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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Dumfriesshire => Topic started by: mmparker on Tuesday 05 January 10 06:04 GMT (UK)
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My g g grandmother, Janet Clark, was born in Locharbriggs ca 1835. Does anyone know if there is a directory that might mention the families living in the area? I checked the OPR for Dumfries and didn't see anyone who I thought fit into the information that I have. I did find the following family in the 1841 census and it could be her family.
1841 Census of Scotland Locharbriggs 7 June, 1841:
Clark, Thomas (18) mason apprentice
Clark, Jean, (25)
Clark, Janet (7)
Clark, Isabella (5)
All were born in Scotland.
It looks like Jean could be the Mother of Janet and Isabella but who is Thomas? Perhaps he is the brother of Jean? If so does that mean she is not married since they have the same surname? I suppose Jean could have been married and had 2 children and then married Thomas. Perhas they made an error and his age should be 28. A directory might help.
I had read that they rounded off the ages in the 1841 census but this does not appear to be the case. Does anyone have any suggestions about the relationships in this family? Thank you.
Martha Parker
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Hi Martha
Welcome to Rootschat :)
Given Thomas's age, it is not likely that he would be Janet or Isabella's father. Jean is quite young but could be between 25-29 and therefore possibly the girls' mother.
I've not found any definite baptisms for Janet or Isabella in the Dumfries parish records.
Have you managed to trace the family forward to any other censuses? This might help to find marriage/death records for them which could then be used to establish the family relationships.
I've not got any definite hits at the moment on the 1851, although there is a possibility for Thomas in Edinburgh - aged 28, b. Dumfries, a mason journeyman and a lodger at 28/2 Tobago Street. (Parish 685/2 ED 51a Page 13).
Could you give more details of Janet, please? For example where, when and who she married, names and birthdates of her children,when and where she died, etc. This would help find her parents' names and identify the family group.
Regards
Gadget
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Hi Martha and Gadget
The 1851 census from http://www.dgcommunity.net/historicalindexes/census.aspx lists the following:
Name: CLARK , Janet
Address: High Street, Crown Inn(821)
Parish: Dumfries
Relationship: household of Euphemia Grierson
Marital Status: unmarried
Occupation: SERVANT house
Age: 18
Born: born Dumfries Dms
Household No: 7/35
This is the only close match with Janet Clark on the Dumfries 1851 census site,
Wul
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hi Wul
I saw that one and wasn't too sure but it might be :)
There's a poss for Isabella as well.
By the way, she's not the one who married James Richardson
Gadget
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Hi again
I've found an interesting possiblility for Isabella:
Dumfries parish records
4th June 1836 Isabella , natural daughter of Isabella Clark (deceased) John Clark, her brother, Sponsor
It might not been her but it is possible as there is only one Isabella Clark of the correct age on the 1841 in the Dumfries parish.
Gadget
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Thank you Gadget and thank you Wul,
I have traced the family in all the census records and all the birth, marriage and death records and the OPRs. Wul, I believe that the Janet Clark in the 1851 census who is listed as "servant" must be my great -great grandmother. I have thought about it for years and she is the only one it could possibly be. Gadget, you asked about the other census records. In the 1861 census Janet Clark is listed with her husband Thomas McBride and their children John (5), Grace (3) and Arthur (1) in Maxwelltown.
In 1871 they were living in New Abbey and they have 3 more sons William, Thomas and Robert. And in the 1881 census they are on Burnfoot road in the Parish of New Abbey and they now have a daughter Bridget. In this census Janet is listed as having been born in Locharbriggs. And in the 1891 census an additional Janet McBride (my grandmother) is listed. This Janet is the daughter of Grace McBride (my great grandmother) who is still living with her parents in Carsethorn. Janet, the granddaughter, was baptised at Sweetheart Abbey. In the 1901 census the elder Janet Clark McBride is listed with her daughter Bridget and son William and granddaughter Janet McBride. Thomas McBride, the husband, died in 1893 and Grace McBride died in 1896. In 1902 Janet, Bridget and 12 year old Janet were passengers on the Saxonia to Boston and they went to live in Chicago where the elder Janet's sons Thomas, Arthur and Robert were living. John, the eldest son, had died in Chicago in 1893.
