RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: judb on Friday 08 January 10 08:03 GMT (UK)
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I thought I had this lot sorted out but have just read the probate papers and found a couple of children I didn't have.
Thomas DWYER was married twice. I have two of the children of his second marriage and some of the first.
Thomas DWYER b1949, Melbourne, married Margaret MADDEN b 1849 (seems to have two birthplaces listed - Merri Creek and Mia Mia) Marriage 1871.
Children I have are:
Michael Francis, b 1872
Thomas James, b 1874
Bridget, b 1875
Mary Ann, b 1878
Margaret Easter, b 1880
Margaret (wife, mother) died 1879 (I know the baby Margaret is registered in 1880, and the mother's death in 1879 but I think it just took longer for someone to register the baby's birth after the death of the mother.)
The will mentions these two children, extra to the ones I already have.
Ellen Theresa DWYER (Linklater written into probate papers)
Elizabeth DWYER (Johnston added in papers)
Probate lists them in this order: Michael, Ellen, Thomas, Elizabeth, Mary Ann, Margaret. I wonder if 'Elizabeth' is the Bridget whose birth I have noted. I did not find Ellen at all on previous searches.
Thomas remarried 19 July 1880, St Marys Catholic Church, Heathcote and had three further children. I cannot find a birth reg for
Honora(h) Kate DWYER
who I belive to be the oldest (Edward b 1883 and Richard 1884)
Any help greatly appreciated.
Judith
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Judith, What was Thomas's second wife's name? Was it Mary MAHER?
Dee :)
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Yes Dee - sorry - forgot I was looking for Honora as well as the first family.
Judith
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Hmmmm Judith ....well they're well hidden if they were registered....... :-\
I'm still trying...... but I'm not hopeful.
Wonder if Cando could find them.....she's pretty good with the elusive ones! :D :D
Dee
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I'm looking ;)
No luck so far Judith....I wonder if these two births were either not registered or amongst those who did not make it to the Registry.
I have actually gone back to Margaret's birth in 1849...there were two parish records from 1849 and both with the parents with the same given names.. Only one mother has a surname COUGLIN. Both births were at Merri Creek [MERR would be Merri Creek]. I have my doubts whether Mia Mia would have been settled in 1849. First PO 1861
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mia_Mia,_Victoria
I have only found the births of the first marriage as you have listed. Haven't looked as yet for the births of the 2nd marriage.
Marriages
DWYER Ellen Teresa b. Mia Mia
LINKLATER Thomas
1898 Reg#4626
DWYER Elizabeth Susan born Victoria
JOHNSTON Charles
1911 Reg#2685
Deaths
LINKLATER Ellen
Father Dwyer Thomas Mother Margaret MADDEN
At Heathcote 64 years 1938 Reg#14405 [born c1874]
JOHNSTON Susie Elizabeth
FatherDwyer Thomas Mother Margaret MADDEN
At Melbourne 87 years 1963 Reg#24409 [born 1876]
Cheers
Cando
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Thanks for those anyway. I have hunted hard for Honora but not ever found her. She was the postmistress for MIA Mia and was executor of her father's will so I know she existed!
My father is descended from Richard Charles the youngest of the second marriage (Mary MAHER) so I haven't looked too hard for Margaret. There seemed to be little contact between the first and second family. Strange though that they weren't registered as Thomas was a hotel-keeper and later valuer for the Shire so he would have been literate and used to bureaucracy one would think.
Cheers, Judith
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I understand that a number of registrations may have not arrived at the registry in Melbourne...only anecdotal evidence. I also understand that the Bendigo Geneology group may have registrations for the area that do not appear on the Vic birth index. Read it somewhere and the memory isn't too good today. Wonder where the children would have been baptised....there may be some parish records somewhere. Perhaps another query for the Bendigo group.
http://home.vicnet.net.au/~brgs/
I think there is a Bendigo branch of the GSV as well. I will look it up for you.
