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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: timbo777 on Tuesday 05 January 10 10:34 GMT (UK)
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Hello
I have a relative Alice Selina Forster, she married Joseph Ingram Forster in Tynemouth on 27 Feb 1881
Alice Selina (AS) states her father as George Goddard - Mariner, and her age as 22 on the wedding certificate (I have the original)
Various census show place of birth as Chelsea London when she is living in Westoe Durham with her husband and children
Therefore she was born approx 1859 in Chelsea
BDM show a Alice Selina Goddard born 22 Mar 1858 in Chelsea
Only problem is, her father is Thomas March Goddard .. not George
Thomas March Goddard appears to remarry again in Chelsea Dec 1858
A George Goddard has a daughter Alice in 30 Mar 1859 in Bishopsgate City of London
So, who is Alice Selina Goddards father, George or Thomas
I am very confused, anh help or guidance would be appreciated
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Hi Timbo,
The one with father George seems to be still unmarried in 1881:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/07s9/
RG11/370 73 6
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what a good spot!
Many thanks for that. So now I have to try and work out why the one birth certificate I have for Alice Selina states father Thomas, when at time of marriage he becomes George..
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Hi Timbo and welcome to RootsChat
Information on a birth certificate is usually given by a parent so is likely to be accurate (but not definitley so :))
Perhaps Thomas preferred to be called George for some reason and that's the name Alice put on her marriage details. Presumably he's not shown as a witness and may not even have been present if he was a mariner
Thomas March Goddard appears to remarry again in Chelsea Dec 1858
What makes you think he was marrying again? BTW on A***y he is shown as Marsh not March (and the original looks like Marsh)
Linda
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Hi Linda
Marsh makes more sense. I have just (in the last 5 mins) found a Confirmation card which states that she was baptised at St Lukes Chelsea, but confirmed in St Hilda's Church South Shileds. The St Lukes Church ties up with the birth certificate. It is all starting to make sense. So, Alice Selina moved to South Shields by 1878 from Chelsea.
On Alice Selina Goddards birth certificate, her mother was Louisa Maidment. I can't find that name connecting to Thomas Marsh Goddard in the marriage in Dec 1858, hence I assumed that it was a second marriage
I think I can find Alice living with Louisa Goddard and a couple of Maidment sisters in 1861, so maybe Thomas/George was away then
I will have a dig in the 1871/81 census and see what I can find out
Cheers Tim
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There were banns read at St Marys Battersea for a marriage between Thomas Marsh Goddard and Louisa Maidment on
26 Sep 1858, 3 Oct 1858 and 10 Oct 1858
Around the same time as the Thomas Marsh Goddard / Sarah Ellis Edwards marriage!
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well, still confusing
Could there be 2 Thomas Marsh Goddards? Seems quite a coincidence
Would it be usual to get married aftert he first child? Maybe they couldn't organise things before the baby was born?
Or, the banns were read, but they didn't get married! Can't find any reference to the wedding on FreeBDM or anywhere else
Many thanks for your assistance, I will hunt for the reference to the banns
Cheers Tim
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Hi
Thomas Marsh Goddard Full Age Bachelor Butcher St Luke Chelsea Thomas Goddard Lawyer
Sarah Ellis Edwards Full Age Spinster St Luke Chelsea William Edwards Shoemaker
By licence. Both signed
Witnesses Frances May Baines, Thomas and Susannah Lester
6th August 1826 St Mary Islington
Thomas Marsh Goddard parents Thomas Goddard and Mary Ann, Cumberland Row, father's occupation Gentleman
Until the second half of the C20th there was no comprehensive systems in place to check that what someone said on their marriage and on the registering of a birth was completely factually correct. Therefore a legitimate birth certificate is absolutely no proof of a legitimate birth. I know a man with 5 siblings all born in the 1930s and all registered legitimately. Their mother, possibly with their father registered the births and bluffed it out with the registrar. The couple were living as a married couple but never married.
