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Research in Other Countries => United States of America => Topic started by: Rapunzel on Saturday 02 January 10 16:23 GMT (UK)
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Hello
In 1937 my great aunt Isabella Greene nee Wallace (born in Wigtonshire, Scotland in 1867), residing at the time in her house at 35 Goodwin Place, Brooklyn, Kings County, made her will.
I have been unable to find out when she left Scotland for USA, when she got married there, to whom, or when she died. Her death must have been between 1937 and 1946 as as that's when the NY lawyers started to contact us (my grandmother was executrix). She had no children (at least none living) and only her brothers and sisters were mentioned in the will.
The family story says that she married a band leader and ran a boarding house at Goodwin Place (it really belonged to her). I have a photo taken about 20 years ago of the building but it now seems to have disappeared (Google Earth search).
The whole situation was very complicated and the lawyers at both ends dragged things out over years. In the end we apparently lost the building as we did not pay the NY taxes (which no one seemingly told us about).
In the will she had a paragraph where she left money for the perpetual care of plot 2877 at the Mount Risgah Evergreen Cemetery, Brooklyn, Kings County. She was a widow in 1937.
I have emailed the cemetery - now renamed - several times but have had no replies. I asked them if they could tell me who was buried there - her husband - or was it for herself?
Is there anyone out there who can help me with any of the missing information?
Hopefully
Rapunzel :) :)
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Any idea when she was born? there's an Isabelle Greene (age 71) died 30 Jan. 1941 Manhattan (can't see any possibilities under Green).
An Isabella G Wallace married Harry Greene on 7 Dec.1902 Kings Co.
http://www.italiangen.org/VRECLIST.stm
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Hi Rapunzel
1910 census, living at 4706 New Utrecht Avenue, Brooklyn Ward 30, Kings, NY
Head, Harry J Greene, age 35, M1 for 9 years, born New York, parents born New York, occupation Bookkeeper Wholesale Glass, Home rented
Wife, Isabelle G, age 38, born Scot (English), parents born Scot (English), immigration year 1896
Mother, Mary Ann, age 71, Widowed, born New York, parents born New York
1920 census, 708 Lafayette Avenue, Brooklyn, Kings, New York
Head, Harry J Greene, age 45, born New York, occupation Salesman Merchandise. Home owned
Wife, Isabelle G, age 48, born Scotland, , immigration year unknown
1930 census, 37 Goodwin Avenue, Brooklyn, Kings, New York
Head, Isabel Green, age 60, Widowed, born Scotland, immigration year 1889, occupation Carrier China Busi.?, owns home value $9000
and a death for Harry Green:
Harry J Greene, died 18th May 1922 age 47years in Queens, NY
Yvonne
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Thank you both for what you've sent - aghadowey for the link too.
She was born in 1867 in Wigtonshire in Scotland - illegitimate daughter of Agnes Wallace.
But, I've learned the hard way that one can't go by dates and ages given on censuses so perhaps it's her every time on what you have both sent.
Yvonne, your information from the census records is certainly her so I've moved on quite a bit.
No band leader as the family story went, and at last a bit of information on her husband. There were no children registered anywhere were there?
I'm still hoping that someone can get me the information on the cemetery plot.
Many thanks
Rapunzel :) :)
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Hi Rapunzel
The 1910 census shows that no children were born at that time to Isabelle and unfortunately in the 1920 and 1930 census, the question of how many children born isn't asked.
The only other document dated 12th September 1918 is Harry's WWI draft index card, which only shows Isabelle as next of kin.
Harry James Green born 4th December 1874
Living at 708 Lafayette Avenue, Brooklyn, Kings, NY
Employed as Paint (Something?), Salesman at 101 Park Ave, New York, NY
Nearest relative Isabella G Greene (same home address)
It certainly doesn't look as if any children were born at least no children who survived but that is pure speculation with the amount of years in between census'.
I personally have no experience of researching the cemetery that Isabelle was buried in but my family were mostly buried in Calvary in Queens, NY. I did make a telephone call to them and I'm not sure if it was my English accent or the desperation in my voice ??? but the gentleman gave me the section, range and plot numbers and a list of all who were buried in the plot as well as who purchased it.
