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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Leicestershire => England => Leicestershire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: HistoryFan on Tuesday 29 December 09 02:12 GMT (UK)
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William Percy Allen was my Great Grandfather and as far as searching for information about him I have hit the biggest brick wall.
From the information I have gathered (below) he was born between 1876-1880 in Leicestershire.
I have been unable to trace him on the 1881 Census or the 1891 Census so far.
I found him on the 1901 Census at the barracks of the Leicestershire Regiment - "Glen Parva"
William Allen aged 24 (B1876/77) birth born St Margarets, Leicestershire (this is East Leicester)
He moved to Guernsey CI where he married my Great Grandmother Beatrice Mitchell at Holy Trinity Church St Peter Port on 11 September 1904
The Wedding Certificate did not provide his place of birth, but stated that he was a Private in the 2nd. Battalion of the Leicester Regiment and was now stationed at Fort George (Military) Guernsey.
His age is given as 24 here which would make his birth (1879-1880)
His Father's name is provided as Charles Allen as Watchmaker.
On the 1911 Census he is living at The Cottage, St John Street, St Peter Port Guernsey
William Allen (30) 1880/81 birth - birthplace Nottingham? **
Beatrice Allen (27) Born St Peter Port Guernsey
Florence Beatrice Allen (6) As above
Winnifred Ellen (3) As Above
Note William's occupation - Labourer/Plasterer. Did he do this inbetween War Service?
**His birthplace on the 1911 Census is stated as Nottingham - which could well be a red herring, as his birth place is given as Leicester in the 1901 Census and he was confirmed to be in the Leicestershire Regiment on his Wedding Certificate in 1904, and the Death Certificate states he was born in Leicestershire.
His Death Certificate states that he died on 1st February 1916 at Netley Military Hospital Southampton of War Wounds (six weeks before my Grandmother was born) aged 39 which would confirm an 1876/1877 birth year.
William Percy Allen - Private 05398 (Royal Army Ordinance Corp)
Born: Leicestershire
My Grandmother who died 8 weeks ago had been very keen to find out more about the Father she never knew, so I have been searching for information on him for a number of years - I am still keen to find out more about him.
Any tips, leads or advice very welcome
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Hi,
There are details of a William Allens service records on Ancestry, they are definately his as they mention correct wife, father and mother and Leicester and Nottingham.
Using the details I think he can be found on the CWGC site as a casualty who died 01/02/1916 and is buried in Netley Military Cemetary, Hampshire.
I can t find him on the censuses but will check an address in Nottingham.
Best wishes
Cathy
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Hi,
There are details of a William Allens service records on Ancestry, they are definately his as they mention correct wife, father and mother and Leicester and Nottingham.
Using the details I think he can be found on the CWGC site as a casualty who died 01/02/1916 and is buried in Netley Military Cemetary, Hampshire.
I can t find him on the censuses but will check an address in Nottingham.
Best wishes
Cathy
Thanks Cathy.
Yes I have seen his record on the CWGC site and have the Burial details at Netley Military Cemetery. I also have a copy of his Medal Card which I found on the National Archives site.
I am not registered with Ancestry at this point so not able to check those details. You mentioned that it shows the name of his mother on there.
Would you kindly let me know what it is? That would be a great help with my search as I only have the name of his father Charles Allen at this stage.
Many thanks.
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Hi,
sorry. i guessed you might have seen the records. Mother is Sarah, I was looking for them at an address in Nottingham. 22, Garden Street but have had no luck.He appears to have been born St. Marys, Leicester.
I can t find them on the census, they do seem to have disappeared and no obvious births either tho there are a couple of possibles on freebmd.
Could William Percy have possibly been born before parents married and had his mothers surname?
Addresses in Guernsey include Veauvert? Street and 64,Victoria road. St Peter Port.
Hope this may help
Best wishes
Cathy
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Hi,
sorry. i guessed you might have seen the records. Mother is Sarah, I was looking for them at an address in Nottingham. 22, Garden Street but have had no luck.He appears to have been born St. Marys, Leicester.
I can t find them on the census, they do seem to have disappeared and no obvious births either tho there are a couple of possibles on freebmd.
Could William Percy have possibly been born before parents married and had his mothers surname?
Addresses in Guernsey include Veauvert? Street and 64,Victoria road. St Peter Port.
Hope this may help
Best wishes
Cathy
Thanks so much once again. Those Guernsey addresses all tie up perfectly.
It could well be that his parents were never married. Unfortunately very little information has been passed down the family line.
My Grandmother said there were relatives with the surname Holmes, but this could be just cousins or beyond. She also said that William had a sister named Nellie (could be Ellen), but I do not know if she was older or younger than William.
