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Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: nelwild on Sunday 03 January 10 13:04 GMT (UK)
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Hello,
im trying to establish whether theres a family link between the Mobeys from Battersea area of London and Stanleys from Portsmouth area.
On the 1911 John Mobey,hawker/dealer born 1844 Notting Hill and wife Amelia(nee Huxley) born Kent, is stopping on land in Marlybone St,Southsea,Portsmouth with Michael Stanley born 1864 Brighton,wife Ada born 1869 Chatham,Kent and 7 children.
Ive been unable to find Michaels marriage(Mika on 1901) nor anything on John Mobey and Amelia Huxleys parents and possible siblings.
If anyone can find a marriage link between these two families id be very grateful,
thanks,
Nel.
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Nel; Just marking this one with my interest.
Happens I'm in touch with someone who's related to the (relevant) Stanley's of Portsmouth and am helping her out, as best I can, with some snippets. Can't talk on here, because some of the people involved are, to the best of my knowledge, still alive.
However, I wonder if 'your' Stanley was a forebear of the people I know? If so, that'd be extremely interesting, both to my enquirer and myself.
Sorry I can't help ye with this Mobey question :-\
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Hello Steve,
good to hear from you again.
If its useful to you,the 1911 info is as follows:
Michael Stanley born 1864 General Dealer Sussex.
Ada ??? born 1872 Hawker Chatham.
Daniel born 1894 Hawker Sussex.
Thomas born 1895 Hawker Sussex.
Ely born 1897 Hawker Sussex.
Phoebe born 1899 School Sussex.
Hilda born 1902 School Portsmouth.
Clara born 1904 School Portsmouth.
Yeila born 1907 Home Portsmouth.
Address:On land in Marlybone St,Southsea.
The only other family with them is John and Amelia Mobey.
Next door at 6 Marlybone St (house) is James Ware,hawker,and family.
On the 1901:
Mika born 1864 Brighton Hawker of flowers, plants sundry domestic utensils.
Ada born 1869 Brighton.
Daniel born 1894 Brighton.
Thomas born 1895 Brighton.
Lushy born 1897 Brighton.
Phoebe born 1900 Portsmouth.
Clara born 1834 Portsmouth Mother.
Address: Caravan(south side of Old Canal)
Next door:a shed in a field adjacent to Engine House
Thomas Shore born 1837 Staines,Middlesex,Fisherman.Widow.
This is all ive found so far,ill let you you know if i find anything else.
If you manage to uncover a Stanley/Mobey link id be really grateful,
all the best,
Nel.
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Some very interesting stuff in there, Nel! Cheers!
Ye know; I was wondering where this Marlybone St, Southsea was. Isn't there now and never was, in my time, as far as I ever knew.
But, " South side of the old canal " has given me a clue. We had an Ayres chap working on a Brickfield and living in a vardo, on the south side of the canal. Somehow or other, I worked it out that that must've been what's now Somerstown.
Now you're adding potential evidence to it. I have some old maps of Pompey somewhere around here. I'll have to see if I can dig them out again and have a look. If I can pin anything down I'll post my findings on here, for future reference for others.
Actually, I think it would be a fantastic project, for anyone 'on the ground', to try and map out the traditional stopping places of Pompey. Though, saying that; I don't know if anywhere much there could be said to have gained truly Traditional status. Certainly not in my time. 'Regular and Known', maybe? But, the damn place changed so constantly.
Anyway .....
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Steve
its intresting that you mention the brickfield as four of Michael Stanleys brothers are brickmakers on the 1881,,living with their parents in a tent in a field in Lawrence Rd.
Nel.
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Lawrence Rd? I'm almost certain I remember were that is, Nel. A field there though? In 1881? Blimey! I wonder where that was? If I do have the right road in mind, I recall no particular breaks in the properties down there. Or properties I'd have thought were out of step with the others. I wonder if the whole road then was built on since 1881?
This is good! ;D I'm enjoying this. It's sort of throwing my mind off in all directions.
I haven't had time to look out my old maps yet. But, I do remember, from earlier works with them, I discovered there were a good many 'Brick Fields' around Pompey, when ever these maps were drawn up. (I don't suppose ye at all familiar with the place, are ye?)
Listen; One of the things about that place which has played on my mind for half a century now is a couple of things about Alexandra Park there. My mum told me how, when she was a girl of under thirteen years of age, her mum and dad were at that park ~ mum in tow ~ and there was an encampment of vardo's.
My Granma beseeched Grandad that they buy a vardo and get back on the road. Only, he was having none of it. The rest remaining, as they say .....