By the way, their address "708 Lafayette Ave, Brooklyn, NY" is on google although that particular building appears to be in the process of rebuilding the others around will give you a good indication of what it looked like. Plus in the 1920 census (at Layfayette Ave) and the 1930 census (at Goodwin Ave) the Greene's owned the buildings but there were other families who were renting.
Sorry couldn't help more
Best wishes
Yvonne
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There are a few volunteers in Kings Co. on www.raogk.org who take pictures at cemeteries - not sure if any of them fit the one you're looking for. Another option is ordering Isabelle or Harry's death certificate, which should list a place of burial.
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Thank you both for your comments. I'll go into them in detail later today - I have visitors at present.
Rapunzel
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Hi Rapunzel and Shelly and Yvonne and aghadowey: The closest cemetery I could find that sounded like the cemetery you listed above is The Evergreens Cemetery at 1629 Bushwick Avenue, Brooklyn, a mile or so from the Goodwin Place address you had for Isabella and Harry Greene. The website for the cemetery is http://www.theevergreenscemetery.com. Click on Records to confirm the info.
If that is the cemetery you e-mailed, Rapunzel, then here is a burial listing for a Harry Greene:
First Name Last Name Burial Date Lot Location
HAROLD GREENE 1936-02-12 315637
No idea what the lot location number means.
Unfortunately, I could not find a burial listing for Isabella Greene in the Evergreens' records. I searched her under Greene, Green, Wallace, and by first name Isabella. But the cemetery's website says that the listings are incomplete.
Re-read the thread and then searched cemetery records by first name Isabelle. Nothing found.
If this is not the cemetery, post the name of it and I'll see what I can find.
Regards,
John :o :o :o
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Hi again all: I just re-read Yvonne's mention that Isabella Greene was a widow in 1920 and her discovery of the death of a Harry Green in Queens in 1922. If she is correct, then I am wrong. If I am correct, then her info is wrong. Harry Green(e) is a common enough name that care should be taken.
John :o :o :o
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It was 1930 not 1920 census where Isabella was listed as widow.
According to what's already been found (and yes, care is needed as Greene is such a common surname and there could be lots of Harry Greenes in N.Y.C. at the same time)-
1902 Isabella G. Wallace m. Harry Greene
1910 Harry & Isabella living at 4706 New Utrecht Avenue, Brooklyn
1920 Harry & Isabella living at 708 Lafayette Avenue, Brooklyn
1930 Isabella (wid.) living at 37 Goodwin Avenue, Brooklyn
1937 Isabella Greene living at 35 Goodwin Place, Brooklyn made her will
1937/1946 Isabella Greene died
All in King's Co. (Brooklyn) so this may not be the correct Harry-
"Harry J Greene, died 18th May 1922 age 47years in Queens, NY"
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Hi Everyone
The Harold Greene who was buried at The Evergreens Cemetery appears to be too young!
The IGG death index shows:
Harold Greene age 36, died 8 February 1936 in Kings County (born 1899-1900)
Also on the IGG death index
Isabelle Greene age 71, Died 30 January 1941 in Manhattan (born 1869-1870)
The above index entry for an Isabelle obviously shows as died in Manhattan (maybe in hospital?)
Rapunzel
It might be worth sending for all the certificates...
Shellyesq has put a link to the PDF file for ordering photocopies from the LDS (can't recall what thread though...so here it is again http://www.familysearch.org/ENG/Search/RG/images/FReqMicrofilm.pdf )
I do use this facility a great deal especially as it costs only $2 per item (maximum 8 costing $16) and as my family names are so common, I am able to order when I am not absolutely sure. My bank provides an international draft in dollars for £5.00 not sure what other banks charge! You will need to enter the microfilm number and the certificate number (I always cross the last heading out and write in "Certificate number"). I have always received these in 2-3 weeks here in England.