Apparently Nellie married a Mr Stone, but having checked out the Stone surname that becomes a whole new needle in the haystack.
Is Sarah's surname showing as Allen?
Many Many thanks.
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Hi,
Father Charles
Mother Sarah
Unfortunately no surname, but address in Nottingham as above.
The only marriage I can find is
Sep1906 Leicester
Ellen Susannah P(hyllis) Kemp
Valentine Bray Stone ( same page but correct in later records)
Ellens family seem to have a connection to Leicester and her mother is a Sarah, a widow in 1901
Rg13/3004 88/12
But then absolutely no obvious connections to William Percy it is a puzzle!
Cathy
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Thank you so much Cathy, it means a lot that you have hunted for me.
Happy New Year to you.
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Hi HistoryFan
Have you come across the following - could this be the potential father of William Percy - right name, right time, right place, right occupation (if so, would suggest WP was born illegimate and we have no idea of his mothers surname).
Cannot find any other trace of this person in census before/after 1881.
1881 Census - 6 Charles Street, Leicester St. Margaret
Charles B. Allen 45 Unm. Watch & Clock Maker b. Toronto Upper, Canada
(1 of 4 boarders at the address)
Ref. RG11 - 3157 - 82 - 29
Happy New Year.
Annette
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Hi HistoryFan
Have you come across the following - could this be the potential father of William Percy - right name, right time, right place, right occupation (if so, would suggest WP was born illegimate and we have no idea of his mothers surname).
Cannot find any other trace of this person in census before/after 1881.
1881 Census - 6 Charles Street, Leicester St. Margaret
Charles B. Allen 45 Unm. Watch & Clock Maker b. Toronto Upper, Canada
(1 of 4 boarders at the address)
Ref. RG11 - 3157 - 82 - 29
Happy New Year.
Annette
Thanks Annette. Yes this Charles Allen really raises suspicions! I will have to look into this. Thank you.
I have been looking at William Percy Allen's Military Records and from those forms he was born in St Marks Leicester between 1876-1880. The 1901 Census had stated St Margarets Leicester so not sure how far apart these two "St's" are.
From the enlistment to the Militia it appears that he enlisted 21 November 1894 aged either 18 years 6months or 18 years 1 month,which would make his birth 1876.
The 1911 discharge from the Regiment papers confirm that his parents names were Charles and Sarah who were living at 22 Garden Street, Nottingham.
I looked at Findmypast on the address section and boo hoo - lots of other numbers in Garden Street but nothing for 22.
At this stage I am close, but still not quite there!
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Hi all
1901 at 22 Garden Street, Nottingham (in the Radford / New Radford area)
was the family of Arthur & Thirza SIMPSON
RG13 / Piece: 3181 / Folio: 76 / Page: 16
They are still in Nottingham in 1911 but not sure if they are still at 22 Garden...
If they aren't - maybe by trying to find some of the 1901 neighbours in 1911 who might still be on the same street, you can find Nr 22? One neighbour in 1901 was a Jospeh CHAPLAIN age 44 at nr 20.
He looks to be in Nottingham in 1911 age 54
Cheers
AMBLY
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I've been investigating heaps to try and figure out the WILLIAM PERCY ALLEN mystery. A thorough read and re-read of all his Military records has narrowed down my belief that he was born between 1876-1880 in ST MARGARETS LEICESTER.
The 4 year 'gap' in his birth year is due to age changes on a couple of Censuses, records and his death certificate. His death certificate says he was 39 in February 1916.
Would anyone kindly be able to look up baptisms at St Margarets between 1876-1880. His fathers name is CHARLES and his mother SARAH.
I do apologise if anyone is wearying of my ALLEN search. I am so very keen to get to the bottom of this mystery.
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Hi,
I found this marriage,
Charles Byron ALLAN Jun Q 1881 Leicester 7a 437
Sarah JENKINS
Annie JOHNSON
John MATTHEWS
Regards
Daisy
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Hi,
I found this marriage,
Charles Byron ALLAN Jun Q 1881 Leicester 7a 437
Sarah JENKINS
Annie JOHNSON
John MATTHEWS
Regards
Daisy
Thanks Daisy. I wonder if this was the same Charles B Allan who is mentioned as being born in Toronto (post a few previous to this one). Interesting.
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Hi HistoryFan,
I have a freebie disk that lists baptisms at St. Margaret's Leic upto 1878. I haven't been able to find anyone that could be your William Percy unfortunately. I tried all combinations I could think of re: with or without a middle name/initial, surname Allen, surname Jenkins, surname anything at all, father Charles, single mother Sarah etc. etc.
