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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Bill Pearson on Thursday 12 November 09 18:52 GMT (UK)
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Hi!
I'm new to this site, so bear with me. My late wife Sheila was a Kelman before marriage. I have the wedding certificates of my late father-in-law Thomas Kelman who married Annie Meek in Liverpool in 1937 and I also have the wedding certificate of his father George Kelman who married Elsie Allen in Liverpool in 1909.
Now on George's wedding certificate, it states he was 23 at the time of his marriage and that he was born in Scotland and that's it. The only other clue I have is that George's father James was a witness at his son's wedding and his occupation at that time was as a "joiner". I have been in touch with the Scottish Records office and
there are a lot of George Kelmans who were born in Scotland in about 1886/7. How do I narrow down the search.
The only living relative of that age and she is now 93 remembers George being a witness at her own wedding to George jnr in 1940, so he was still alive then, but a lot of Liverpool records were lost in a fire just after the war. She seems to recall that they came from the Inverness area, but at her age her memory might be suspect!
Where do I go from here?
Regards
Bill Pearson
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Hi Bill
Welcome to RootsChat :)
Have you tried looking for George and Elsie on the 1911 census. The 1911 entries can often give more information than other censuses regarding Scottish birth places.
Monica
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HI
lets just say that on that very newest census this is what is shown
George Kelman 24 Occ Sugar Refiner bn Scotland
Elsie Kelman 21 bn Lpool
Thomas Kelman 1 bn Lpool
also states they've been married for 2 and half years and only had the one child.
They were boarding with another family but I can't see any connection there to either George or his wife.
Wendy
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:'( That's a pity that it states just Scotland. I am struggling to see a George born 1885 +/- 2yrs with a father James that fits with the information you have given on the earlier censuses. There are a couple of possibilities but the father's occupation is removed from that of a joiner/carpenter/wright etc. :-\
Bill, if one of the witnesses is a James Kelman, this might be a brother rather than father perhaps.
Monica
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Same here. I know that just because James Kelman appears as father sadly it doesn't prove he was still alive for that 1908/9 marriage of his son George.
It's just a pity George didn't marry in Scotland - what a possilbe wealth of info you may haave got from that one cert.
Deceased was only added if it mentioned. It wasn't a questioned that was asked.
Back to the grind stone i think..
One quick question what address did George give on his own marriage cert?
Wendy
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We could look to see whether George followed Scottish naming pattern for his children perhaps (www.halmyre.abel.co.uk/Family/naming.htm - not always followed, or in strict order, but can often throw up clues for example regarding mother's name in this case). George and Elsie's children show on FreeBmd starting with Thomas' birth. Do you know the names of Elsie's parents?
Monica
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Hi! Monica and Wendy,
Thanks for your imput.
I have the marriage certificate for George Kelman and Elsie Allen confirming their marriage in Liverpool in September 1909. On that certificate, it states his father was James and that he was born in Scotland. He states his age as 23, which would mean he was born in 1886 somewhere in Scotland.
I have invested a fair amount of cash in the Scots People site and there are quite a few
George Kelmans born around 1885/7.
The first nearest match is a George Kelman, born on June 5th 1885 aat Edinkillie in the County of Moray and his father was James Kelman (b1850) and his mother was Jessie
Kynoch (b1848). They were married in 1873 at St. Andrews Llanbryd in the county of Elgin.They had 10 children including George. That birth date would put George as being
24 years of age when he married, not 23!
The next possibility!
There is a George Kelman born on the 8th March 1887 at St. Andrew, Edinburgh. His father was James Kelman (a police constable at the time of his marriage) and he married a Jane Taylor on the 13th March, 1886 in Edinburgh. This would mean this George was 22.5 years when he married. Did he just round up his age? I have not come across any other children of that marriage, so far!
The sear4ch continues
Billo
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HI Bill
Thanks for the extra info'. Are you saying then that on George and Elsie's marriage cert that James (father of Groom) was noted as a Police man?
Wendy
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I think Bill you said that from the marriage cert that father James was a joiner. That is the problem that Wendy and I have been having trying to find him at home with a father James who was a joiner by trade.
There are a few entries that could be the right family as you have found through the birth certs. The problem is trying to match the father to the occupation showing on George's marriage entry.
