RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Carl42 on Saturday 26 December 09 12:59 GMT (UK)
-
Hi All -
Dose anyone know if any records exist for pupils at St John's School, Scandrett Street, Wapping? The period that interests me is early part of the 19c and possibly end of 18c.
Many thanks and season's greetings - Carl
-
If there are any I would imagine they would be held at the LMA, why not give them a call in the new year .
-
Hi
Have you looked at the topic help guide LINKS TO RECOMMENDED RESEARCH GUIDES – CHECK THESE OUT at the top of the London and Middlesex boards? This links to the research guides held at the main London Archives. The one of most interest is probably held by the Guildhall Library on schools. A link in that leads you to the archives held at the Guildhall Library for the St John's Charity School Wapping.
WAPPING CHARITY SCHOOL. (Date of foundation and address unknown) Ms 2654
Administrative records, 1794-1897 (apprenticeship fund accounts only)
From this website also asking about these records
http://www.british-genealogy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37713
'The administrative records for Wapping Charity School .... are interesting. They are catalogued as the Apprenticeship Fund accounts, but in fact they are general accounts for the Trustees of the Charity School, covering 1794-1897. In addition to apprenticeship fees, they include receipts and payments for many other items (building repairs, travel expenses, insurance premiums, property taxes etc.), as well as funds made over to the school on a regular basis.'
The LMA research guides give no indication of the school records they hold.
Regards
Valda
-
(http://i47.tinypic.com/2nqxf2c.jpg)
A snap I took earlier this year
-
Thanks Patrish, Valda ands Quesera - Nice photo!
Valda - I'm struggling to find 'Links to Recommended Research Sites - Check These Out". It is worrying to think that I can't find info even when directed there! Am I a lost cause - or have I just had a glass too many?
Regards Carl
-
Hi
London and Middlesex board.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/board,24.0.html
There are locked help topics at the top of the board - worth looking at
A GUIDE TO BURIALS IN THE LONDON AREA
A GUIDE TO ENGLISH CENSUSES
LOCAL STUDIES LIBRARIES AND OTHER USEFUL ARCHIVES SITUATED IN LONDON
LONDON METROPOLITAN ARCHIVES/ANCESTRY DIGITISATION
REQUESTS FOR PARISH REGISTER LOOK-UPS - IMPORTANT INFORMATION
ENGLISH CERTIFICATES – HELPFUL INFORMATION
A GUIDE TO WILLS IN THE LONDON AREA
LINKS TO RECOMMENDED RESEARCH GUIDES – CHECK THESE OUT
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,403309.0.html
GUIDANCE – PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING ON THIS BOARD
PLEASE MARK POSTS COMPLETED - THIS BENEFITS EVERYONE - PLEASE READ WHY
Regards
Valda
-
Hi Valda and all - Many thanks for all this info - I really appreciate your help. There is much to follow up and this will require a trip to London. In the hope that I can extract even more from this posting may I be allowed to expand things a little further.
James Buckle White was my 2g grandfather. His father (William Samuel White) died in 1839. JBW was finally orphaned in 1842 at the age of 5. WSW died at Anchor and Hope Alley, Wapping whilst his wife (Martha White) died at nearby Tench Street. WSW was a sextant maker, probably trading around the nearby London Docks. There is no sign of mother or son in 1841 (possibly due to missing sections in the census - books 5 and 7 of District 6, St John's/St George's). However in 1851 JBW is found apprenticed to a tailor in nearby Bostock Street (all 3 addresses are a stones throw from each other).
The sort of questions that I am trying to answer are: where was JBW between the ages of 5 and 13 (1842 and 1851)? Who cared for him? Who paid for his schooling (the above addresses are close by to both Wapping Charity School and Raines School)? How might it have been decided that JBW would become a tailor?
I realise that these questions perhaps fall more into the realm of Dockland's Social History, rather than Family History. Any hints/info would as always be most welcome.
Best Regards and Happy New Year. Carl (White)
-
Hi
There is an assumption there anybody paid for any schooling or that indeed he attended a school at all. Board school and a concept of education for all at its most elementary, is still some way away at the time of the 1840s. He may have got some schooling through the church on Sundays. Did he sign his name on his marriage? He certainly learnt a trade so he experienced some sort of apprenticeship, but that may have been paid for by the poor law union if he entered the workhouse as indeed he might have received some elementary schooling from that source.
The known missing pieces for the 1841 census are these
HO107/668 covering St Luke, West Finsbury, Golden-Lane, Old Street and Whitecross-Street
HO107/680 covering Paddington
HO107/690 covering part of Kensington, Brompton and part of Kensal Green
If his father had died his mother may very well be working as a servant somewhere in London and he may be boarded with a family so not necessarily together and not necessarily in Wapping, where if she had family, she might have returned when she was too ill to work. It is at that point he may have been absorbed into part of the extended family or entered into the local poor law union. If so the union would decide on whatever trade they could find for the child and apprentice them out as soon as possible (then they would no longer be chargeable to the rates) - 7 would be a standard age.