To find the microfilm number:
Go to "The library Catalog" at Familysearch http://www.familysearch.org/eng/Library/FHLC/frameset_fhlc.asp
Click "Place Search" enter "New York" and then click either "New York, New York (City), New York, Kings, New York City or New York, Queens, New York City" depending on where the death occurred. Click "View Place Details" then scroll down to "Vital Records" (not the indexes)
You will see a list of records held, click on the one you need and click on "View Film Notes"
Scroll through until you see Cert.No. and date and you will have the FHL Film number...
I did the above for Harry J Greene's death which is on film number 2028035
Hope this helps
Best wishes
Yvonne
Here I have filled one in....I generally print it and write the details
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Sorry I've taken so long to answer you all but I have been doing some re-checking.
Here's everything again including your bits with ?s where things are still not clear.
1867 - Isabella Wallace was born in Whithorn, Scotland on 30.05. to Agnes Wallace (she is registered as illegitimate but a paternity case was heard and won but she did not use her father's name of Rodgers).
1871 - On the census she is 3 years old and living with her grandmother Jessie Wallace in Whithorn (in 1871 her mother married and was with her new husband).
1881 - On the census she is noted as a 13 year old stepdaughter (scholar) of Stephen Rice and his wife.
1891 and after - no trace in Scotland.
1902 - on 7.12. marriage between Isabella G. Wallace and Harry J. Greene in Kings County - she should be c. 35, he c. 28, so dates recorded are incorrect.
The 'G' in her name is not on her birth certificate but she uses it from here on.
What I'd like to know if possible about this marriage is were they both single? What were their occupations at that time? Is this information recorded anywhere?
1910 - Census - living in rented accommodation: 4706 New Utrecht Ave., Brooklyn, Ward 30, Kings County, no children recorded.
Head of household: Harry J. Greene, occupation Bookkeeper Wholesale Glass.
Born in NY, parents born in NY.
Wife: Isabella G. Greene, born Scotland, parents born Scotland, immigration year 1896.
Their ages are given as 31 and 38, this is incorrect: he is c.36 and she c. 43. As everything else tallies the ages must have been manipulated somehow.
Mother of Harry, Mary Anne Greene, 71, widow, she and parents born in NY.
Does anyone know what the census comment 'M1 for 9 years' means?
1920 - living in their own property, 708 Lafayette Ave., Brooklyn, Kings County. Did they rent out - were others living there too?
Iabella's immigration year was unknown - strange - does this mean someone else filled in the form, do you think?
1918 - This is also the address given on the WW1 draft index card and gives Isabella as next of kin. It also gives us the dob of Harry - 04.12.1874. This makes him 44 in 1918 - is this not rather old to be called up for war service? I suppose it was something like the Home Guard rather than active fighting?
His occupation on the WW1 draft was given as a paint something salesman in NYCity - a rather posh address too. But in 1920 he was noted as salesman Merchandis. so again a bit unclear.
Harry's mother seems to have died in the meantime - or moved out.
1922 - Harry J. Greene died in Queens - although they lived in Brooklyn this is possible - a hospital? He certainly seems like the right one and the ages match.
1930 - Isabella is a widow and living at 37 (sorry 35 was her friend) Goodwin Place aged 60 (really 63). Occupation given as Carrier China Busin...?
Immigration year 1889 - this does not tally with the year given in 1910!
Did she rent out rooms - are others recorded at that address?
1941 - Isabella G. Greene died in Manhatten - again, like Harry it could have been a hospital or someone else's house for that matter.
the Harry who died in 1936 can't be my one - unless a son, which I doubt. The only child I found that MIGHT be theirs was a Harold who died aged 1 in 1907 in Kings. As they didn't marry all that young it looks as though they had no children. Only her step brothers and sisters are mentioned in her will.
The cemetery address you gave me John is the one I emailed several times but my plot number is 2877.
By the way, the house is still there and looks not too bad - probably worth a fortune nowadays!
Many, many thanks to all of you: adhadowey, Yvonne, shellyesq, John. I really appreciate all the time and effort you've given to my post, also for all the useful suggestions etc. which I will follow up. You have managed to clear away some of the unknown and set some of the records on Isabella straight - band leader indeed!! Will let you know if I get any further with this.