Death
DWYER Hanorah Kate
Father Dwyer Thos Mother Mary MAHER
At Heathcote 64 years 1945 Reg#22763
Cheers
Cando
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They were Catholic so I guess Heathcote or Mia Mia, if there was a church there. The fact that Thomas's second marriage was in Heathcote leads me to think that was the nearest church. I don't have the cert for the first marriage so am not sure where that was - and, as I said, that is not my line so am not too concerned.
Never mind, I just thought I'd see if anyone else had any idea - and I was surprised to see the two older children mentioned. I think Honorah may have been postmistress at Heathcote not mia Mia.
Thanks for looking, anyway. :)
Judith
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A couple of notices for Thomas DWYER of Mia Mia
http://www.rootschat.com/links/07t4/
http://www.rootschat.com/links/07t5/
Redesdale has a Catholic Church and is across the river from Mia Mia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redesdale,_Victoria
Cheers
Cando
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Hello Judith
I just found this post on a google search, I am working on my husband's DWYER lines at the moment. Thomas is his gt grandfather's brother. I do have Thomas' death certificate which lists all his children to each wife.
I was interested to hear about the postmistress bit for Honorah Kate, as I was surprised to see in the electoral roll that Thomas' brother was a postmaster at Glenhope. They didn't mention that in his obituary, just the farming bit. Honorah only ever appears in the electoral rolls with home duties.
Thomas Dwyer, Shire Valuator and Rate Collector
Died: 27th October 1916, Mia Mia, Shire of McIvor, County of Dalhousie.
Sex and Age: Male, 67 years.
Informant:R.C.Dwyer, son, Heathcote
I had difficulty reading some details on the death certificate, but the order of the children is shown.
By 1st marriage- Margaret Madden
Michael ? 44, Ellen? 43, Thomas James 41, Bridget dead, Elizabeth 39, Mary Ann ?, Margaret Easter 37
By 2nd marriage- Mary Maher
Honorah Kate 25: Edward John 33, Annie(crossed out), Richard Charles 31, Annie dead
JOHNSTON Susie Elizabeth
Father Dwyer Thomas Mother Margaret MADDEN
At Melbourne 87 years 1963 Reg#24409 [born 1876]
Susie is listed as Elizabeth aged 39 on her father's death, she was born about 1877, in between Bridget and Mary Ann, her birth not registered. She married Charles Johnston as Elizabeth Susan Dwyer. I think Charles died in Hawthorn in 1943, they were living there at the time.
Margaret Easter is shown at death and in the electoral rolls as Margaret Esther. It isn't really surprising that some were not registered, it would be a a fair trip by horse or wagon into Heathcote to do the registering, and they would have a busy life, so time would just pass by and then it would be too late.
Hope this helps.
Christine
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Just further to my previous post, fishing around in my files.
Moderators please note that this is my own transcription below from a photograph that I took myself at the Kyneton cemetery.
Michael and Bridget Madden, nee Coughlan (I have that they married 1842 at Campbellfield, so a Merri Creek baptism /birth for Margaret is most likley right) They had the pub at Mia Mia from Jan 1854. Michael died 1855 and Bridget went on to marry Frederick Lars Westblade. Bridget was born abt 1822 in Galway, Ireland, died 9 May 1900 at Westby Park, Murrabit. Margaret Dwyer, nee Madden is buried with her parents. The young Thomas mentioned on the headstone died after a tragic gun accident just outside the Mia Mia Hotel.
Headstone Transcription, Kyneton cemetery.
Erected by
The Beloved wife of
MICHAEL MADDEN
who died AD 1855
Aged 35 years
ALSO
HIS BELOVED SON
THOMAS MADDEN
WHO DIED AD 1858
AGED 13 YEARS
MAY THEIR SOULS REST IN PEACE
AND
MARGARET
THE BELOVED WIFE OF
THOMAS DWYER
who died at Mia Mia 8th April 1879
Aged 29 years
May her soul rest in peace
ALSO
BRIDGET WESTBLADE
RELICT OF THE ABOVE
Died 9th May 1900
Aged 78
R.I.P.
Also PATRICK MADDEN
DIED 30th MAY 1906
Often one will see two baptism entries in the BDM index - one is from the original church record where the ceremony took place, the other is a second record forwarded to the registry office when they asked for records to be sent to them when civil registration began July 1853. Some churches did not comply with this request. (or some reason like that) ;D
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Many thanks Christine for that extra info. You have done such excellent research and helped me so much privately as well.