In this case it looks as if pregnant Louisa never made it to the altar and Thomas decided on Sarah instead. The confusion on the marriage certificate may be that Louisa did in fact marry later a George who was a mariner or else Alice just came up with the details of a near male relative because she knew little or nothing about her genetic father.
Regards
Valda
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Hi
The Sydney Morning Herald 12th September 1889
August 21st at Markwell's Cottages, Brisbane
Mr Thomas Marsh Goddard aged 64
Regards
Valda
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Hi
Louisa gives married on the census for propriety's sake
1861 census RG9 31 folio 123
1 Adelaide Terrace
Louisa Godard 28 Married Dressmaker Chelsea Middlesex
Susan Maidment 20 Unmarried Lodger Needlewoman Chelsea Middlesex
Jane Maidment 23 Unmarried Lodger Dressmaker Chelsea Middlesex
Alice Godard 3 Daughter Chelsea Middlesex
1851 census HO107 15?? folio 311
4 North Avenue St James Clerkenwell
Louisa Maidment 21 Daughter Vauxhall Surrey
George Maidment 17 Son Glover Chelsea Middlesex
Sarah Maidment 13 Daughter Chelsea Middlesex
Susan Maidment 10 Daughter Chelsea Middlesex
Frederick Maidment 5 Son Chelsea Middlesex
1841 census HO107 688/2 folio 11
53 Camera Square St Luke Chelsea
George Maidment 35 Glover J(ourneyman) not born Middlesex
54 Camera Square
William Maidment 30 Glover J not born Middlesex
Elizabeth Maidment 35 not born Middlesex
George Maidment 7 born Middlesex
Louisa Maidment 12 born Middlesex
Jane Maidment 5 born Middlesex
Sarah Maidment 3 born Middlesex
Susan Maidment 1 born Middlesex
11th November 1866 St Luke Chelsea
Eldred Davy 27 Bachelor Engineer 2A John Street Robert Davy (Deceased) Watchmaker
Louisa Maidment 28 Spinster 30 Markham Street William Maidment Glover Cutter
By Banns. Both signed
Witnesses ? Bennett and Mary H Cromont?
1871 census Eldred and Louisa were in Hackney with two sons but no Alice. Louisa aged 36 and born London. 1881 in Shoreditch with two sons (one aged 8) - aged 45 born Somerset. 1891 census in Tottenham (aged 50 born Essex). 1901 census Eldred was a widower.
Possible death registration
Deaths Mar 1893 Davy Louisa 58 Edmonton 3a 195
Regards
Valda
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Hi
So Thomas Marsh Goddard was a bounder and a cad. Left Louisa and rushed off with Sarah Ellis Edwards.
Then went off to Australia where his eventful life ended in 1889.
Valda and Tati, many thanks for your digging, you have helped considerably. And also many thanks for the info on Louisa, gosh it's raining info now. I have found that George and William are or were both Glovers and came from Yeovil.
All very interesting as I am in Somerset but am an Aussie! Connections all round.
Cheers Tim
PS If I can't find your references I may come back for a bit of guidance...
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I have identified William Maidment's first wife as Elizabeth Frampton. I think her brother was living next door (John Frampton) in the 1841 census. The Frampton Family comes from Dorset/Someset, and William Maidment comes from Yeovil.
William Maidment's second wife is called Selina, which fits as William's granddaughter is Alice Selina Goddard
I cannot find any siblings of Thomas Goddard other than Thomas Marsh Goddard. Nor Bumsteds for that matter, but I will keep searching. Not sure whether they are London based or moved in from elsewhere
One of the witnesses at Thomas Goddards wedding was Josiah Marsh, maybe his first wife was a Marsh...
