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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: vickifperry on Monday 04 January 10 10:05 GMT (UK)
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Hello,
I have no idea where this man came from so I hope this is the right board!
I'm researching John MOTT, born 1806 for a display at work. He was Lord Salisbury's porter at Hatfield House up until 1848, when he was sacked for allegedly stealing beer. He appears to have worked at the house for around 20 years.
In some letters he mentions his wife and son, and I think I have found them in the 1841 census, living in St Pancras, Marylebone,. His profession is given as a porter and his wife (?) is Margaret aged 33 and son (?) is Thomas, aged 11.
I can't find details of them after this. A letter from 1849 gives his address as 'Catherine Street, Pimlico'. I can't find details of them in the 1851 census or after this and I'd love to know what happened to him.
(I've found a family by the name of 'Nutt' in the '51 census- correct first names and ages, but I don't think it's them).
Does anyone know about this family? From the '41 census all I know is that they were born 'out of county.
Vicki
(Hatfield House)
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Hi Vicki
As much as I hate to say so, I've had a look at the 1841 and 1851 & I do think they're the same family surname NUTT - and the 1841 occupation for John being Plasterer, not Porter :'( which compares to the 1851 occupation - my transcripts:
1841: HO107 / Piece 681/ Book: 6 / Folio: 25 / Page: 46
St Pancras, Middlesex
John NUTT?? 35, Plasterer - N
Thomas NUTT?? 11 - N
Margaret NUTT 33 - N
They are in the same dwelling (perhaps as lodgers) as the family of George THORP, a Painter, and his family. The surname is very unclear, but seems to be 4 letters long and more like NUTT than MOTT to me :'(
HO107 /Piece: 1533/ Folio: 312/ Page: 3
St James, Holywell, Shoreditch, Middlesex
John C NUTT 44, Plasterer & Moulder, b Kingston Surrey
Wife: Margaret NUTT 40, b Whitby Yorkshire
Son: Thomas W NUTT 20, b Whitby Yorkshire
There is an extracted IGI entry for a Thomas William NUTT born 1830 Whitby Yorkshire to parents:
John NUTT and Margaret.
Cheers
AMBLY
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Yes I think you're right- clutching at straws I think!
I think it's a name that could easily be mis-transcribed, but on the other hand he could have died. It's odd that I can't find any of the family at all, but then it's difficult when you don't know where they're from.
Vicki
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Hi Vicki
Do the letters actually give the names of his wife and son as Margaret and Thomas ?
Rosie
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No they don't, so that's why they're a bit questionable, as the '41 census doesn't give relationships, but unfortunately I don't have anything else to go on! But they're listed with him in '41 and I know that he had a wife and son.
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Looking at the 1841 returns for Hatfield House of Lord Salisbury- doesn't appear to be any John MOTT in the household or surrounding cottages etc.
HO107/ Piece 436/ Book: 9/ Folio: 19/ Page:
This one is interesting though.......wrong occupation (Ind) & probably just one of those 'coincidences' or words etc but:
1841: St James Westminster - in an obviously 'upper class' house - could it be some sort of Gentleman's club maybe:
A John MOTT 40, Ind - N - in a household which is headed by a Wm HATFIELD who is followed by a Lord CRANSTOUN and a Lord DOUGLAS etc etc.
HO107/ Piece 736/ Book: 2/ Folio: 22/ Page: 39/
Cheers
AMBLY
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He is in London in 1841- not all of the servants lived in and he would also have worked for Lord Salisbury at his London residence. The reference number for him in 1841 is HO 107/681/6. p25
I spotted that one too- but it must be a coincidence. Very odd!
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He is in London in 1841- not all of the servants lived in and he would also have worked for Lord Salisbury at his London residence. The reference number for him in 1841 is HO 107/681/6. p25
I spotted that one too- but it must be a coincidence. Very odd!
I thought you had discounted that one after Amblys post :-\
Rosie
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I discounted the 'Nutt' family from the 1851 census. They are living in Prince Street, St Leonard Shoreditch.
Sorry to be confusing- just to clarify- I have them in 1841 (when I know that he was working for Lord Salisbury in London), but not in 1851. I thought that there was a possiblility for them in 1851, but discounted them (the Nutt family).
Vicki
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And would you believe that there are two John Motts working as Porters in 1841 in London?! It appears that the one I was sure was him isn't- as looking at the London household of the 2nd Marquess he is there, aged 50. He's mis-transcribed as 'Mett'.
Vicki
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Well done Vicky ;D
This is one he's not in 1841 - I still think this is John NUTT, Plasterer - not MOTT a Porter.
I was thinking, it would have been more likely to find you man 'living in' his employer's residence in 1841 - what's the reference for that one? Curious now !
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And would you believe that there are two John Motts working as Porters in 1841 in London?! It appears that the one I was sure was him isn't- as looking at the London household of the 2nd Marquess he is there, aged 50. He's mis-transcribed as 'Mett'.
Vicki
Well done Vicki ;D
So are the family with him, and does it say Yes or No for born in County (and was the London household in Middlesex or Surrey )
Rosie
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Yes I think you're right, sometimes we see what we want to see :) I got confused with my 1851 fellow Ambly who was also a plasterer (and not who I was looking for either!)
The reference for him in the 1841 census is HO 107/734/3 p14. Several of them are transcribed incorrectly, although I'm not surprised as the writing's terrible!
I think I may have also found him in 1851 (but still a bit of checking to do). There is a John Mott living in James Street, Westminster with a wife and son. He is described as a 'servant out of place', which is interesting as he wrote to the 2nd Marquess over a period of several months after he lost his job as he couldn't find a new one without a reference. If this is the correct one then he must have really struggled to find something new. :(
The reference for 1851 is HO 107/1840 p[512 I think]. This one was born in Mitford, Sussex, so it's something to go on anyway.
Many of the servants 'lived in' in the 1840s, but not all. Those that didn't lived nearby and it was usually the upper servants (eg the chef) who didn't. Although as he had a family he may have had his own lodgings as well.
Vicki
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Again well done :D the new 1851 you've found seems to tie in very well indeed with the letters you have . I see John "METT' in 1841 now - age 50, a M.S. - Not born Middlesex.....
No apparent wife or children in the house which is enumerated just with 16 servants in residence on Census night, and 'next door' to the Earl & Countess of Zetland - on Arlington St.
Eerie coincidence thing with THIS one is - there are two servants named BLIGH in the house with John 'METT' And there was a BLIGH in the same house as 1841 John NUTT too (right before him on that image peice).
You'll have a brilliant display for work - just need to find a photo of John MOTT now ;D ;D
Cheers
AMBLY
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If you haven't already found them, his wife Eliza & son John are here in 1841:
HO107 / Piece 738 / Book: 12 / Folio: 20 / Page: 35
Cheers
AMBLY
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Wow, thank you! That makes it so much more likely that I have the correct one in 1851.
We're having some actors coming in to re-enact the servants. I wasn't going to research John Mott, but his story was so fascinating- I wish my own family history would get this interesting!
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Did you notice in 1851, that the son John MOTT jnr (22) was a Wine merchants Clerk?
;D ;D :P :-X :'( Quite....poignant....considering the reason poor dad was out of Employ!
Historical Re-enactment - lovely! Wish I could see it !
Cheers
AMBLY