I have the baptism or birth records for the children of Thomas McBride and Janet Clark and Locharbriggs is mentioned as the birthplace of Janet Clark on some of them. I do NOT have the marriage of Thomas McBride and Janet Clark and I have looked for it. I suspect part of the problem is that he was Catholic and she was not. On her children's birth records she gives different dates for the marriage but they all indicate that it took place in Dumfries.
Thomas McBride (Janet's husband) immigrated from Co Tyrone to Dumfries some time before 1851.
Gadget, you mentioned the baptism of Isabella Clark. In my notes I show I had noted that Isabella was the illegitimate daughter of Isabella Clark who had died before the baptism of her daughter and her brother John Clark stood sponsor at the baptism. Born 24 Mar 1836.
Now to get back to Locharbriggs... I saw in the 1841 census another family of Clarks (James, Mary and family) living there and I wondered if Thomas, Jean, Janet and Isabella could have been their children. It was the only other Clark family that I found in the area. One marriage I found that may pertain to John, the son of James and Mary, who were living in Locharbriggs in 1841:
12 Jul 1855
John Clark (26) b. Currestaves, Troqueer Accountant f= Jas Clark farmer m=Mary Bell
b.23 Mar 1829 Locharbriggs
Sarah Ann Gibson sp Duncow, Kirkmahoe f=John Erksine Gibson (deceased) m=Sarah Kirkpatrick
m. at W Duncow p of Kirkmahoe
David Hogg, minister
Incidentally the names Bridget, Arthur and Thomas come from the McBride side of the family. I have no idea where the names Grace, William, Robert and John come from.
Lastly I wanted to comment on the Thomas Clark in the 1851 Edinburgh census. Yes, I think he may have been from the Locharbrigg Clark family.
I think I have run out of room. Thank you Gadget and Wul for your input. I appreciate your suggestions.
Martha Parker
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This attachment links two Locharbrigg families together. If these two families also link to Janet and Thomas Clark who were in the 1841 census in Locharbriggs then I will know why my g. great grandmother was named Grace. And I would unerstand why Janet Clark McBride named her first son John William. Unfortunately the memorial does not mention Janet, Thomas, Jean or the Isabella in the 1841 census. There is an earlier Isabella mentioned. It does seem likely that all three Clark families living in Locharbriggs were related.
If the attachment does not come through I will type it in my next message if you are interested. I would be interested if you think all three families were related.
Thank you.
Martha Parker
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Hello Martha
I've been trying to follow up Thomas and Isabella but I've not got anything conclusive at the moment.
I'm wondering if it might be worth you contacting the Dumfries & Galloway FHS http://www.dgfhs.org.uk/ They were very helpful when I started to research by D & G lines .
I'll try and follow some of those mentioned on the 2 MIs that you've put up but it will be a while though as I'm coming to a busy period in my work.
Gadget
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Hi Martha
You would be better typing in the memorial details as the image you have posted may have copyright issues, something I have already mistakenly done!
Wul
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Wul, I never thought about copyright issues. If possible please remove the page and I will type in the the info pertaining to the Clark family. I am so sorry that I copied this to your site.
Martha Parker
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Gadget,
Thanks for your suggestion regarding the Dumfries Family History Society. I was a member for many years. I think I am going to concentrate on linking the two Clark families in the 1841 Locharbriggs census. I will also follow up on Thomas. You were kind to offer to do this but I don't expect you to do this and I have the time. Thank you for your offer and thanks for all your help. Martha Parker
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Wul, I never thought about copyright issues. If possible please remove the page and I will type in the the info pertaining to the Clark family. I am so sorry that I copied this to your site.
Martha Parker
Hi Martha
You can remove the image yourself and then type in the information or the request the local moderator, Boongie Pam, to remove it for you.
It's not my site and you have nothing to be sorry for as it's an easy mistake to make, it's just copyright infringement can be a big issue.
Wul
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Thanks Wul,
Here are the Clarks who were in Locharbriggs 1800-1841.