Hopefully someone else that has additional records upto 1880 will see this and be able to find him for you - Good Luck.
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Hi HistoryFan,
I have a freebie disk that lists baptisms at St. Margaret's Leic upto 1878. I haven't been able to find anyone that could be your William Percy unfortunately. I tried all combinations I could think of re: with or without a middle name/initial, surname Allen, surname Jenkins, surname anything at all, father Charles, single mother Sarah etc. etc.
Hopefully someone else that has additional records upto 1880 will see this and be able to find him for you - Good Luck.
Thank you so much for looking through your records and with all the variables. I really do appreciate it.
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Have you considered that Charles, Sarah and William may have gone over to Canada after their (possible) marriage? Have you looked on Find my Past for shipping records? I wonder if they were over there until mid 1890s or even later, and William came back alone to join up. By 1911, Charles would have been 75 (if 1881 census is him). He and Sarah may have died in Canada or wherever else they may have gone and the next of kin address may have been out of date. Perhaps if you post on the Canada board, someone may find them there :-\
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In answer to your earlier question on how far apart are St. Mark's and St. Margaret's - not very far at all.
St. Mark's is somewhere in Belgrave Gate - I googled this and then asked google maps to show directions to St. Margaret's Way. Using main roads, not a direct line, and going to the far end of St. Margaret's Way it comes up with a distance of 1.4 miles. I think St. Margaret's is nearer to the city than that so in reality it looks like there is less than 1 mile between the two chuches which strongly suggests that they are neighbouring parishes.
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In answer to your earlier question on how far apart are St. Mark's and St. Margaret's - not very far at all.
St. Mark's is somewhere in Belgrave Gate - I googled this and then asked google maps to show directions to St. Margaret's Way. Using main roads, not a direct line, and going to the far end of St. Margaret's Way it comes up with a distance of 1.4 miles. I think St. Margaret's is nearer to the city than that so in reality it looks like there is less than 1 mile between the two chuches which strongly suggests that they are neighbouring parishes.
Thank you for checking this out. I wonder if St Marks is a possibility I should explore also?
Re-reading with a magnifying glass his Military records the birth place says "St Margs Leicester". At least this is what I thought it said in view of the 1901 Census putting his birth place as St Margarets Leicester.
Could this in fact be St Marks or even St Mary's?
My genealogy is marvellous but can have me scratching my head at times!
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Have you considered that Charles, Sarah and William may have gone over to Canada after their (possible) marriage? Have you looked on Find my Past for shipping records? I wonder if they were over there until mid 1890s or even later, and William came back alone to join up. By 1911, Charles would have been 75 (if 1881 census is him). He and Sarah may have died in Canada or wherever else they may have gone and the next of kin address may have been out of date. Perhaps if you post on the Canada board, someone may find them there :-\
This is a good thought! I will check this avenue out also. Thank you.
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How about the Sarah Mason (38, unmarried, b. Aslock(?), Nottinghamshire) at 8 Court C Humberstone Gate, St. Margarets Leicester in 1881 with a son William, aged 2?
This address is very close to Charles B. Allen's address of Charles Street.
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How about the Sarah Mason (38, unmarried, b. Aslock(?), Nottinghamshire) at 8 Court C Humberstone Gate, St. Margarets Leicester in 1881 with a son William, aged 2?
This address is very close to Charles B. Allen's address of Charles Street.
Thank you for bringing this to my attention. It could well be, and I will check out Sarah Mason a bit more.
Thank you again.
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hello,
I think Sarah Mason marries George Bigley who then dies.
1891 RG12; Piece: 2496; Folio 75; Page 18
has Sarah Bigley with son Willie Bigley 12 yrs
I would appreciate someone checking it .
I have following this and always having another look when there is a new post- it's very frustrating.
I can't seem to find William Allen's military record- would just like to have had a look. Is the Nottingham address his address on discharge or entry to the army?
I was thinking that if it was earlier, then both Charles and Sarah may have died by 1911.
heywood
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hello,
I think Sarah Mason marries George Bigley who then dies.
1891 RG12; Piece: 2496; Folio 75; Page 18
has Sarah Bigley with son Willie Bigley 12 yrs
I would appreciate someone checking it .
I have following this and always having another look when there is a new post- it's very frustrating.
I can't seem to find William Allen's military record- would just like to have had a look. Is the Nottingham address his address on discharge or entry to the army?
I was thinking that if it was earlier, then both Charles and Sarah may have died by 1911.
heywood
Thank you Heywood for popping in too. Yes, I am really scratching my head with this mystery, there seem to be so many variables.