I found Honora Kate's death notice on the NLA digi newspaper site as well as finding her on Thomas's digitised will. I do recall my aunt (daughter of RC Dwyer) mentioning Aunt Kate but I didn't listen in those days!!!!
I also recall a mention that someone - I think one of the first family - went to NZ and was a horse breeder or something like that. How vague am I ;D
Judith
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:-[ privately as well? which explains why Judith rang a bell. And now, after checking my inbox, I know of course who you are. At least you know that I am really working on the Dwyers as I told you. I will upload what I have so far checked on TribalPages this Sunday - regardless of if I have finished checking or not. I accidentally transferred too many of them when I did a gedcom from my PAF database. :)
I spent ages working on the line of Michael Joseph, only to discover he wasn't who I thought he was, but luckily he turned out to be related, being the son of William Dwyer - I brought William's death certificate last week, to confirm that he was the one to marry Mary Navin. I was so relieved that he was, else I had just wasted nearly three weeks of work on the wrong line. That William, my husband's Patrick, and your Thomas are all brothers, sons of Michael Dwyer and Ellen McCarthy (who lived to 101). Patrick and William were born in Tipperary, Thomas in Melbourne. The usual girls as well, Ellen, Mary, Bridget, Honorah, and another son Michael McCarthy Dwyer who I haven't followed up yet.
Patrick was postmaster at Glenhope in the 1903 and 1909 electoral rolls before moving into Kyneton. He married Catherine Murphy. Their son John went to New Zealand, interested to hear about the horse breeding or whatever, might help find him in NZ, if it was him - he was Thomas' nephew.
They are great those probates and Wills on the PROV site. I've been fishing in them as well, and the NLA is wonderful too. The electoral rolls and the war service records can hold valuable little clues too. I would have never sorted out Michael Joseph without them, and believed that he was Patrick's son. Two of them born in 1861 in Tylden, but only one registered, in Kyneton as just Michael. I am going to have to buy the death certificate of the right Michael now, to confirm his wife, before I go off on another wild goose chase, next time I might not be so lucky.
Don't forget to check my tree on Sunday.
cheers
Christine
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Thanks again Christine - yes it's me!!
I only heard the horse part of the NZ story very second hand from my aunt who said it was only a vague story she'd heard so may have no truth at all, although I know one of them was into horse racing and breeding in Victoria.
They were certainly intoworking for the Government - postmaster/mistresses and rate collector - not the usual occupations for the Irish - pub-keeping sounds more in my lot's line of work LOL
As I've said, I'm in Canberra so if there is anything I can look up at the NLA just let me know.
Judith
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Hi Judith,
We may have some more information on the Dwyer's of Mia Mia. My father is writing a historical record of the district and the occupants. He has asked me to contact you to see if you are willing to communicate with him. Unfortunately he does not have access to internet or the computer. (He is very diligently typing out his notes using an old typewriter). He seems to think that he may be able to fill in some of the gaps for you and that wondered if you could do same for him.
Regards
Mia Mia Girl
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Just to add, he was born and bred in Mia Mia, knows most of the stories of the area including Heathcote, Redesdale, Glenhope etc. and remembers a lot of the original families in the area.
cheers
MiaMia Girl
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Hi there Mia Mia girl - and a big welcome to Rootschat
Would love to help your dad but I know very little except through records. Unfortunately my dad's family are all deceased now so there is no-one left with first-hand knowledge. My father's immediate family moved from Heathcote to Richmond (Melbourne) in the late 1920s as there was better work t be found in Melbourne. However, as his father - Richard Charles DWYER seems to have been a Rate Collector I'm not sure why he left his job in Heathcote.
If ChristineR, who is also on this thread, is still contactable she has really good information about the early days as she is still in the area (or was when I was last in contact with her).
I'll PM you my email and if I can help at all please ask!
