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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Completed Lookup Requests => Topic started by: mrsspen on Friday 08 January 10 15:09 GMT (UK)
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This is my first post on RootsChat and so I apologise in advance if this is in the wrong area etc.
I've only been researching my family tree for around 7 months and so I'm a complete novice.
I have hit one brick wall, my Great Grandmother was Annie Woodroffe born around 1886 in Southwark and I cannot trace her maternal line. She appears on the 1901 and 1911 census' with parents Annie & James Woodroffe - he was a claypipe maker. her Sister Mary was born around 1890 also in southwark, london.
I cannot find the births of either daughter, and I cannot find the marriage of Annie & James and so I cannot the maiden name for the mother. This is the only line I havent been able to trace back and as Im so new to this I just dont know what else to do.
Family rumours are that James and Annie were catholic and protestant and so brought one child up as catholic and the other protestant. I assume that must mean I may need non-conformist registers but I dont know where to start. I have found the marriage of the two daughters to their respective husbands, its their mother I cannot trace.
can anyone help or advise me? ???
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Welcome to Roots Chat.
I think you have the sisters dates wrong I have Mary being the elder of the two.
I will continue looking for the birth dates , hopefully with some success.
Regards Amber39
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Just to add to the list of censuses, the family (as WOODROFF) is in Camberwell in 1891: RG12/487/60/31.
Mary's birthdate seems to be abt 1882 from all censuses, rather than 1890.
Anna :)
Sorry - should have added my welcome :D
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Thank you, I have looked at that census and yes that is them, I mistyped Mary's birthdate, yes she was the older.
I'm desperate to find records of their births. I have both Annie (the younger) and Mary's marriage certificates, one cites the father as being James and one cites him as being Joseph but I'm positive I'm looking at the right family.
Family folklore is that James Woodroffe was a Gunsmith until he had an accident and lost an eye, this tallies with what i have found about James where he was a Gunsmith but later became a claypipe maker like his father and brother. without their marriage certificate or the childrens birth certificates, I'm never going to to be able to trace the maiden name am I?
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Hi,
Not what you were asking and I know I may be jumping the gun here - excuse the pun - but have you seen that there's a PCC will for a George Woodruffe, Gun Smith of Stepney, Middlesex way back in 1661?
Regards
Rob
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I am sorry I haven't been at all successful in my search for either the marriage date or the childrens birth dates.
The only possible date I could find for Annie's birth is:
Annie Beatrice E. Woodroffe born 1887(3) Mile End Old Road
Ref. 1c 534.
Perhaps the parents never married and the children would have to have been registered in their mothers name !
Regards Amber39
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Snowball, excuse my ignorance, what is a PCC?
Amber thats one of the entries i have found too, it doesnt seem to fit but i think my only option is to order the certificates that i do stumble across and try to eliminate them.
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The only possible date I could find for Annie's birth is:
Annie Beatrice E. Woodroffe born 1887(3) Mile End Old Road
Ref. 1c 534.
This child (born 5 August 1887) was baptised Annie Beatrice Ethel WOODROFFE on 9 April 1888 at St Luke, Mile End Old Town, daughter of Samuel and Annie WOODROFFE. Samuel was an accountant, of 215 Burdett Rd.
Samuel and Annie seem also to have had a son, William Henry, baptised 5 Dec 1880 - address given this time as 205 Burdett Rd and Samuel's occupation shipping accountant.
I think you can safely rule out this family (1891 ref is RG12/1335/21/36; 1881 at 205 Burdett Rd is RG11/486/163/39).
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Yep, that's def not my Annie, thank you for looking for me. This is a real learning experience for me as in the short 6 months I've been doing this, I've been able to use all the parish records for my family in london and this is the only line I just cannot find. none of the annie's listed on the birth records seem to match mine if I cross reference them with the census. The 1911 census also shows that they had other children that dies and its just annie and mary that survived so i'm baffled as to why im not getting other potential children.
Was it illegal not to register children in the 1890's?
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Hi, it's from he collection of wills proved at the Prerogative Court of Canterbury (1384 - 1858) held by the National Archives. There's a searchable database and each will costs £3.50 to download, I think: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/wills.asp?WT.hp=Wills
Regards
Rob
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Was it illegal not to register children in the 1890's?
Yes - parents had a legal obligation to register births.
It does look to me as though James and Annie did not marry, for some reason. Perhaps one or both was previously married (if so, most likely Annie; James was still single and with his mother in the 1881 census, and baby Mary was b abt 1882). Or perhaps there was a religious incompatibility which meant they did not go up the aisle.