A joiner (or carpenter/wright etc). tends to be a lifetime trade where an apprenticeship was normally done. It does not preclude someone in later years having acquired the trade though. But nothing at present is showing on the censuses up to 1901 in Scotland which is a pity.
It may be that the 1911 census for Scotland will help but until it comes out in Spring 2011 not sure how we can check further for occupations unfortunately.
Just one thing. Don't worry too much about ages being precise. They very often weren't ;D It is quite normal for ages in registrations (except for the births!) and censuses to be a few years out. Recording of this type of info was much less precise in those days for all sorts of reason. When searching, always worthwhile to do a minimum of +/- 2yrs.
Monica :)
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Hi! Monica,
Your don't give up message has prompted me to look at what certificates I have.
George Kelman married Elsie Allen on the 29th August, 1909 at St. Bridgets, Wavertree, Liverpool. He stated he was a batchelor, aged 23 and that he was a sugar refiner, living at 37, Oak Street. His father was listed as James Kelman and his "rank or profession" was listed as Joiner. Whether the property was a block of flats or a house split into apartments, I don't know, because Elsie Allen was also living at 37 Oak Street and her father, Thomas Allen was listed as a painter.
William Roberts and Abegail Roberts were listed as witnesses.
Their first son (my late father-in-law) was called Thomas George Kelman when he was born at 37, Oak Street on the 28th February, 1910 and his father George was still listed as a Suger refiners assistant.
On the Marriage certificate of Thomas George Kelman to Annie Meek on the 27th March, 1937 in Liverpool, Thomas was aged 27 and his occupation was listed as a house painter. It states his father was George Kelman and his occupation was as a carter! My Auntie Nancy was courting his brother (George Douglas Kelman - 1918-77) and she remembers George being present at Thomas wedding.
Now did George retire and die in the Liverpool/Lancashire area or did he move back to Scotland sometime after 1937 or was he arround for other weddings, the last being in 1946 when Hilda Kelman married Robert C Jones?
A lot to ponder
Bill
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The first nearest match is a George Kelman, born on June 5th 1885 aat Edinkillie in the County of Moray and his father was James Kelman (b1850) and his mother was Jessie
Kynoch (b1848). They were married in 1873 at St. Andrews Llanbryd in the county of Elgin.They had 10 children including George. That birth date would put George as being
24 years of age when he married, not 23!
The next possibility!
There is a George Kelman born on the 8th March 1887 at St. Andrew, Edinburgh. His father was James Kelman (a police constable at the time of his marriage) and he married a Jane Taylor on the 13th March, 1886 in Edinburgh. This would mean this George was 22.5 years when he married. Did he just round up his age? I have not come across any other children of that marriage, so far!
The search continues
Billo
what became fo these Georges? have you found them married with children elsewhere because obviously you can then rule them out
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and this may be along shot but
http://www.archiveshub.ac.uk/news/06042401.html
Papers of the MacFie Family, sugar refiners, Greenock and Liverpool
perhaps he worked for these and that enable the move from Scotland to Liverpool
and http://home.clara.net/mawer/sugarnn.html
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Hi! Toni
Thanks. Had a look under that website you suggested, but could find no evidence of George Kelman. His witness at his wedding was William Roberts who one can only guess was his best man as well. Looked to see if he was employed in the sugar refining industry on that site, but again nothing found.
Bill
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do you think maybe the MacFife family kept records of employees or maybe a senior perrson may have kept a diary whoch could metion George ? it is an incrediably long shot and he was a sugar refiners assistant not the top dog himself - did he work up to this? do you know where he worked in Liverpool?
again this is a long shot but i know someone who was born in one palce and each time they moved the subsequently named thier house after this place and also at one point their business
do you know when George arived in Liverpool? have you looked int he trade directories for sugar refiners but as i said he was an assitant also when did he start paying tax to Liverpool Parish - the parish rate books wil tell you this, that would giev an indication of when he arrived in Liverpool.
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Hi!
Will give it a go. If we assume he was working in the sugar industry from, maybe, 14 years onwards, then we are looking at a period of 1900 onwards.
Bill
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As we are thinking of general records, have you tried looking for any WW1 service records? Given his likely age, likely he would have been active in WW1. Service/attestment papers can often give place of birth.