It's not that bit I think about. It's the simple fact of a load of Gypsys actually pulling onto a place like Alexandra Park in the first place! It couldn't have been That radically different, back then, to how I grew up knowing it? All those horses and the fires on the grass though? I'd have loved to have seen the 'Parkies', blowing blood vessels left right and centre! ;D
Thing is, although I've had a cursory stab at it, once or twice, I never have yet cracked that event ~ and whether it was a one off or not, or what ever.
Then, there was some sort of 'Gypsy Fair' / Show Out that took place there in my own time. I only ever encountered it the once. But, I certainly retain the impression it was 'officially' sanctioned. I was just too young to really comprehend it all at the time.
This too I hope to, one day, get to the bottom of.
(Sorry. Rather turned this into the " Portsmouth Gypsys " Thread, haven't I? ::)
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Steve,
im not at all familiar with the geography of Portsmouth,only been there a few times when going to the Isle of Wight and looking at the Mary Rose etc.
The road immediately preceeding Lawrence on the census is Alexander Rd.
The only inhabitants of Lawrence Rd seem to be travellers.The others are:
James Hall,travelling musician,and family.
William Hughes and family.
Noah Stanley and family.
Samuel Stanley and family.
James Billows and family.
Richard Silas and family.
All licensed hawkers in tents/vans.
After them its just a blank page,so maybe it was a road waiting to be built on,or a road where buildings once stood.
Another thought ive had on the brickmaking,the area of London the Mobeys were from was Battersea,Notting Hill etc,i believe the area was old potteries/brickfields.I think it was known as the Great Metropolitan Gypsyries or something.A lot of the people who lived there,both Gypsy and Gorger,were brickworkers,so that could be a link,
it would be nice to find a link to the Stanleys ,
Nel
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This is Wild, Nel ..... :-\ ..... :-[
I've just ~ prompted by this thread ~ made the effort and dug out my old maps. Guess what? Only turns out the man who's been producing these mind expanding maps has just been awarded an MBE for his work! :o Look! (http://www.alangodfreymaps.co.uk/)
And, guess what else? I'm now off to grab the two 'Pompey' maps I hadn't bothered (or been able?) to pick up at the time. One of which covers Southsea in 1896!
So, once I have that one, it'll show us Lawrence Rd. It is exactly where I remember it being. And, having 'slept on it', it's been coming back to me how there are (were?) indeed some quite outstanding, 'Big Houses' dotted sparsely about that area. Whack off big places. Ostentatious as all ell, in their own right. Even if they were bed sit blocks, or council offices by my time.
But, they alone suggest an earlier sense of grandeur, set away from the spread of the stink. That same stink as would have later engulfed the entire island. First the meadow fields becoming Brick Fields. Then the bricks being used to build more and more houses. Hundred more years and what have we?
Incidentally; Check out Lawrence Rd on Google. Trace down it. Right to the bottom. It runs into Albert Rd. K? Well, right there, on the corner, left hand / west side? That's where the old Poor House once stood. I have a photo of The Door. Studded, solid thing. Complete with wrought ironed inspection hole. God help the poor souls who found themselves tapping. Some of mine did :(
Tell ye what? Make ye a deal; You work the London / Mobey end. I'll dig into the 'Portsea' / Stanley end. Let's see where we each end up. How's that sound? ;D
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Sorry about delay in replying Steve,
was out and about getting some money in the kitty before all the bad weather turned up,also got a heavy cold which is making me feel really rough.
Its a deal with the research idea.Im not the worlds best researcher,so it might be slow going,got a very short concentration span.Thats why i tend to have lots of threads going at once.I dont think ive ever read a book from start to finish in my life.I normally have about ten going at the same time.
Ill give you some of the Mobey info i have to see if the give any clues to a Stanley link.
John Mobey born 1841 Shepards Bush/Notting Hill hose dealer(van)
Amelia Huxley born 1842 Kent.
No earlier info found on them.
John Mobey 1860 Fulham/Betsy Herne.
Names connected to her family so far:
Dixie,North.
Names connected to Dixie:
Eastwood,White,Smith,Deacons,Franklin.
John Mobeys daughter Caroline married Henry Davis.
Son Alfred married:
1 Emily Bone.
2 Annie McCartney.
Alfred/Emilys son John married Raney Smith,daughter of Major Smith and Lucy Cooper.
These are the names i have so far,so im looking for any Stanley link to these.
Ive got a book somewhere by one of the old Romany scholars,i think it was George Borrow,called Romano Lavo Lil(Romany word book).Its got a lot of info on this area of London in the mid to late 1800s,so im going to try and find that.
Nel.
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No worries, Nel ;) I've got enough irons in the fire that I either rag at one, or else shrink away in despair, promising myself to concentrate of 'That ..... once I get time.' Then, the person I'm talking to, about the Stanley's is much the same again. So, no one's rushing head long and going to be yelling that another should keep up.
