RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: BillW on Monday 11 January 10 03:39 GMT (UK)
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I have some family who were baptised in the mid 1800s at
Diocese of Dublin,
Parish of St Peter's C of I.
I am having difficulty locating this church and hopefully some photos. Does it still exist?
Thanks, Bill.
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Have a look here - http://www.dublinchurches.com/churches/start.htm
Dara.
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some info on the location of a St.Peters Church Dublin - from Thom's 1894.. I believe this is probably the parish church for St. Peters
Aungier St - Civil Parish, St. Peters
St. Peters, (Established church/CofI) between no 53 and 54
Rev. Morgan Woodward Jellet, M.A.
It seems that church was demolished - see : http://homepage.eircom.net/~seanjmurphy/irhismys/emmet.htm
The church is included on one of the maps I've scanned - see screenshot below. The full 1912 map is online at : http://www.rootschat.com/links/07tj/
Shane
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Good news is that information from St Peter's Church Dublin can be obtained from the RCB Library in Dublin. Records exist for Births 1669-1974, Marriages 1670-1975 and Deaths 1670-1883.
Cheers
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also available online (free) at - http://www.irishgenealogy.ie/
Shane
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Thank you all for your most helpful replies, in addition to an old picture in the Emmet story contributed by Shane.
It now appears that St PETER'S was demolished but it was in the St STEPHEN'S GREEN district, about halfway in a direct line between St PATRICK'S CATHEDRAL and St Stephens Green.
In the 1912 map also supplied by Shane, the street to its west is shown as WHITEFRIARS Street, and there was also a CARMELITE convent adjacent. But now having located its former location, in a more modern map, that part of Whitefriars Street is now shown as PETER ROW. Leading off this, towards St Patrick's Cathedral, is PETER STREET.
So, without doubt this is an ecclesiastical area of very long standing and the name PETER is lasting well after the church.
What sent me to this is a discovery at IrishGenealogy of some baptisms at St Peter's in the 1840s. I now think that there may have been more that are not showing at that site and am therefore keen to get to the RCB Library "one day".
Again, many thanks to you all for pointing me to what I needed to know.
Bill
Sydney
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With such a helpful crew, may I ask a followup question.
In 1872, a baptism was recorded at St Catherine's C of I, father Robert Halpin, carpenter.
The address shown is 6 GREENVILE TERRACE.
I think that this may have been a mistranscription. Could it have been Greville, or Grenville, and where might this have been please?
Thanks in advance
Bill.
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Greenville Terrace was off Greenville Place which was off the SCR.
See http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,419744.0.html
Dara.
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I see it. Thank you.
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This parish dated from about the Norman invasion. The most recent church was demolished about 1980 having been rebuilt in 1863-1867 in Aungier Street,the architect being Edward Carson. That most recent church was on the same site as the previous which was built about 1680
The Duke of Wellington and Robert Emmet were baptized there.
In its day it was considered to be perhaps the most affluent of the Dublin parishes.
Regards Quaxer
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The church was located where the YMCA is now.
I don't think the Duke of Wellington was baptized there - according to my sources he was baptized in the old St. Kevin's church in Camden lane, and the baptismal font used was brought to Dundrum church when St. Kevin's closed in 1912.
St. Peter's was Robert Emmet's family church and there are rumours that he was secretly buried there some time after he was killed.
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Another possible mis-transcription -
There is a marriage of John Disor MACDONALD of Tullamore and Alicia WILSON of Richmond St. St. Peter on 27 January 1836 (Parish of St. Peter's C of I) recorded on irishgenealogy.ie
My question - could this be 'DIXON' and not 'DISOR'? If 'Dixon', I may have one more piece of a family jigsaw.
Chilis
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Chilis, if other factors fit - names and/or places and/or dates - I would go for it, with appropriate notation.
You can clearly understand a faint or badly written x as an s, or an n as an r. What you could do is order a photocopy of the original entry. Even better, photocopies or digital images of a few pages of the register might set up a pattern of how these letters were written.
We understand your excitement at having probably found that missing piece.
Bill
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... What you could do is order a photocopy of the original entry. Even better, photocopies or digital images of a few pages of the register might set up a pattern of how these letters were written...
Im not aware of any facility to order copies of parish records. To see the originals (or microfilms of them) you would have to visit the RCB Library in Dublin.
Shane
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...To see the originals (or microfilms of them) you would have to visit the RCB Library in Dublin...
Would an LDS center have these on microfilm?