Monica
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Hi! Monica
Good thinking, well worth a try!
Bill
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Just been having a look on Ancestry and can't see anything obvious for him unfortunately. Tried a variety of spellings for the surname but nothing showing. A number of WW1 were destroyed, something to bear in mind :-\
Monica
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Billy, I asked this earlier. What were the names of Elsie's parents? Was father Thomas and mother?
Monica
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Hi! Monica,
Elsie Allen's parents were Thomas Allen (b1868) in Lancashire and his mother
was Catherine (do not know maiden name) who was born in 1869.
The 1901 census shows them living at 97, Eaton Street in Toxteth Park and then at 37 Oak Street, Liverpool in 1909 at the time of Elsie's wedding to George.
Will be out of touch for a few hours now as I am off to my water colour painting classes!
Bill
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Enjoy your class Bill - water colour painting seems appropriate on a horrible day like today!
I was trying to see whether the daughter Catherine showing for George and Elsie was named after George's mother or Elsie. With what you have said, it looks like it was Elsie's mother's name. Can only see one more daughter born to George and Elsie later with a not very Scottish name which doesn't help with the name of George's mother.
Monica
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My scatter gun approach may have paid off. I have been contacted by a Genes re-united member Karen who thinks we may possibly be related.
She has a George Kelman in her family tree who was born on the 1st June, 1885 at
Edinkille, Morayshire, one of 11 children born to James Kelman (1850-1938) who was born at Rhynie, Aberdeen and died at Dyke, Morayshire. His wife was Jessie
Kynoch (1845-1905) born at Dyke and died at Conicavel, Morayshire. They were married in June 1873 at St. Andrews, Elgin.
Now Karen has a great deal of information on all but one of the 11 children which is George who has fallen off her radar screen. Is he the one who gradually moved
South to Liverpool and did James come to live with him after his wife Jessie died in 1905 and then sometime later move back to Scotland?
I have to try and fill in the missing pieces between George's birth in 1885 and his next appearance as husband of Elsie Allen in 1909 and father of my late father-in-law, Thomas George Kelman, born in 1910.
We know that James (1850) was a Joiner by trade (normally associated with an apprenticeship in carpentry, but he might have just joined pipes, vehicles, etc. and thought the description of Joiner suited him better - I'm grasping at straws!)
Likewise George was a sugar refiners assistant but by the time his son Thomas got married in 1937, his occupation of the marriage certificate was listed as a "Carter"!
Fact (I hope so) or fantasy (more likely alas), so the search goes on
Bill
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Struggling a bit with the 1891/1901 entries but this looks like the family before the birth of their son George:
James Kelman 30, forest labourer b. Rhynie
Jessie Kelman 32, b. Moray, Dyke
John Kelman 8 b. Moray, Alves
Elizabeth Kelman 7, b. Moray, Edinkillie
James Kelman 5 b. Moray, Edinkillie
M A H Kelman 3 b. Moray, Edinkillie
R C Kelman 1 b. Moray, Edinkillie
Address: Conicavel, Edinkillie
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The family's 1891 entry family down as Helman on the transcript:
James Helman 40, forest labourer
Jessie Helman 43
Elizabeth Helman 17
Robert Helman 11
Helen Helman 9
Jessie Helman 7
George Helman 5
Alexander M Helman 3
Simon Helman 1
Katie Ann Archie 11, niece b. Nairn, Nairnshire
And in 1901 - need to find George elsewhere!:
James Kelman 50, estate labourer
Jessie Kelman 51
Helen Kelman 19
Alexander Kelman 13
Simon Kelman 11
Jane Ann Kelman 8
Elizabeth Kelman 8 months, granddaughter b. Edinkillie
Family show in Conicavel, Edinkillie throughout.
Monica
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The closest for George in 1901 (there in no other George Kelman showing as born in Edinkillie in his age range):
George Kelman, 14, cattleman, b. Edinkillie, Elginshire working at the Philip household at Craigroy, Edinkillie.
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Hi! All
I have got that as well from Scots Record office that George Kelman was listed as a 14 year old Cattleman living with James Phillips and family at Craigroy in Edinkillie in the 1901 census.