Gilbert Clark (1769-1827) md Grace Wilson (1775-1832) He was a mason
1. John Clark (1800-1808)
2. Joseph Clark (1805-1835)
3. Isabella Clark (1816-1836)
4. William Clark (1820-1858) Have his death record
There was also a daughter who married John Dunwoodie.
1841 Census of Scotland Locharbriggs Parish: ED: 4A; Page: 6; Line: 1305
Clark, James (45) mason (1796 -8 May 1869) Have his death record.
He is the son of Gilbert Clark (above)
Clark, Mary (46) This is Mary Bell
Clark, Helen (15) 1825-1842 Died at ae 17 Kirkmahoe Memorial
Clark, John (12) 1829-1886 He is in the Dunfries death index in 1886.
All were born in Dumfrieshire, Scotland
Now I have to figure out if the family below is related to the family above:
1841 Census of Scotland Locharbriggs 7 June, 1841
Clark, Thomas (18) mason apprentice
Clark, Jean (25)
Clark, Janet (7)
Clark, Isabella (5)
All born in Dumfrieshire, Scotland
Martha Parker
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Hi Martha
The thing that I see that I didn't see before is this:
3. Isabella Clark (1816-1836)
and:
I've found an interesting possiblility for Isabella:
Dumfries parish records
4th June 1836 Isabella , natural daughter of Isabella Clark (deceased) John Clark, her brother, Sponsor
What was Isabella's full death date from the MI?
Gadget
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Hello Gadget,
Here is part of the information from the Kirkmahoe MI:
#573 is about James Clark and his wife Mary Bell
#574 At the foot of #573. IHO John Clark son to Gilbirt (sic) Clark in Locherbridge wd 15/6/1808 aged 8. Also above Gilbirt Clark wd 18/12/1827 aged 58. Also Grace Wilson his spouse wd 10/9/1832 aged 57. Joseph their son wd 1835 aged 30. Isabella their dr wd 1836 aged 20. William their son wd at Locherbridge Dec 1858 aged 38.
Of course they are not talking about the Isabella that was listed with Thomas, Jean and Janet Clark That Isabella was born ca1836. I wish I could connect the two families.
I have the death record of the above William Clark who died 1858. His b-i-l signed the certificate. It looked like Dunwoodie and I think I have found this family in the 1851-1871 census. If it is the correct family the wife would have been Jane Clark but I don't know if I have the right family. The Jane listed on the census was born in Locharbriggs as were her children but I don't know if her surname was Clark.
I also have the death record of James Clark who was married to Mary Bell. It does state that his father was Gilbert Clark.
Do you know where I can get the rest of the MIs for Kirkmahoe Parish? I want to see if the Dunwoodie/Dinwiddie family is listed there.
If you want to take a look at #573 of the MI just let me know. I didn't include it because I wasn't sure if anyone was interested.
Again, thank you.
Martha Parker
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One other item I just uncovered Gadget. Jane Clark was the wife of John Dinwiddie. I found their son William's baptism and it listed Jane maiden name. Martha Parker
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Hello Gadget,
Here is part of the information from the Kirkmahoe MI:
#573 is about James Clark and his wife Mary Bell
#574 At the foot of #573. IHO John Clark son to Gilbirt (sic) Clark in Locherbridge wd 15/6/1808 aged 8. Also above Gilbirt Clark wd 18/12/1827 aged 58. Also Grace Wilson his spouse wd 10/9/1832 aged 57. Joseph their son wd 1835 aged 30. Isabella their dr wd 1836 aged 20. William their son wd at Locherbridge Dec 1858 aged 38.
Of course they are not talking about the Isabella that was listed with Thomas, Jean and Janet Clark That Isabella was born ca1836. I wish I could connect the two families.
I maybe didn't make myself clear in my last posting. No, they weren't talking about Isabella, possible sister to Janet. I was suggesting that this might well be Isabella mother of Isabella:
4th June 1836 Isabella , natural daughter of Isabella Clark (deceased) John Clark, her brother, Sponsor
If so, this would connect your Janet, via Isabella, then via her mother Isabella, to Gilbert Clark.
What we need to find out is if Gilbert had another son named John (the sponsor) who survived beyond June 1836
Gadget
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Do you know where I can get the rest of the MIs for Kirkmahoe Parish?