Dara.
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You can check the LDS online catalogue at www.familysearch.org. They may not have the film in stock at your local LDS library but be able to order it for a small fee.
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It is my possibly erroneous understanding that these records come from parish register holdings at what I first thought was the NLI but what I now think may have been Dublin City Library.
Whichever, I would have thought that the original, or a film of it, is at one of those libraries.
Bill
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Well, thank you one and all
I think now that I have two courses of action following your advice.
1/ Write to RCB Library hoping an archivist could take a look at the forenames of the groom and give an indication that it could quite possibly be John 'Dixon'.
2/ See if I can order a microfilm via an LDS Centre. In the past, I know that this latter course can take many months but, hey, I've been on this case for almost 20 years, so what's another year....
Having just looked at the churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie website and put in the surname 'Disor', I get nothing back other than the relevant entry. There are very few DISORs in Ireland anyway. Maybe the person doing the transcribing knew a DISOR or two which coloured their judgement when looking at this entry.
Again, thanks for your responses
Chilis
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Is suspect that Disor is either a misunderstanding when the register was filled out, or a misinterpretation during the transcription, as Bill mentioned. Given that the other information seems to fit the clues you have, I would say it's likely the correct record.. and that Dixon was John's middle name. Good idea to try and confirm this though...
Shane
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Thanks Shane.
I've actually now looked at the LDS site and there is no microfilm available for St. Peter's Dublin anyway, so I am limited to approaching the RCB Library.
However, I am more convinced now than ever that I have tracked down a family member - after all these years!
So, we're going with 'Dixon' instead of 'Disor'?
Chilis
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see attached below what happens when I tried writing Dixon in a script font, and then made two small smudges...
It's definitely worth trying the letter to the RCB Library, even though they dont officially carry out research on behalf of people, I have heard of them answering some queries... plus you already have the full details (date, parish etc), so it would be an easy lookup for them
Shane
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Just finally, I suppose, at the listing in www.irishgenealogy.ie, you are given the Book and Page numbers so anyone going to the microfilm can go straight to the record.
On the other hand, I am told by another experienced researcher that the RCBL has many records unavailable due to digitisation taking place (hallelujah!), so be prepared.
All best
Bill
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Shane,
You've made a very good case for the liklihood of a mis-transcription. Very plausible and very well illustrated. Thank you.
Bill is also right about the odds against getting a definitive answer from RCBL, but I'm going to try. I can tell you I'm well used to being 'up against it' when it comes to searching Irish sources!
Chilis
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See what I mean -
I've just looked up the relevant entry on irishgenealogy.ie and under each of the headings Book No., Page and Entry No., exactly as I've come to expect -N/R, N/R, N/R
Chilis
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So where did the records come from? I can see that you have some digging ahead. I did some poking around at entries in www.irishgenealogy.ie and I think all the entries that I found for marriages in C of I churches show the same lack of information.
At least you have the church and the date. Good luck.
But, as Shane and I have both said, IF other factors fit, you have probably found your missing information.
Let us all know what you may eventually find out.
Bill
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So where did the records come from? I can see that you have some digging ahead. I did some poking around at entries in www.irishgenealogy.ie and I think all the entries that I found for marriages in C of I churches show the same lack of information.
most of the CofI records on the Irishgenealogy website are transcripts based on the films or registers held by the RCBL.. as far as I know all available details are transcribed.
Earlier records tend to be more basic and include less detail.. hence the number of N/R or 'not recorded' notations. In later years the level of detail entered increased - e.g. from the 1690s on marriages for St. Peters only contain the names of bride and groom, and date. By about 1813 occupations and basic addresses are usually included. St. Peters seem to have never recorded father's first names for marriages.
Shane
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My faith in Irish archivists is restored!
I contacted the RCBL archivist yesterday, outlining my query and received a reply THIS MORNING. The entry has been looked at and deemed likely to have been mis-transcribed. In other words, I have confirmation that the entry is not clear and could certainly be 'Dixon'.
How's that for helpfulness?
Chilis
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wow! ... great news... at least your mind is at ease and the record fits, and our theories were correct..
Shane
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Yep,
I think it was your illustration that swung it for me, Shane
Chilis
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My ancestors, Mary Shean and Henry Byrne were married at St. Peter's COI on 1 December, 1816, and their five children were christened there. In my browsing it seems the Byrnes were probably members there for a few generations. I know the Alexander Campbell family was related, as well.