Judith
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Hello Mia Mia girl,
I'm the ChristineR mentioned by judb. I had to come to Rootschat today to check on a private message (been so long since I have been here that I had to ask for a new password!). So, I thought I would browse a bit and checked out the 'new replies' key at the top of the page. So, I see your post.
My husband (who is the Dwyer relative) and I have been in the area since 1990. The only knowledge we have is from what I have learned through my family history research. We have no family stories of the Dwyers.
If you would like to PM me your email address I will send you an invitation to my Tribal Pages website. There, you can find absolutely everything I know about the Dwyers but would never be able to remember without looking at the notes! The dates and family structures might help prompt your father's memories about people too. If you want copies of birth, death, marriage certificates referred to in the notes I am happy to do that.
I've often wondered if the Dwyers around here were from the same lines. :)
ChristineR
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Hi ChristineR ;D
Nice to see you on the board ;D
Judith and Mia Mia girl....I wonder if you have looked at all the DWYER mentions in the
McIvor Times and Rodney Advertiser [Heathcote] 1863-1918 which has been digitised. I don't think it was online when I attempted to help you previously.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0ykj/
Cheers :)
Cando
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Hello there Christine. Nice to catch up with you again. :)
Thanks, Cando - I hope I've managed to catch up with all of those newspaper reports. Having the Rodney and McIvor Times online has been great. I think I've got almost all that I need about the Dwyers now. They weren't very noteworthy except for the Racing Club!
Cheers, Judith
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Hi, Just came across this site. I am Ellen Dwyer (Linklater)
youngest grandaughter. Honora called Kit never married. She was the post mistress at Mia Mia until her death in 1946 just before I was born. I have the family bible with all the births deaths etc originally entered by Kit.
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Hello Ellen
So nice to 'meet' you!
You need to make 3 posts before we can use the Private Message system on Rootschat, so 2 more should do it.
You have probably figured out that my father, Thomas James DWYER, was Kit's nephew. My father's parents Richard Charles and Winifred (nee Ferguson) DWYER moved to Melbourne in the late 1920s so that there was not as much contact with the Mia Mia families.
I would love to have a photocopy of the handwriting in the bible that you have. I note that Probate for Kit's estate was granted to Mary Margaret LINKLATER so I guess that was your mother?
I live in Canberra now and I should do a proper road trip in Victoria - just never seems the right time! The three children of Richard Charles DWYER have died now and they seem to have had little contact with any other DWYERs although they did with the Fergusons (RCD's wife's family)
I have Kit's death as 1945 - about a month before I was born.
Would love to hear from you. Judith
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Welcome Phena,
As I think Judb is aware of I live in Lancefield and I work up the Burke and Wills track on the way to Mia Mia.
I have been following this thread because I am interested in local history as well as family history. As far as I can tell there isn't much left at Mia Mia, but if you need someone on the ground locally to do anything like take photos or troll through local records, please let me know.
Luv Ted
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Hi Judith,
I live in Queanbeyan so we could meet for coffee and I could bring the bible. Mia Mia is having a book published at the end of this year. I gave them copies of some photos including your grandfather.
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Oh wow, Phena, that would be wonderful. Would love to see the Bible. Will PM you.
Hi there Tedscout, thanks for your kind offer. I'll let you know if there is anything I need :)
I'm sure you would have seen this reference to Burke and Wills at Mia Mia
Description of Burke and Wills staying at Mia Mia Inn, including a description of where to find the remains of the Inn today
http://burkeandwills.slv.vic.gov.au/gpx/ga2504
Cheers, Judith
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Hi Judith,
Thank you for the link. The winery with The Dig Tree range of wines is owned by friends of ours. In fact My husband used to work for them, and we often go and have a taste or two on a Sunday.
Cheers, Ted
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Hello everyone in this thread.
I picked up the new Mia Mia history book at my local library yesterday. It is an excellent publication. Congratulations to all those in the Mia Mia community who took part in compiling all that precious information.