There must be at least a possibility that one or more of Annie's children was not fathered by James, but by either a previous husband or an unmarried partner. Whether or not fathered by James, if not born within a marriage to James they may well have been registered in another surname (Annie's maiden or previous married name) and with given names as common as Mary and Ann/Anne/Annie it's well nigh impossible to narrow down candidate registrations.
This is indeed a tough one - will keep thinking on it.
Anna :)
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hmmm thats really interesting, it would certainly tie in with the fact that James and Annie are allegedly different faiths. On the 1911 census it states that they have been married for 40 years which would mean they married in 1871. But as you state he shows as being single with his mother in 1881, which i too found to be the right person.
I cant find a James Woodroffe marriage entry for that year. On the census it states that they had 8 children, only 2 survive. I get more and more confused by this family.
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Its a difficult name to research. I have some woodruff connections in my tree in Camberwell (and in the same area/ streets as yours) but none that connect as far as I can see. There are loads of different spellings
I have
woodroff
woodroffe
woodroof
woodruffe
woodruff
wooroof
and a simple explanation to the lack of a marriage cert is that Camberwell records have significant gaps :(
Monique
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What was Annie's (the mother) place of birth on the censuses, and does it always tally up? (Same with her birth)
You could try and find possibles with the same birthplace and then cross-check those surnames with the births.
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I've not given up on this search yet, and I ordered Annie Woodroffe (senior) death certificate. It states that she died of kidney problems as a result of falling down the stairs when alone in a house (which wasnt her home) and that the resulting inquest deemed it to be accidental.
So, if there was an inquest, how can i find the details of it? It was in November 1928. I cant find anything on timesonline but i have never searched it before so it could be that i'm not looking properly.
The inquest was held in Camberwell so would the details more likely be in a local camberwell paper? This is my only lead to find out more about this woman.
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I also have an inquest and have enquired at the LMA (london metropolitan archives) to see what they have in the-the librarian told me there is virtually nothing for this area, and unless it was particularly newsworthy, would not have hit the papers
Monique
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where was John/ Joseph on the 1881, and who were the parents?
Monique
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Hi Monique on the 1881 census James shows being with his mother Sophia, initially i thought he hadnt married but looking closely he shows as married but he must have been visting her on the day of the census. I cant find his wife elsewhere. How could i go about looking for them as non-conformists/catholics within the camberwell area?
I know these may be simple questions i'm asking but on every single branch for both me and my husband ive been able to go back to 1800 but this line, is teaching me that family history doesnt always land in your lap!
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Hi Monique on the 1881 census James shows being with his mother Sophia, initially i thought he hadnt married but looking closely he shows as married but he must have been visting her on the day of the census. I cant find his wife elsewhere. How could i go about looking for them as non-conformists/catholics within the camberwell area?
I know these may be simple questions i'm asking but on every single branch for both me and my husband ive been able to go back to 1800 but this line, is teaching me that family history doesnt always land in your lap!
there are some independent records for Camberwell/ Surrey here http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hughwallis/IGIBatchNumbers/CountySurrey.htm#Camberwell but the dates are all too early for you. Some time ago I ran through all the Woodruff families in Camberwell, and by chance came across my notes this weekend-I'll have a skeg for you
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thank you for such a kind offer of help
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your lot aren't easy are they ???
As you say, tracing James with parents James and Sophia is relatively easy. (did you see that on the 1851 they are next door to widowed Thomas price, Gunmaker? I wonder if he was the source of an apprenticeship for young James?)
Accepting that on the 1881 he is married, it should be easy to narrow it down-but I can't find anything (unless he was previously married, or ann/ anne/ annie wasn't her first name). Likewise, I can find no trace of their childrens registration of birth or baptism.
He is missing in the 1861/ 1871 which might offer some clues to Annie and the location of any workhouse hospital he might have been admitted to if he had that accident-Camberwell workhouse infirmary could provide a link as the records there have helped me in the past
sorry I cannot be of much help
Monique
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Hi Monique thanks for trying.
I can find James as a child on the 1851 census with his parents and siblings, then in 1861 as a gunlock filer. 1871 i have found a james woodroffe at the school of military engineering (which i assume is him learning more gun stuff?!) then later with his mother and turned claypipe maker. I have also found a will for woodroffe claypipe maker which i am almost certain is his grandfather but i just cant prove the link.
before i close this down as completed because i fear its been rung dry..how do I go about looking for catholic ancestors or Irish as "annie" was allegedly both according to family. (census says otherwise)