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Hi
Prerogative Court of Canterbury will
Will of Josiah Marsh, Stock Broker of Islington , Middlesex
Date 26 May 1831
Catalogue reference PROB 11/1785
Regards
Valda
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Thanks Valda
I have now found a small typwewriiten history of the family from my father(now deceased) which states that Capt George Goddard was lost at sea in a gale off Tristan da Cunha, which sounds very interesting. So maybe Thomas Marsh Goddard had a brother George. The typewritten note states that after the loss of George, Alice Selina had to go into Service, which was in South Shields and it was through the church that she met her husband Joseph Ingtram Forster. Gets more and more interesting
Regards Tim
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Hi
Not sure why the loss of Captain George Goddard, if he existed, would cause the illegitimate daughter of Thomas March/Marsh Goddard, a butcher, who seems to have left for Australia shortly after his marriage (since he doesn't appear on the 1861 census) effect Alice Selina the illegitimate daughter, who may have for proprietory's sake made up some of her background to cover her illegitimate beginnings in London. On her marriage she states her father was called George and was a mariner. It is very convenient to have long lost mariner fathers if you don't want your origins checked. More significant might be Alice's mother's marriage in 1866. There is no evidence Alice was absorbed into her mother's new family or if she was stayed there very long before she was expected to leave and start work as a servant. However if you were living in London you might expect, with plenty of work for servant girls, you would work there not remove all the way to the north east. If however you were placed into the poor law system you could be placed almost anywhere and it may be before her mother remarried Alice went into the workhouse with or without her mother.
As yet there doesn't seem evidence that the Goddard family were paying maintence for the child or even acknowledged her.
What does the tree say about Alice's mother?
Searching Queensland's online BMDs gives this information
Reg # Given Names Surname Father's Name Mother's Name
1889/22260 Thomas March Goddard Thomas Goddard Mary Ann Bunstead
The certificate itself might also state how long Thomas had been in Australia and his children and confirms the marriage of his parents to be the correct marriage.
Regards
Valda
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Hi Valda
I think your right, George Goddard does not seem to exist at all. I know nothing about the Poor Law System, so I will look into that, this research gets more and more interesting. Do Poor Law Records exist?
It certainly seems right that she formed no part of her mothers new life. Louisa Maidment/Davy seems to get more and more confused regarding her age and where she was born, disturbingly so.
"What does the tree say about Alice's mother?" - What does this statement mean, feel free to send me a message if the meaning is cryptic ;-)
Cheers Tim
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Sarah Ellis Edwards is in my tree and married Thomas Marsh Goddard in 1858. Sarah previously had a child in 1856 named Louisa (Chapman) Edwards. During the 1851 Thomas is listed as 'In the Navy' and on his mc in 1858 he's shown as a Butcher. I believe Thomas was an only child and his father was a Lawyer.
Thomas neither Sarah are on the 1861 census but Sarah is on the 1871 working for her future husband Narborough Balls whom she married in 1893 (Narborough is also missing from the '61). Presumably Sarah and Narborough married a few years after Thomas Marsh Goddard died. Is there proof of Thomas Marsh Goddard's death in Australia and specific dates ?
I also found a marriage of a Thomas Goddard Ball, b. 1858, and the certs show his father as Narborough Ball. This could possibly the son of Thomas Marsh Goddard.
Its a fascinating story that's now coming together.
Julie
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Hi
Welcome to Rootschat
You can search the Queensland BMDs here and obtain a copy of the death certificate
http://www.justice.qld.gov.au/justice-services/births-deaths-and-marriages
Reg Given Names Surname Father's Name Mother's Name
1889/B22260 Thomas March Goddard Thomas Goddard Mary Ann Bunstead
There seems no evidence of a Bunstead/Goddard marriage
I can't see a Thomas Goddard born circa 1826 Islington/London as a seaman on the 1851 census.
Areas of the 1861 census are missing from the London area including around Westminster
The details of the marriage of Thomas Goddard Ball
1st August 1882 St James, Paddington
Thomas Goddard Ball 24 Bachelor Saddler 107 Circesnter Street Narborough Ball Oilman
Eliza Gridley 22 Spinster 65 Westbourne Grove George Gridley Carpenter
Both signed
Witnesses Lewis Fielder and Sarah Giles
On the 1891 census Thomas Goddard Ball gives his birthplace as Chelsea and on the 1901 census Fulham. On the 1881 census it is just London.
Births Jun 1858 Goddard Thomas Chelsea 1a 163
The birth certificate will confirm who Thomas' father was.
Regards
Valda