RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: Lisajj on Thursday 07 January 10 20:15 GMT (UK)
-
Hi everyone
I seem to have confused people with my last posting, so I thought I'd just tell the WHOLE thing and then see if anyone can help.
It starts with EDWARD WHITEBREAD HOLTAWAY. The first 'apperance' of this man is when he married JEMIMA ELIZA DRANE ON 14 Sept 1886. On the marriage cert, one of the witnesses is GEORGE WHITEBREAD. And his father is named as WILLIAM HOLTAWAY. According to the age stated by Edward on the cert and also on every census after that, he should have been born in 1859. He also states on every census ('91, '01 & '11) that he was born in Islington. So far we have NOT been able to find a birth for him. He should appear on the 1861 census, but the only candidate is an EDWARD WHITEBREAD, who was a visitor at the home of THOMAS AND ELNER WHITEBREAD, along with another boy GEORGE WHITEBREAD (this is why I mentioned him after the marriage cert). On the 1871 census, I found a HOLTAWAY family in London. The head is William, wife is Mary, son also WILLIAM and his wife ELEANOR (born West Hanningfield) and their son EDWARD (W/N/R?) HOLTAWAY born in Islington. On the 1911 census he is living in Billericay with his two aunts, MATILDA GREEN and LOUISA TAYLOR. both born in West Hanningfield. Both ladies were WHITEBREAD before they were married and also I found them on them 1841 census with THOMAS WHITEBREAD (seems to be the same one as 1861 census). Thomas & Eleanor (Elner) Whitebread had several children born between 1824 - 1838: Sarah, Alfred, William, Lucy, Louisa, Matilda, Mary, Eleanor and John. So far I can't find a marriage between William Holtaway and Eleanor Whitebread (or any marriage between any people of those surnames) I can't find a birth of Edward, so don't know who his mother was.
Edward & Jemima had 4 children (that we know of) Amy, Nora Bessie, Leonard and Harold. Nora married George Johnson and had one daughter (my partners mother). Leonard married and had one son, Leonard T E, who never married and as far as we know didn't have any children. He died in 1995. Harold married Minnie Oxley. He died in 1974 and didn't have any children. We think Amy went to Canada. And as far as we know Leonard T E Holtaway was the last family member to hold the family bible.
Jemima Eliza DRANE b. 1866 (parents Thomas Drane and Sophia Fowler). She had two brothers, Samuel and Charles (b.1860, moved to Canada after his wife died, died 1934) and a sister Emily. We know nothing of Samuel or of Emily. Charles married Sarah Whitebread (not the same Sarah as above, but possibly related) and they had several children: Emily (b.1882 went to Canada with her father), Maude (b.1887), Ada (b.1889), Bertha (b.1891), Daisy (b.1897), Lillian (b.1898 married Nora Bessie's husband after Nora died during child birth and raised the daughter) and Fred (b.1900 and also went to Canada with his father). On the 1911 census Lillian and Daisy were in North Surrey Industrial School. We don't know what happened to Maude or Ada. Bertha married Arthur Bell and they had a daughter Marjorie. Daisy married Fred Baker and they had two children.
My MAIN question is WHO were the parents of Edward Whitebread Holtaway? Does anyone know or can anyone else work it out?
Please note that Holtaway is transcribed as HOLLOWAY a lot of the time, especially on ancestry.
Confused??? If anyone can help me figure this one out then I will happily pass on my "Miss Marple" hat!
Lisa :-)
-
Just a thought, did Leonard from Canvey leave a will, if so whoever benefited should have the bible, it would be worth checking up to find if he did
Louisa Maud
-
Well, I can find Amy:
http://vitalstats.gov.mb.ca/Query.php
- married in Manitoba in 1912 to Edward Keresman.
What was the occupation of William Holtaway given as on Edward's marriage certificate, and does it match with the ones you found in the 1871 census?
-
Hi,
Not sure if this helps, but here's Leonard Whitebread Holtaway, b circa 1892, taking up a clerical job at the National Gallery in 1932: http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/33853/pages/5151 (near top of column 1).
Regards
Rob
-
It's a long shot but have you looked at
Birth June Q 1859
Edward Bishop Whitbread
Islington 1b 179
-
Having looked at the 1861 census you mention I would go with George Whitebread 7 and Edward 2 being the Grandchildren of Thomas & Eleanor
George's birth ref is
June Q 1854
George Whitebread
Chelmsford 4a 123
this at least would give an idea of parentage
-
MARR 14/09/1886
ST Anns Tottenham
Edward Whitebreak 27 bat clerk 20 looks like Suffield Road clerk father William traveller
to
Jemima Eliza Drane 21 spin 7 Walpole Terr father Thomas Dairy man
witnesses
George Whitebread
Francis Brice
? Garner
W. Holtaway
I hope this clarifies a few points
Louisa Maud
-
Hmm. There is a William Bindon Holtaway who d. Pancras in 1900 aged 67.
He is probably the same as William B. Holtaway listed in 1881 aged 49, not married.
I can see them in the 1871 census, looks like "Holloway"; William E, 70, commercial traveller b. Waffham Norfolk, Mary Ann, 70, b. Marcross Devonshire, William B, 29, dealer in athletic goods, b. Marylebone, Elleanor, 32, b. West Hanningfield as you said, "grandson", Edward B, 12, b. Islington.
It is likely that his parents were "William Holtaway" and "Eleanor Whitebread" and he is the one on the 1871 census, but that they never married. I can't find the Holtaways on the 1861 census but some parts of London are missing.