Rapunzel
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1942 draft registration was a merely a registration of men born between certain dates and is not an indication of military service.
New York marriage certificate would show marital status, occupations, addresses, etc.
"Does anyone know what the census comment 'M1 for 9 years' means?" means 1st marriage, married 9 years.
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Hi all: I wouldn't be too quick to reject the bandleader theory. From the Kings County (Brooklyn) page of the USGenweb page for New York State (accessed at http://www.bklyn-genealogy-info.com), some food for thought:
Lain's 1897 directory of Brooklyn has
GREEN Harry A. musician h 1295 B'wick av (h = house, and the abbreviation stands for Bushwick Avenue)
This address is about 13 city blocks from Goodwin Place. The middle initial is wrong.
and
GREENE Harry musician h 293 Sackett
This address is in the Brooklyn neighborhood that is now called Carroll Gardens (south of the Brooklyn Bridge and directly across the East River from Manhattan).
Also GREENE Wm. carp'r h 293 Sackett (carpenter)
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Hi Rapunzel: Good news and bad news about Isabella and Harry Greene. I spent an hour or so this morning at the Evergreen Cemetery. Found out from the office that Isabella and Harry J. Greene are buried together in Plot No. 2877 in the Pisgah section of the cemetery.
Isabella's interment date is Feb. 3, 1941, confirming the Jan. 30, 1941 date of death in Manhattan posted above. Harry's interment date is May 26, 1922, confirming the May 22, 1922 date of death posted above.
Isabella and Harry's burial are not listed in the cemetery's online database simply because it is an incomplete database. The cemetery had no further information to give me.
The cemetery is so large that a cemetery worker had to help me find the grave. Unfortunately, there is no grave stone. I took pictures of the grave, with the cemetery worker standing where the gravestone would have been. I'm attaching a picture with this post. If it works, I'll post two additional pictures to give some perspective where the grave is.
The cemetery office told me that there was no records of perpetual care being paid for. I think that the absence of a gravestone and the lack of perpetual care leads me to think that the lawyers handling the will fell down on the job when it came to performing their fiduciary duty to Isabella's estate. At least I hope this answers some questions.
To get more information, you'd have to order death certificates for Isabella and Harry from the City of New York.
Regards,
John :o :o :o
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This picture shows is a longer shot of nearby graves. Isabella’s and Harry’s grave is the open space to the right of the brown gravestone that is just behind that taller black stone in the middle of the picture. The grave is a single grave, with the coffins buried one atop the other.
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In the far background, you can make out the skyline of Manhattan. The Empire State Building is through the leafless bushy tree on the far left.
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Final image: You'll find the Pisgah section on the attached map of the cemetery directly below the "M" in Cemetery. Isabella and Harry are buried just on the dotted line that marks the border betweeen the Pisgah and the Mt. Hebron.
section.
If the attached map is not clear enough, you can download the map from the cemetery website, http://www.theevergreenscemetery.com.
John :o :o :o
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Aghadowey, many thanks for the explanation of M1 abd for your help.
John, how can I ever thank you for all the trouble you went to?
It is really sad that Isdabella's wishes were not carried out - at least they are buried together and findings have been confirmed.
It is really a sad story as there's no one over here who can remember her. She didn't forget her step siblings though even though she left Scotland early. Her parents died in 1891 (her mother) and 1892 her stepfather. All the children were 'farmed out' into domestic service, the oldest was 19 and married, she took care of the youngest aged 2 - the rest were scattered and were kitchen maids, domestic servants, grooms, and the youngest a 'day worker' aged 4.
It doesn't surprise me that the money left for the grave's care wandered into other people's pockets (none of the beneficiaries by the way). The NY lawyers managed to drag things out for years, 'forgot' to let us know about taxes due for the house etc. etc. so that in the end there was nothing lef - so they said. Obviously my grandmother (the executrix) wasn't very capable as well as the others of the family. There must have been a substantial sum of money as well as the house and contents according to the will so at least they didn't do badly.
I'll try to follow up the Greene side a bit to find out whether Harry was a bandleader as well.
Thanks again
Rapunzel :) :)