My first move has been to send for my missing link map. I'm just waiting for the Alan Godfrey, MBE, map of Southsea in 1896. From that, I hope to be able to pin point the Southsea brick Fields and get a better idea of the lay of the land, further back towards the time we're discussing.
My next job is to find out the paternal names of 'my' Stanley's. Hope to manage at least the fathers without any problems. I reckon I might well have the mothers name by the time ye get to see this post. And, we all know what can be done from there! ;)
My biggest nail biter is going to be the 1911. Could the parents be old enough to show up on there? If I can crack 'Mr Stanley'? We'll be as good as home and dry. I'll play 'Mrs' by ear.
Anyway, enough of this. Just saying it's got my blood up. I'll now drop everything else and go hunting Stanley's! ;D
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Four of Michael Stanleys brothers are living with their parents in a tent in a field in Lawrence Rd.
And I reckon I just this minute found that field, Nel! ;D It appears to be just what I'm looking at, on the 1896 map. About 3/4 the way down Lawrence Rd, there's still a blank area shown. On the west side.
Wow! I wonder what's there now? I'd love to be able to go there and find out. What ever it is should stick out like a punch in the mouth, because there's what one would assume to be largely the same period houses either side of it.
So; Why did they stop building Lawrence Rd at that point? What was that field all about? Someone owned it and didn't want or need to sell it for development? Yet they 'allowed' (?) Gypsys to stop on it? This is chewy! ;)
We need someone, fanatical, on the ground in Pompey, Nel. So much might be hidden in the Records Office. We can only scratch about and guess from here :(
But, anyway; There's ye site. (Wonder if it'd be permissible to scan that patch? Show ye the size of the 'field'?)
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http://www.rushmoor.gov.uk/media/images/s/h/brickfieldsleaflet.pdf
may be able to get info
sylvia
http://www.hants.gov.uk/rh/gypsy/index.html
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Steve,
thats very curious.I was expecting maybe an unmade road or something similar,but not an area of land between two grand houses.I wonder what thats all about.
Maybe its a derelict area where a building once stood,possibly fire damage or something like that.
Or maybe the houses either side were to do with the brickfields,management maybe,and the land was set aside for travellers who worked there.
If things were the same then as they are now,i cant see it being an official stopping place between two residential dwellings.Ive no doubt the same preducices existed back then.
Your map throws up a lot of questions.Itll be intresting to try and get to the bottom of it.
Ive a strong feeling that brickmaking and brickfields could well be a link between Notting Hill area and some of the West Country families.Ive been searching high and low for that book,still cant find it.Its got some really facsinating descriptions of the area and characters,so il keep looking.
Many thanks to Maidmarionoops for the links,
Nel.
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I used to have " Romano Lavo Lil " myself, Nel. Decades back though and I didn't honestly retain the topographical sort of stuff from it. Not a small book, is it? Ought to stick out on ye book shelves. My copy was orange, as it happens.
I've read loads of stuff pertaining to the old, London, sites and so on though, on line. Obviously, all part of those long nights, dragging ones eyes across acres of Google. Be a devil of a job to find it again. But it's out there.
Anyway, I've been trawling through my somewhat eclectic and totally vast collection of Portsmouth photo's, since last night. People have asked me for shots and I've been looking over thousands of the things. Bummer is, I have Fawcet Rd, which is just above Lawrence. Fawcet actually bends off to the east and what carries on south is then called Lawrence. I came That close :-\
I'd say these shots are of roughly the right period. And they show Fawcet as quite a vibrant shopping sort of road. Even more mental then to think that, a couple of hundred yards down the way, there's a, seemingly well enough established, camp site!
But, regards ye view of peoples views of Gypsys back then? Dunno. I think we have to factor in that Gypsys were probably far more " Gypsys " back then. And they'd have been 99.9% 'Romani's'. Thus I wonder how the general populace would've viewed them?
My point is; There would, surely, have been less of this rubbish about " Proper Gypsys ". People today tend to differentiate between some semi mythical, dark skinned, eyed and haired people ~ flashing white teeth. Gold ear rings. Violins and god knows what else? Where does it stop? And, of course, they All lived in vardo's.
Now, anyone in a trailer is easily pointed out as not being a " Proper Gypsy " and so can be hated with impunity.
Anyway, I'm 'digressing'. Give me twenty minutes or so. I'll show ye that field on the map. Can't hurt to show a square inch of an entire district? I'm sure the man himself won't mind ;)
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;) Here we go. I'm attaching this picture direct from my computer. Never done this before. Hope it works?
Anyway, what I'm hoping to show ye here is that part of Lawrence Rd with the 'field' on the left ' west side. I hope too that we can see the stunning detail of these (Alan Godfrey, MBE) maps ~ as in, each property is clearly demarked. So, ye can see it really was a residential road. And, from personal memory, I can assure ye it was no slum area either!