A very kind Rootschatter found William Percy Allen's military record for me on the Ancestry site and it has all fitted in with the information we have so far.
He enlisted first with the 3rd Leicestershire Militia but it's very hard to read what year he enlisted on the scanned form. It gives his birth place as either St Marks, St Marys or St Margs Leicester (due to hard to read writing).
He then moves to the 2nd Leicestershire Regiment in 1899, transfers to Guernsey, and is officially discharged from the regiment in January 1911 due to ill health - it is on the discharge form that the Nottingham address is given and the parents names Charles and Sarah Allen.
To date I've not managed to find William on the 1881 or 1891 Census. He is at Glen Parva Barracks on the 1901 Census, aged 24 born St Margarets Leicester. At the time of the 1911 Census he is in Guernsey with his wife and family, but now he is sited as being 30 and having been born in Nottingham.
His Wedding Certificate of 1904 has Charles Allen (father) Watchmaker noted upon it and that William is in the 2nd Leicestershire Regiment.
So yes a few variables indeed, one being his birth sometime between 1876-1880 (his death certificate on 1st February 1916 has him being 39)
Perhaps this will remain one of life's unsolved mysteries.
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Ive been following your hunt, but have had nothing to contribute.
But I did want to add a suggestion from your last post
He then moves to the 2nd Leicestershire Regiment in 1899, transfers to Guernsey, and is officially discharged from the regiment in January 1911 due to ill health - it is on the discharge form that the Nottingham address is given and the parents names Charles and Sarah Allen................
..................At the time of the 1911 Census he is in Guernsey with his wife and family, but now he is sited as being 30 and having been born in Nottingham.
It is highly possible that his wife filled in the census due to him being ill. She may not have remembered or known where he was born, especially if she has always known his parents lived in Nottingham
Cheers Ted
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Did you ever find out who was at 22 Garden Street in 1911?
I spent quite a time yesterday looking at the couple who were there in 1901 and they too are very difficult to follow back through censuses ::)
Sorry-just read back and you say there is no 22 in 1911
1891 has a Robert and Ann Askew at 22 Garden Street so unless his family lived there briefly between censuses that seems to be another dead end :(
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Hello,
I found him at last- I had seen that one before but for some reason didn't read far enough into it to establish him.
There are one or two points - although they don't help to find him ::) which I think are here:
Enlistment
Birth: I do think it says St Marks for parish
Age: 18 yrs 3 months
Occupation: Coster Monger
Dated: ??? January 18- date has 180 printed and then there is a 9 with blots
Description states ages as 18yrs ? months and is dated ? January 1899
which would give a birth for late 1880
Parents- as named earlier - I'm not sure if they would be current on his discharge but I have no reason/evidence to disprove the date- the writing does look the same as discharge though and your wife is not your next of kin I suppose - :(
other form still dated Jan 1899 - he is a labourer
another form for enlistment to militia 21 November 1899 - age 18 yrs 1 month - but this is dated January 1899 so perhaps should have read 1898 for enlistment date.
I'm not at all sure of these various forms but you would think that on enlistment you would give true age (or older if a means to get in the army) rather than give a younger age so perhaps he was born late 1880.
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hello,
I think Sarah Mason marries George Bigley who then dies.
1891 RG12; Piece: 2496; Folio 75; Page 18
has Sarah Bigley with son Willie Bigley 12 yrs
I would appreciate someone checking it .
I have following this and always having another look when there is a new post- it's very frustrating.
I can't seem to find William Allen's military record- would just like to have had a look. Is the Nottingham address his address on discharge or entry to the army?
I was thinking that if it was earlier, then both Charles and Sarah may have died by 1911.
heywood
I found the Bigley's and Sarah Mason on the 1881 Census. So it pretty much rules out my William being related.
Sarah Mason is on the Census as George's Bigley's housekeeper. He is sited as a Widower and she is a single Housekeeper. So it looks like William Mason was possibly his son and they later married?
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Hello,
I found him at last- I had seen that one before but for some reason didn't read far enough into it to establish him.
There are one or two points - although they don't help to find him ::) which I think are here:
Enlistment
Birth: I do think it says St Marks for parish
Age: 18 yrs 3 months
Occupation: Coster Monger
Dated: ??? January 18- date has 180 printed and then there is a 9 with blots
Description states ages as 18yrs ? months and is dated ? January 1899
which would give a birth for late 1880
Parents- as named earlier - I'm not sure if they would be current on his discharge but I have no reason/evidence to disprove the date- the writing does look the same as discharge though and your wife is not your next of kin I suppose - :(
other form still dated Jan 1899 - he is a labourer
another form for enlistment to militia 21 November 1899 - age 18 yrs 1 month - but this is dated January 1899 so perhaps should have read 1898 for enlistment date.