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I spent ages working on the line of Michael Joseph, only to discover he wasn't who I thought he was, but luckily he turned out to be related, being the son of William Dwyer - I brought William's death certificate last week, to confirm that he was the one to marry Mary Navin. I was so relieved that he was, else I had just wasted nearly three weeks of work on the wrong line. That William, my husband's Patrick, and your Thomas are all brothers, sons of Michael Dwyer and Ellen McCarthy (who lived to 101). Patrick and William were born in Tipperary, Thomas in Melbourne. The usual girls as well, Ellen, Mary, Bridget, Honorah, and another son Michael McCarthy Dwyer who I haven't followed up yet.
Hi, This is an earlier post but a name caught my attention. Mary Navin, and the area is similiar to where my ancestor Honorah Navin lived. She arrived on the Eliza Caroline, as an Irish famine orphan in 1850. She married Christopher Montgomerie who was a timber miller and worked in the Kyneton, Bendigo area. Just wondering if Mary Navin and Honorah Navin were related?
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Hi. Thomas Dwyer who was born in Australia was my Father's grandfather. My grandmother Ellen was his eldest daughter. They lived with Thomas as Ellen was a widow with 6 children. My Father remembered his great grandmother and her dying at 101. My uncle owned the family farm until his death in 1970s. The farmhouse still stands.
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... I brought William's death certificate last week, to confirm that he was the one to marry Mary Navin...
Hi, This is an earlier post but a name caught my attention. Mary Navin, and the area is similiar to where my ancestor Honorah Navin lived. She arrived on the Eliza Caroline, as an Irish famine orphan in 1850. She married Christopher Montgomerie who was a timber miller and worked in the Kyneton, Bendigo area. Just wondering if Mary Navin and Honorah Navin were related?
It feels like 100 years since I've been in this part of my husband's tree! I didn't do any research on the Navin line, nor did I transcribe the marriage into my online tree, so the details aren't handy. In 1860, she was married as Mary Nevins to William Dwyer and, on her death, her parents were named as Michael Navin and Margaret Connors. Mary was born about 1839 in Tipperary. Sorry I can't be more help.
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Hi. Thomas Dwyer who was born in Australia was my Father's grandfather. My grandmother Ellen was his eldest daughter. They lived with Thomas as Ellen was a widow with 6 children. My Father remembered his great grandmother and her dying at 101. My uncle owned the family farm until his death in 1970s. The farmhouse still stands.
I never did find out anything about that Thomas Dwyer, the name was just too common and I'd already spent too much on certificates. I haven't been in this part of my husband's tree for an age. Is this the one born about 1868 to William Dwyer and Mary Navin? All I have is that he died before 1906, since he was marked as dead on his father's death certificate. I'd love to know who he married and when he died. It's beaut that the family farmhouse still stands.
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Thanks Christine, It was worth a try.
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Hello melink and welcome to R'chat.
You and I are distant cousins. And I'm just trying to figure it out - and hope I've got this right
I have Michael (1802-1884) and Ellen (1804-1905) DWYER who were your father's great-grandparents.
Their son Thomas DWYER (1849-1916) is your father's grandfather. This Thomas was married twice, firstly to Margaret MADDEN then to Mary MAHER.
So is it Ellen LINKLATER who is your father's mother (your grandmother)?
I am descended from the second marriage of Thomas - through his son Richard Charles DWYER who was my father's father - ie my grandfather - my father was Thomas James DWYER which is the same name as his uncle. Too many Thomases!!
Cheers, Judith
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Hi. Judith is correct. Her father and my father were first cousins, but my father as the eldest grandchild was close in age to his younger uncles. Thomas Dwyer was the youngest of the immigrant family and was born in Australia aboit 1842. Hr died in Mia Mia in 1916. The book "Mia Mia the Pace and its People" is a good source for some of the family history.
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That Mia Mia book certainly has some interesting family history. I went to the launch of it a couple of years ago and was lucky enough to be able to go into the old house. My grandfather (Richard Charles DWYER) lived in Heathcote after his marriage to Winifred Victoria FERGUSON whose father and grandfather owned a store in Heathcote. They moved to Melbourne in the 1930s though.
I have read in the book the story that Michael DWYER had actually visited Tasmania with his sister before he married Ellen and emigrated to Victoria. I have never been able to find any records for this earlier trip.
Here's the R'chat thread I started re this:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=707517.msg5506289#msg5506289
Judith