If we have got the right person, then sometime after 1901 he moved to Liverpool.
Could even have moved to Liverpool after his mother's death in 1905 as that might have been all that was keeping him in Edinkillie. We know where he is in the 1911 census in England (married with 1 child). Do we have to wait out the release of the 1911 Scottish Census in order to confirm or reject our findings.
Bill
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It's probably now an elimination game Bill, so the 1911 Scottish census would help in this respect. The other option open to you, which I don't think is practical as I think you are not in Scotland, is a visit to a genealogy centre where you can view more 'modern' BMDs not available on line to try and find (or not find in this case!) a marriage or a death in Scotland for the George son of James and Jessie.
On a positive frame of mind ;D and being totally optimistic, I can see a possible connection between a forest labourer and trees and wood and cutting and joinery.... ;)
Monica
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Bill
I believe that your wife Sheila was my cousin if her brother was named Alan and his mother was AKA Nancy, hence the the family names big Nancy wife of Tommy and little Nancy wife of Georgie.(refered to their height)
Anyway if this is so my granfather died about 1946ish I dont know for sure the funeral was at St Bridgets I was only
5 but I attended against the wishes of the family sneaking in at the back. He was buried in Smithdown rd cemetery.
My grandmother survived a few more years and his buried with him
My father James second oldest always told me that my granfather spoke of Dunnoon and he did not speak much of his family
but his sister Jessie visited for a short while in the thirties. So it is possible he went south via there.
I hope this helps.
I would be interested to hear more on how you are going.
Moderator comment: topics merged. Please don't discuss people who are still living here - you can use the Personal Message system once you have posted again
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Jake,
Welcome to RootsChat, "The champagne of online family history sites" to coin a phrase.
Might I suggest that you put this reply on the thread that Bill posted on? That way he will receive an email that someone has responded. To find this note he will have to be actively looking for it.
Nick
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Bill
I believe that your wife Sheila was my cousin if her brother was named Alan and his mother was AKA Nancy, hence the the family names big Nancy wife of Tommy and little Nancy wife of Georgie.(refered to their height)
Anyway if this is so my granfather died about 1946ish I dont know for sure the funeral was at St Bridgets I was only
5 but I attended against the wishes of the family sneaking in at the back. He was buried in Smithdown rd cemetery.
My grandmother survived a few more years and his buried with him
My father James second oldest always told me that my granfather spoke of Dunnoon and he did not speak much of his family
but his sister Jessie visited for a short while in the thirties. So it is possible he went south via there.
I hope this helps.
I would be interested to hear more on how you are going.
Hi! Jake, You can e-mail me on
Moderator comment: email address removed to prevent spam and other abuses - please use the PM system to exchange such details, as mentioned above!!
Myt brother in law is XXX Kelman. I often heard about Tommy and little Nancy (nee Harris) was married to George Kelman (b1919) in Liverpool. They married in 1940 and had two children, but only XXX Kelman is still alive. So your father James (b1912) is the brother of my late father-in law Thomas. Can you help on tracing their father George (b1886ish) in Scotland. I think I am on the right track, but have yet to get my information confirmed.
Regards
Bill Pearson
Moderator comment: topics merged. Please don't discuss people who are still living here - you can use the Personal Message system once you have posted again
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Jake,
You have only posted one message, need to post another before we can exchange "personal messages"
Regards
Bill Pearson
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[lHi Nick,
Would like to know more about your Scottish Chisholm connection?? Mine come from Dingwall R&C and Nairn and possibly some went to America??Can you oblige ,
Regards Peter Chisholm
(*) or (*) quote author=nickgc link=topic=429310.msg2939746#msg2939746 date=1263005984]
Jake,
Welcome to RootsChat, "The champagne of online family history sites" to coin a phrase.
Might I suggest that you put this reply on the thread that Bill posted on? That way he will receive an email that someone has responded. To find this note he will have to be actively looking for it.
Nick
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Hi!
Bit puzzled why Nick has put you onto this site which is mainly concerned with the Kelman family from Aberdeenshire. I think you are looking for a Scottish
link to the Chisholms, unless of course you are somehow related, but I have yet to find the connection?
Come back to me if you think that our names are linked, otherwise good luck in your search