Kirkmahoe MIs from Dumfries and Galloway FHS :
http://www.dgfhs.org.uk/dgfhs/pubs/pubs-ndx.htm
Gadget
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Hello Gadget,
There it was staring me in the eye. Yes, indeed, I think that the Isabella living with Thomas and Janet in the 1841 census was the daughter of the Isabella who died in childbirth. I just can't thank you enough for pointing me in the right direction. And to top it off I found the baptism of Janet Clerk (sic) 28 Mar 1814 to Gilbert Clark and Grizzle Wilson. So I think the family looks like this:
Gilbert Clark (1769-18 Dec 1827) Kirkton, Dumfries md 28 Mar 1814 Grace Wilson (1775-10 Sep 1832) d. Kirkton Dumfries Kirkmahoe Churchyard. Her name also spelled Grizzel and Grizzle)
1. James Clark (1796-8 May 1869) m. Mary Bell
2. John Clark (1800-15 June 1808) d. Dumfries
3. Joseph Clark (1805-1835) Kirkton
4. Jane Clark (1809-aft 1861) m. John Dinwiddie
5. Janet Clerk (sic) (28 Mar 1814-) She was listed as Jean in the 1841
census
6. Isabella Clark (1816-1836) Kirkton
7. William Clark (1820-1858) Kirkmahoe MI
8. Thomas Clark (1823-) I am guessing he belongs here.
Now that leaves Janet Clark age 7 who was in the 1841 census. She could be the daughter of any of the sons or daughters but my guess is that she is the daughter of Jean/Janet.
I am rejoining the DGFHS and will also send for the Kirkmahoe booklet as it might have something else on the family. Thanks so very much. This is a great site and everyone has been so helpful. I think I am on the right track. I have been researching this family for a very long time and finally a breakthough. Gadget I am very grateful.
Martha Parker
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Gadget,
One more thing I just discovered tonight:
Thomas Clark (1820-) m. 1 Jun 1860 Jane Dugan St Andrew, Edinburgh, Midlothian Scotland. He was 36 and he was 40. His parents were listed as Gilbert Clark and Grace Wilson. I have been unable to find John Clark and I still don't have a baptism for Janet Clark born 1834 but I am certain they all belong to the same family. Thanks.
Martha Parker
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My great grandfather, John McClure was married to a Janet Clark, born about 1832 in Dumfries, daughter of Joseph Clark and Rossanah Burns, it is possible that she could be the Janet on the 1851 census.
Little Prince
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Hi Little Prince,
Thank you very much for your message.
I have two conflicting dates in my records. I have a date listed for the birth of Janet Clark dated 20 Aug 1831 to Joseph Clark and Rosanna Burns. I also have a date for 1837. The Joseph who was the son of Gilbert Clark and Jane Wilson died in 1835.
Do you know when the Janet Clark McClure died in your family? Does her death record give her parent's name? I don't think this could be my g.g. grandmother Janet Clark because the Janet I am looking for, born in 1834, was married to Thomas McBride and not John McClure. However I do think that your Joseph Clark may be part of the same family. If he died in 1835 he could be the son of Gilbert Clark and Grace Wilson. Do you know when Joseph died?
I see from my records that I got the date of birth for Janet, the daughter of Joseph Clark and Rosanna, from a film and I shall order that again to make sure of the dates and I will let you know. I have recorded the baptism of Janet Clark (d. of Joseph and Rosanna) as 20 Sep 1831. If I find anything further I will let you know and I would appreciate anything you have on the McCLures that will sort this family out. Thanks. Martha Parker
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Hello Little Prince,
I did check the OPRs at Scotlands People and Janet Clark appears in the register on 30 Sep 1830. She is listed as the daughter of Joseph clark and Rosannah Burns. So the 1837 date listed below is wrong.
Martha Parker
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Hi Martha
The Janet Clark who was married to my g. grandfather died on 9th March 1858 in Friars Vennel. Dumfries, she was the daughter of Joseph Clark and Rossanah Burns. John McClure then married Catherine Walls and that is my family line.
regards Gillian