:20 GMT (UK)
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I've received a marriage certificate for 4th Dec 1882 of a John SIMPSON and an Elisabeth PRÖNNEBECK which took place in the German Church in Liverpool. It is a GRO copy written in one hand. Does anyone have access to the original registers for this church so that I could see how the bride's surname was spelt when she signed her name?
The address of the groom is a lodging house in 1881 (he was a mariner) and that of the bride is unoccupied in 1881 so I can't get any clues that way. On later censuses she states she was born in Germany but a Bristish Citizen.
Thanks
Pat
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Does the entry show that she signed her name or made her mark (X)
You say the writing is all in the same hand which suggests the GRO have written it out from the original
They only do that if the original is poor quality. Their usual practice is to print a copy from the original entry (basically a photocopy)
Can I suggest you contact the GRO and confirm which is the case here? If it is an exact copy (photocopy) of the original then there is nothing to be gained by viewing it at the records office
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Hiya Pat...this is for future reference when you get some more info...I have checked and Elisabeth is not there...
http://www.liverpoolhistoryprojects.co.uk/merseysidealiens/aliensname.htm#PALLIS
good luck..
TWO spellings on freebmd
Pronnebeck ElisEbeth
Pronnebseck ElisAbeth
same marriage......allan
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www.lancashirebmd.org has transcribed the marriage and surname is Pronnebeck
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Have you tried contacting the National Archives regarding their Naturalization Certificates???
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/citizenship-and-naturalisation.htm
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Thank you all so much for your suggestions - they are all useful.
The certificate I have is a photocopy of the copy sent to the GRO and therefore not the original church record. I have contacted the Registrar in Liverpool to find out whether they hold the original or would the church records be deposited in the Liverpool Record Office? The Church was in Renshaw Street.
The Liverpool History Project about aliens in Liverpool looks very interesting - perhaps later I can follow that up.
She appears to have signed her name. As she does say on one census that she is a Naturalised British Citizen the suggestion about the National Archives is very useful but I suppose will have to wait until I can visit.
I've also contacted the Anglo German FHS.
It always seems with family history that as soon as you solve one problem 3 more come to take its place! But you learn a lot!
Best wishes & thanks.
Pat
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The certificate I have is a photocopy of the copy sent to the GRO and therefore not the original church record
I think you will find it is the original record you are looking at and not somebody's transcription of it - the GRO only holds copies of originals
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Pat
You need to see if the church, or Liverpool Record Office hold the original register.
The GRO in Southport only holds transcribed copies of the original marriage registers - these transcribed copies were made at the time, (or soon after) the ceremony by the incumbent/priest/registrar and do not hold the original signatures, etc of the bride, groom or witnesses. These were all transcribed to make the copy. This is why the handwriting on the certificate is the same throughout.
Therefore two copies of the marriage registers survive. The original copy being the one the bride/groom signed will usually be held either at the church or the Record Office - the transcribed copy will be at the GRO.
Graham
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I have just had a break through and found an announcement of this marriage in the Liverpool Mercury and the Surname is
given as RÖNNEBECK and her father is said to come from Tetenbull in Germany. RÖNNEBECK does seem to be a more common surname so I have something to work on.
Many many thanks for all your help.
Pat
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The online catalogue of archives in Liverpool Record Office has some references to the German Church, but I saw nothing about registers.
This may link you to the item which will lead to the six entries:
<http://archive.liverpool.gov.uk/dserve.exe?dsqApp=Archive&dsqDb=Catalog&dsqCmd=Search.tcl>
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I had also looked at the online catalogue of the Record Office and reached the same conclusion about the lack of German Church Records. I wonder what has happened to them?
I have found several mentions of RÖNNEBECK in family trees online and hope to be able to make some progress. The error in the transcription would have been quite easy to make but I would still like to see the original if possible.
Thank you
Pat
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The church may still have the baptism & burial records; the building is in Bedford Street South was built in the 1960s. As Lutherans, I would expect them to be in lists under "non-conformists".
The marriage registers would have been sent, like most others, to the local Register Office each quarter. I'm not sure if they keep a separate register at the church as Roman Catholics do.
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Hello
I have looked in the past (mid 1990s) for records from the german church and was helped locally with transcripts of marriages etc. However I think later the records for Liverpool were transferred to the german church in Manchester...so it might be worth trying this. Unfortunately I have no contact info....
I understood that after the church in Renshaw Street was demolished the area was redeveloped. I always wonder what happened to any burials....assuming there were burials.
I did also receive copies of cuttings from the paper about the german church from Liverpool Library.
Regards.
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Recently attended the AGFHS 25th Anniversary Celebration at the Adelphi in Liverpool.
Met a lady who now holds the records for the german church in Liverpool.......her name is Ilona Ziessler and her contact email is (*)
I realise that you may have sorted this now as it started some years ago but the contact info may help others.......
Regards Alan
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Hello, here is the archivar from german Church Liverpool, Ilona Ziessler. I could found out for you:
John Simpson , Stewart Marine, 32 years old, from Aberdeen married Katharina Elisabeth Roennebeck, 27 years old, maid,from Vollerwiek near Tetenbuell in Schleswig-Holstein, the northest part of Germany.
They married 04. December 1882. Widness of the wedding: James Rogiar, William Haggarty, Lizzie Mc Vee, Margeruite Vaughan.
The father of John was Robert Simpson, stonemason.
Father of Elisabeth was Peter Andreas Roennebeck, a farmer.
(entry number 87 in the German Church Liverpool, marriages record)
I found one child:
28. August 1884 Martha Magdalena
the family lived in Liverpool, 65 Tiber Street
widness: Martha Trietschel
Hope it hepls,
best Ilona
0151-48651
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Thank you so much for the additional information. As these are direct ancestors of my grandchildren I am really grateful to you for extracting those details. Regarding the daughter - is the date a baptism in the German Church?
With Kind Regards
Pat
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Hello phh,
As I am familiar with German church archive entries, I can tell you that the date given by Ilona must be the date of birth and not the one of baptism.
Best wishes
Histres
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Hello Histres,
That's great - thank you so much for your contribution - these forums are so very helpful.
You've inspired me to do some more work now on this family!
Thank you.
Pat
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Hello, here is Ilona Ziessler, archivar from the German Church of Liverpool.
I found under number 1086 in the baptism book of our church:
Martha Magdalena Simpson, born 28. August 1884 and baptized 16. November 1884.
Father: John Simpson, ship stweart and mother: Elisabeth, nee Ronnebeck. Lived in Tiber Street 65. Widness: Mrs. Maria Trietschel.
I do not find more children in the baptism book with the name Simpson, so maybe the family moved??
Best, Ilona
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Thank you for the christening date for Martha Magdalena SIMPSON and for looking for further children. Her parents moved to London where their son Richard was born in 1886 and I've found his christening in Woolwich in 1887.
Many thanks
Pat