I'm not at all sure of these various forms but you would think that on enlistment you would give true age (or older if a means to get in the army) rather than give a younger age so perhaps he was born late 1880.
Thanks so much. It really helps to have another pair of eyes looking at the army records. Yes it is strange with his age details and I too thought - wonder why his wife wasn't noted as next of kin initially.
I will see what I can find on the St Marks Parish for births around the 1880 range. I think when I find him I will have to do a victory dance and book a celebratory holiday!
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We will have to join you!
I found something on the internet that said St Marks either opened or joined with St margarets 1872 but can't find any reference to parish records :-\
If you could find them - there might be a baptism to help :-\
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Having no joy with my quest on the St Margarets records - it's pretty tricky being all the way here in NZ :'(
Are there any baptisms at all for WILLIAM PERCY ALLEN at St Margarets Leicester between 1876-1880?
Or a marriage of CHARLES ALLEN TO SARAH ? at St Margarets Leicester around this time frame also?
There was a sister known as NELLIE ALLEN (I wonder if she was born ELLEN?) but I do not know if she is older or younger.
Super hard solving this mystery.
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Hi HistoryFan,
I have a freebie disk that lists baptisms at St. Margaret's Leic upto 1878. I haven't been able to find anyone that could be your William Percy unfortunately. I tried all combinations I could think of re: with or without a middle name/initial, surname Allen, surname Jenkins, surname anything at all, father Charles, single mother Sarah etc. etc.
Hopefully someone else that has additional records upto 1880 will see this and be able to find him for you - Good Luck.
There's nothing at St. Margaret's up to 1878 but I don't have the data for the next 2 yrs, nor any marriage data.
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Hi HistoryFan,
I have a freebie disk that lists baptisms at St. Margaret's Leic upto 1878. I haven't been able to find anyone that could be your William Percy unfortunately. I tried all combinations I could think of re: with or without a middle name/initial, surname Allen, surname Jenkins, surname anything at all, father Charles, single mother Sarah etc. etc.
Hopefully someone else that has additional records upto 1880 will see this and be able to find him for you - Good Luck.
There's nothing at St. Margaret's up to 1878 but I don't have the data for the next 2 yrs, nor any marriage data.
Thanks and I so appreciated you looking at the material up to 1878. That was very kind.
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Hello again,
I realise that this isn't going to be much help really but I just had a thought re the Nottingham address.
I wonder if it would be possible to check the Burgess Rolls (voters' lists) to see if there is an entry for 22 Garden Street.
http://www.nottinghamshire.gov.uk/microficheandmicrofilm.pdf has some information.
You would imagine that he gave the address with parents on enlistment rather than discharge but even so the time span is not that great.
Part of me is inclined to think that William just invented one or both parents -probably dad - but then by giving such a specific occupation for dad, I think perhaps not. ???
Likewise, there must be some connection wtih Garde Street- otherwise why give it as a contact address.
heywood
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Thanks Heywood. Yes I think there was a bit of invention going on in William's world there. I will check out the link - thanks so much for it.
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Hello, did you ever sort out this mystery? I am asking because he is on my Netley Cemetery web site and I would like to know more about him. Would that be okay with you?
Take a look at my site and maybe you could write a few details about him for me please? Let me know if I have the wrong details.
www.netley-military-cemetery.co.uk
Best Wishes
Julie
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Thanks Julieg
Thks for your post here and the two direct messages you previously sent asking me if I would like to post on your Netley Website.
I've now just responded via DM with some further information for your website.
Kind Regards
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hi
Revisiting via new replies to posts :)
Its so difficult as Allen is quite a common name and I have no faith that any of the following belongs to your family, but here goes
There is an Allen family living at 22 GaRton Street, Leicester in 1891/01/11 head of household Sarah Allen, widow , children Ada and Robert. She is a grocer (possiblyconnected to coster mongering?)
Also a service record for a William Allen b1888 who married a Fanny Holmes in Dec 1911 in Basford.
Complete red herrings possibly.
Cathy
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Thanks Cath151.
We think from family legend that William may have adopted the surname Allen when he was 17/18 and joined the Militia in Leicester. So it's more of a brickwall than first believed.
I have traced him from 1897 onwards from the time he joined the Militia, then the 2nd Leicestershire Regiment.
He married in Guernsey in 1904 and his 3 eldest children were born there. He died 1/2/1916 in Southampton and his youngest child was born posthumously in March 1916 in Southampton.
Thanks for checking though.
This may need to go into the COMPLETED section as it's too much of a mystery to unravel now that his birth surname is in question.