What was that 'field' then? Bit of waste ground? Certainly not a Bomb Site. Not in those days. Perhaps it was itself a Brick Field? I really don't know.
But, I wonder if I might know a man who could ..... 8)
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On the 1911 John Mobey,hawker/dealer born 1844 Notting Hill and wife Amelia(nee Huxley) born Kent, is stopping on land in Marlybone St,Southsea,Portsmouth with Michael Stanley born 1864 Brighton,wife Ada born 1869 Chatham,Kent and 7 children.
Nel; That would have been Marylebone Street. And it was bang up on the Northern edge of what is now, at best, called Southsea. Actually within about a hundred yards or so of the Town Station. (To the north).
Again, this place would have been around about a couple of hundred yards or so West of where I'd been thinking anywhere else on the south side of the old canal should've been. I'm getting a feel for Ground Zero now! ;)
We're really talking what became " Somerstown ".
Just dropping these snippets in, as I dig them up. Be a swine to loose them, if I should drop dead without telling anyone what I'm finding out here! ::)
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Hello Steve,
Back again,been busy earning and making the most of the fine weather.
The map does seem to show a very built up residential area,with the open space completley surrounded by houses,apart from the entrance.This does seem unusual.
Im afraid i havent got much yet,i still cant find that book,really frustrating,ive noticed it knocking around for months,now when i need it its vanished.Mines a little paperback copy,brown cover with a very traditional Spanish looking Gypsy Lady on it.I picked it up at a boot fair for 20p.Bargain.Im going to have another look as its full of names and descriptions,
Nel
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Fine weather?! :o You having a laugh with me or what, Nel? It's gone from frozen to raining, here.
Anyway, never mind that. Here they are! The Marylebone Street Site!
And, yeppers, again it is an 'unusual' spot. Patch of land in mid metropolis. But then, I lived round there at one time. There was a spot of waste land, probably less than 50 yards by 25. Still regularly used by Gypsys. So, it's fair to allow that these places will be much the same. Little spots of level ground which weren't being used for anything else just then. On they'd come.
In fact, this spot is about 100 yards or so from the Guildhall! But, it's also behind the town station, see? Tucked away, just behind the scenes. And that area never was, nor likely will be, the most salubrious part of town. Handy for the places they'd all be able to find a bit of work though ;)
You feed me the locations. I'll pin them down. Great fun, finding out the little hidey holes they went to, all those years ago. So much more fun than just names on censuses. (Censii? :-\)
One more thought; James Ware, living in a house next to this spot? Wonder if he had anything to do with that plot of land? There's still a family of Ware's now living on a farm, just north of Portsmouth. I was thinking of them only today, in fact! Never really learned a great deal about them. But they were known to 'the right sort of people', in my youth. I wonder?
Anyway, I'll keep picking at all this, as time allows. Unfortunately, my eyeballs are so shot now I can barely manage to read these damn maps :( Making it hard for me. I'm enjoying the more ground based detective work though. Maybe able to put some more flesh on these peoples backgrounds.
Here's where they were stopping:
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"Alfred/Emily's son John married Raney Smith,daughter of Major Smith and Lucy Cooper."
John Mobey / Rainey Smith are my Great Grand Parents - they bought houses and stopped travelling.
I have a hefty tree on Ancestry.co.uk so feel free to contact me
John Alfred Mobey married Ameila Oxley/Huxley (the spelling shifts depending on the record) 13 Jun 1859; and from that point the mobey's seem to be travellers
their eldest son, John William moves to Australia with his Wife Betsey Hearn(e)
Caroline as mentioned earlier marries Henry Davis 30 Aug 1880
Alfred as Mentioned earlier marries Emma/Emily Bone 20 Oct 1884 and after her death Annie McCarthy 14 Feb 1899
Gary Mobey
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Hello, I'm trying to find more about the mobey side of my family my great great grandmother was Rhoda mobey before marring Edward rossiter. Rhodas mum was called Esther mobey and her dad was William
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Rhoda Mobey ~1894 -> ~1948 was the Child of William Mobey b ~1866 and Esther Collins b ~ 1872
william was the son of John alfred Mobey 14 Oct 1842 -> 9 Aug 1912 and Amelia Huxley ~1841 -> 1 Mar 1921
John Alfred was the son of Alfred Mobey ~1820 -> 1 apr 1888 and Caroline Brewer ~ 1823 -> after 1891
Alfred Mobey was the son of John Mobey 1787 -> 1847 and Sarah parsons b 1804
John Mobey was the Son of Richard Mobey ~1760 -> 1826 (spelling varies) and Ann Cox ~ 1766 -> 1790