For a birth certificate, how about the "Edward Bishop Whitbread" b. Islington Jun 1859 quarter, 1b/179 ?
-
2 minds think alike Jorose, I am sure he is connected, I would certainly purchase that cert even if it eliminates them
Louisa Maud
-
My final thoughts on this after going round and round in circles for what seems hours and hours is
George and Edward shown with grandparents Whitebread 1861 are sons of Eleanor junior, is it possible these 2 young boys were born out of wedlock, surnamed Whitebread at the time of registration, then Eleanor met Mr Holtaway and lived with him, of course he might well be their father but until a cert is purchased we will never know, where is Eleanor junior on 1861?
Louisa Maud
-
Thanks everyone!
On the marriage cert of Edward & Jemima, Edwards father's occupation is traveller. We know that there were a few travelling salesmen in the family.
I cannot find Eleanor junior anywhere on the 1861 census.
We have thought about getting the birth cert for Edward Bishop Whitebread, but wanted to try and exhaust every other avenue first!
I agree with you Louisa Maude, I think Edward was born out of wedlock and that Eleanor is his mother and she was never married to Mr Holtaway. I'm not sure if George is his brother or cousin.
Going to speak to my partners mother again this weekend to see if any of this jogs her memory.
I am spent months of trying to figure this out! I think a job for this weekend will be to order that birth cert for Edward Bishop.
thanks again
Lisa
-
Hello again
I did find 1 Whitebread on 1861, right age, right place of birth, single but wrong christian name initial, she was in Charing Cross hospital for accidents and general illness, I am sure it isn't her but you can have the reference to double check yourself, I did not put a name in the search, just year of birth plus and minus 2 years, only included place of birth and this was the only one who came up
RG9/57 FOLIO 57 PAGE 5 NO 10 ON PAGE, she seems to be a daughter of the person above on same page but there is only 5 years between them
A good idea to purchase the cert for Edward Bishop Whitebread even if it is to eliminate him
Was a baptism for George ever found?
I am sure all those who have had an impute would like to know the outcome, it is intriguing to say the least
LM
-
I've already posted the probable births for George and Edward Bishop Whitbread.
-
I am going to order Edward Bishop Whitebreads birth certificate today, so once it arrives I'll let you know what it says!
I am very grateful to all of you who have had some imput in this one. Its driving us all bonkers! My other half can't get his head around it at all! Last night his mother pulled an old book off the shelf that her Uncle Len gave her (father of Leonard T E Holtaway) and it was all about Queen Victoria, published around 1925 I think. Inside the front cover is written E W Holtaway 1887. Now we know it wasn't written in 1887 as the book was published until much later. So I'm trying to work out why 1887 was significant....these Holtaways! Well it keeps me out of trouble anyway!
:-)
-
Hi the only thing coming up in 1887 seems to be the birth of Amy Whitebread Holtaway. Perhaps it was AW and not EW?
Jennifer
-
Amy is the daughter of Edward and Jemima who married in 1886
Edward died in 1927
Can't see what 1887 means at the moment
LM
-
OK, the birth certificate for Edward Bishop Whitbread has arrived.....
...15 March 1859
7 Charlotte Street (???)
Edward Bishop
(NO FATHER)
Mother - Ellen Whitbread
(NO FATHER OCC)
Informant: Ellen Whitbread, 7 Charlotte Street, Ca....... Road
20 April 1859
So, I don't know if its him or not. Going to see if I can find an Edward Bishop Whitbread anywhere else and also Ellen Whitbread.
-
I've just found Ellen Whitbread on the 1861 census living at 7 Charlotte Street, as a lodger with the occupation as housekeeper. Born in Essex around 1836. Edward isn't there. Haven't found a death for Edward either. I do have an Edward Whitbread on the 1861 with Thomas and Eleanor(Elner) in Great Baddow. Ellen doesn't appear on the 1881.
-
Isn't he down as grandson to the family on 1861 in Gt Baddow, it looks as if this child was born out of wedlock
LM
-
Hi, I just found this thread through Google and so have joined RootsChat :).
I think there is little doubt that Edward Bishop Whitbread is the same person as Edward Whitebread Holtaway. Everything points in that direction. The Edward Whitbread b. Islington in 1857 is accounted for in another family.
"Bishop" is presumably the name of the reputed father although just possibly a family name from her mother's side (Eleanor Fogg). The 1861 census entry for Ellen Whitbread must refer to Eleanor (there is no other Ellen Whitbread who could account for her). Being in service, she was probably not allowed to keep her child with her, which is why we find Edward with his grandparents. She probably used the name Ellen at that time, rather than Eleanor, hence that name is on Edward's birth certificate, and her employers gave that name for the census. Eleanor possibly met William Holtaway only during the 1860s. Maybe she was his housekeeper and became his common law wife, without actually marrying him.
George Whitebread is probably not Eleanor's child, but one of her sister's (or possibly a brother). The birth certificate will obviously clarify that question.
You might like to join the Whitebread and Whitbread One Name Study Group on GenealogWise, where you will find this family in my Essex family tree #6 (ESS_06). Details are given there back to the late 17th century and it almost certainly links to another tree stretching back to the mid 15th century
http://www.genealogywise.com/group/whitebread_whitbread_ONS
Steven W
-
thanks - I was thinking along the same lines as Steven.
How do I see your Essex family tree? Do I need to join the guild of one names studies or is it on your page?