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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Renfrewshire => Topic started by: orkrad on Monday 28 December 09 03:17 GMT (UK)
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Hi everyone
My ancestor Elizabeth TOLAN/TOLLAN has marriage banns registered in 1853 to a Charles DEVINE in St John's Port-Glasgow. However no official marriage documents appear to have been submitted.
Two children were born of this marriage Catherine in 1853 and Antony in 1867. Antony died aged 2 months . Both children are registered with Charles DEVINE as father
Elizabeth appears in the 1861census as Elizabeth TOLLAN back living with her birth family in Port-Glasgow and with her daughter Catherine and is designated as widow.
I can find no record of Charles DEVINE'S death. Have tried Scotland's people under various permutations on DEVINE/DIVINE/D*V*N for a death in the period 1857-61. Charles gives his occupation as riveter on his son's death cert.
The only near fit is for a Charles DEVINE aged 43 died Greenock in 1861 but the occupation is flesher and the marital status is single.
His death is not listed on the Greenock Library site as far as I can tell.
Any ideas as to where to look for the elusive Charles DEVINE would be most welcome. Of course he may have just "shot through"!
Thanks Orkrad
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hi check out the marriage for Charles Devine and Eliabeth Torrance port glasgow 31st dec 1852 maybe errors
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Thank you for replying after such a long time----I had put this on the back burner as nothing ever came of my enquiry. Yes I think the information you have posted is correct. Elizabeth TOLIN probably sounded like TORRENCE to the person registering the banns. I know quite a bit about Elizabeth but have not been able to find the death of Charles DEVINE . He is a mystery man. Regards Orkrad
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charles was a shoemaker from what i can see, and i know there was at least 2 other devines in greenock around that time that where also shoemakers james and michael devine i came across these
researching my own devines and found the name devine varying a lot as in our case at one point it changed to diver, the devines that where shoemakers appear to have come from the parish of cumber, in fermanagh, ireland,
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I checked Post Office Directories, Greenock
https://www.nls.uk/family-history/directories/post-office/
Found a Charles Devine, Boot & Shoemaker, 38 Vennel in the '53/54, '55/56 and '57/58 editions. Not listed '58/59.
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i viewed those
1 possibilty is immigration 1863 a Charles age 18 assisted passage to australia,
charles appears to have been born 1844 so that fits the bill
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co incidence or what my william devine lived in 44 vennel
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Regretfully I don't think the Charles who immigrated to Australia in 1863 aged 18 was our relative. The Charles Devine I am seeking married in Port-Glasgow in 1852 and I imagine he was of "full age " at that time. His wife Elizabeth reverted to her maiden name by the 1861 census of Port-Glasgow is back with the rest of her birth family and is a widow. She becomes Elizabeth TOLLAN/TOLAN/TOLLAND at various times in other censuses and also sometimes Elizabeth DEVINE.
Regards Orkrad
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Just something to consider. Divorce was not an option for Catholic women so not every "widow" had a dead husband. A husband that left the country and had not be heard from in years could also be thought of a dead.
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My ancestor Elizabeth TOLAN/TOLLAN has marriage banns registered in 1853 to a Charles DEVINE in St John's Port-Glasgow. However no official marriage documents appear to have been submitted.
As statutory civil registration did not start until 1 January 1855, the record of the banns is likely to be the only record that exists.
On Charles' birth certificate in 1867, what date is given for the marriage?
It's very common for a widow to be listed in a census under her maiden surname. Sometimes even married women appear with their maiden surname. This is because legally a woman in Scotland does not lose her maiden surname when she marries. In legal documents she will be named as xxx yyy or zzz, where xxx is her given name(s), yyy is her own (maiden) surname and zzz is her husband's surname. (She will never be listed as xxx yyy zzz - always as yyy or zzz.)
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[quote author=raonull4 link=topic=426765.msg6522243#msg6522243 date=1529489896
1 possibilty is immigration 1863 a Charles age 18 assisted passage to australia,
charles appears to have been born 1844 so that fits the bill[/quote]Not if he married in 1853 - if he was 18 in 1863 he would have been too young to marry in 1853!
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Thanks to all you Rootschatters for your continued interest in finding the elusive Charles Devine. I realised I posted some mis information. The two children of Charles were indeed Catherine and Anthony. Anthony was born in 1857. His birth appears inthe Catholic registers of births and baptisms for the parish of St Johns Port Glasgow. His parents are Charles Devine and Elizabeth Taler/Toler. The sponsers are also named and the priest. There is no other information.
Anthony died at two months ( in 1857) and somewhere I have a record that his mother's name was given as Ptolomy ( which could have been misheard by the recorder). Unfortunately I cannot locate it now on Scotlands People under Statutory or Church records.
Charles Devine still eludes us. Regards Orkrad
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In Scotlands People there is a death in 1857 of an Anthony Divine mother’s maiden listed as PTOLOMEY 574/183 in Port Glasgow. Haven’t accessed the record in case some one else has the details, happy to access if needed, cheers
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Thank you Murphy. I tried to download the record I remembered with the mother as PTOLOMY yesterday but couldnt find it on Scotlands People. I'm glad to know it exists as I wondered if I was having a senior moment.! Regards Orkrad
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You need to use wildcards to catch variations in spelling.
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Hiya
in case it is of use to anyone else, Antony Divine birth record doesn't state parents marriage date?
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And Catherine Divine aged 20 marriage in 1874 in Port Glasgow is not same family as mother listed as Bridget Divine maiden name Tollan, father's first name not listed.
Good luck with your searches
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Antony Divine birth record doesn't state parents marriage date?
No. Birth certificates from 1856 to 1860 didn't contain this detail, but those from 1861 onwards did, plus of course 1855.
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Thanks Forfarian
That’s really interesting, this site is always so helpful,
Cheers Murphyz
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Thanks Murphyz for the detective work. The Mother of the bride Catherine Tollan was Elizabeth Tollan and also known as Bridget ! This makes family history research both interesting and totally frustrating from time to time. Charles Devine has still to be found. On his daughters marriage certificate it says he is deceased. Where and When is still unknown. Regards Orkrad .