My question is, how would I determine where their remains ended up when the Y tore the church down in 1982 and dug up the graves? An article I read said the Huguenot graves were transferred to Mount Jerome, but what about the rest of them? And has anyone ever copied the information on the tombstone slabs that were excavated from the site later?
I was in Dublin briefly in 1974, but hadn't enough information then to proceed with. How I wish I had visited the church before it was demolished!
Henry was a barrister, and they lived on St. Stephen's Green in the 1820's and 1830's. I know that many of those old homes were torn down long ago, but I'd like to try to figure out which home was theirs and if it still stands. Does anyone have an idea where I would seek that information?
Thank you for any assistance,
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The Archaeology report on the exhumation of St Peter's graveyard will answer your first two questions.
http://www.excavations.ie/Pages/Details.php?Year=&County=Dublin&id=11502
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Henry was a barrister, and they lived on St. Stephen's Green in the 1820's and 1830's.
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I checked some early directories for any sign of Henry, but unfortunately no match in the either the 1824 or 1834 list of barristers for anyone with the surname Byrne, or any Brynes on Stephen's Green on the 1834 street listing.
In 1834 there are a number of people in legal professions with residences and possible offices on Stephen's green - e.g. attorney's, and barristers, so it is the correct type of address for a barrister at that time.
Did you locate these details on a later marriage or other record ?
Shane
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Thank you for looking, Shane. Other than the marriage record and the baptism records for four of the five children at St. Peter's, all of my information comes from a little history written in 1942 by my GGM, Charlotte Chapman Rowett Tansey. She was the daughter of the youngest Byrne child, Cecilia Charlotte, and was well-acquainted with her uncles, Henry and Charles. But, of course, there could be errors in the history.
According to that history, Henry, Sr. died before his children were grown, not sure of the year, am guessing it was around 1835, possibly earlier? and haven't found a death notice yet. His wife, Mary Shean Byrne, also died, not too many years after her husband, and I don't know if they had to leave their house at that point, but I would assume they did. According to the history, Charles and Henry did attend college, and the girls were sent to boarding school before the family money ran out. After that, they all earned their livings teaching, and the girls were finishing governesses for a period of time.
Henry Lowe Byrne taught mathematics at LSU in New Orleans, among other things, and then went back to Dublin about 1876, his health in decline, and died there about 1881. I might have found his death online, will have to send for it to see if looks correct.
The records at St. Peter's spell the name Byrn and Byrnes, but Charlotte uses the spelling Burns for her mother's maiden name. "My grandfather, Henry Burns was a barrister, an alumnus of what is now larger and is the University of Ireland. Then it was Dublin College. When Mother remembers her father she was a small child, the youngest of five, Mary Anne, Charles, Francis Dorothea (Fanny), Henry Lowe, and herself, Cecilia Charlotte."
I haven't located anything to back up her memories yet, except for the marriage and baptism records, though. I have been trying to organize myself as to which addresses to send away to for what type of record.
Alexander Campbell, Jr. was a first cousin to the Byrnes children, and I found his parents marriage records and his baptism in the St. Peter's records. He was a divinity student and emigrated to Canada, where he became, according to that little history, the ranking Episcopal bishop in Canada by 1882.
The extended family, whoever they were, must have been involved with the younger children after the parents were both gone, because when Cecilia, the youngest, followed her brothers to America, the family made her wait until she was 18, and then she came over under the chaperonage of a much older and reliable woman, a governess, Miss Leigh, and on a sailing ship, because the family had no faith in steam ships.
Mary Anne Byrnes (Burns?) stayed in Ireland and England, and became a bluestocking. She wrote articles for The Freeman's Journal, though I don't know if she used her own name or a pen name.
Well, that is considerably more info than you asked for! Sorry, I'm losing perspective, so deep into the fun of trying to unravel this mystery. Thank you for any direction you can point me in.
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Thank you for your help. I'll send my queries off to the address listed.
Best regards
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I too am seeking information about St. Peters.
Henry Herbert died in Mercers Hospital not far from the church in 1844 and was buried in St. Peters graveyard. If this church was demolished are the graves still there?
I am trying to discover the ancestry and/or identity of this Henry Herbert. I think he might be my Henry Monkton Herbert.
Grateful for any clues.
Lefayre Palmer
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There are a few from St.Peter's here http://www.igp-web.com/IGPArchives/ire/dublin/cem.htm but at a quick glance I don't think you man is listed.
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Thank you Sinann, so kind of you to do that for me.
Lefayre Palmer.