Regards
Valda
-
Hi Valda - Many thanks for all your comments, which are much appreciated and as usual provide new insight.
My thinking was that in order to be a tailor he would have required more than basic education, but I suppose this need not be true. He served his apprenticeship with the same tailor as his elder brother William. (William was completing about the time that James was starting his). He did sign his marriage certificate in 1858 and his hand-writing is rather neat. There does not seem to be much point in persuing his schooling any further since from your comments and what I have read, there would seem to be very little chance of finding records for an individual.
Your comments on the missing sections of the 1841 census I find particularly interesting. When I look in 'Ancestry' at "Middlesex - St George's in the East - St John I find just 3 books - '1', '6' and 'Workhouse'. I had always assumed from this that books 2 to 5 must be missing, but your comment says otherwise. Do you think that there ever was a book 2, 3, 4 and 5?
If so little of the 1841 census is missing then why can't I find them? There is plenty of evidence to support that they never left the area -
1839 father died in Anchor and Hope Alley (I have the death cert.).
1842 mother died in almost the next street - Tench Street (I have the cert.).
1842ish son William started apprenticeship at local tailor in Bostock Street at the end of Anchor and Hope Alley.
1851 William and James are both serving apprenticeships in Bostock Street.
It is possible that they moved away in the meantime (1839 - 1842) but the odds must be that they were nearby. Even if they moved away in 1841 they should still show in the census.
Kind Regards Carl
-
Hi
When I searched for example I found a James White of about the right age with a family in the City of London. Might be him, might not be him. Because relationships aren't given on the 1841 census its impossible to tell whether this boy was boarding or not and why he was boarding if he was - placed there because of a private relationship on the part of his mother, or placed there because he was receiving relief from his local poor law union. I did not check further for any other possibilities either of James or his mother. It depends how much you have searched for both of them apart (adult ages, those over 15 are usually rounded down to the nearest 5). A census is one snap shot every ten years on one particularly night. If you are working as a servant you could be living in anywhere in London. However you tend to come home when you are ill to be looked after if possible by members of your extended family or at least friends. Employers tend not to be interested much in nursing ill servants.
There really isn't plenty of evidence they never left Wapping and there are lots of London areas that are close by. Wapping probably wouldn't be the area that would be most fruitful in London if you were looking for a position of servant. It wasn't an area of wealth. Therefore by necessity you may very well not look for employment there. If you want your young son close by you lodge him close by (in affordable terms) to where you are working, not close by to Wapping necessarily if that is further away and possibly not as close as you would like to the area you are working in. If the child is being lodged by the poor law union he would be lodged with whoever has offered to take children for payment.
1839 death of father
1842 death of mother
does not tell you what happened between these two events. An approximately 3 year period is quite a chunk of time.
How do you know in 1842 William began an apprenticeship in Bostock Street? Under the old apprenticeship system which by the C19th was breaking down, an apprenticeship lasted 7 years and was begun around the age of 14.
The list of the known missing pieces of the censuses can be found here
http://www.findmypast.co.uk/helpadvice/knowledge-base/census/#issues
Regards
Valda
-
Hi Valda - Many thanks for your comments.
Yes, I too have found this James (and also Martha age 40 living in Marylebone), but with a name as common as WHITE, just a name and age is insufficient data to form any conclusions. I really need to either find the family clustered together or in a location where they previously or subsequently.
I am at a loss what to make of 'Known Problems with the 1841 Census'. In the last day or so I have looked closely at '1841 Census - Middlesex - St George in the East - St John'. There are just two districts listed. 'District 1' covers streets sandwiched between Ratcliffe Highway and the north wall of the old London Docks. 'District 6' covers a small area currently shown on the London A to Z as 'Gdns' just to the right of Tench Street, Wapping. All the rest of 'St George's in the East - St John' is missing (presumably covered by the missing Districts 2,3,4,5 +possibly more). Why this is not listed in 'Problems with the 1841 Census' I do not know. Furthermore if missing districts in other parishes are anything to go by then a large percentage of the 1841 census is missing and an unrecognised problem.
My next questions are -
Is the information contained in these missing districts completely lost, or is it just missing from 'Ancestry' (but still available somewhere)?
How do we get this 'problem' of missing districts recognised and dealt with?
I am unsure if you are part of 'Ancestry' or not. Perhaps I should raise a new 'post in Rootsweb entitled 'Problems with the 1841 Census?' and invite others to comment.
Kind Regards Carl
-
Hi
I gave the list of missing areas of London from Findmypast not Ancestry, though Ancestry's list is the same - supplied by The National Archives who have gone through the surviving census returns and listed missing piece numbers (enumerator's books), though not necessarily streets which enumerators missed out or pages missing from their books, just where the book itself is missing. So if you think differently you need to contact The National Archives and talk to them about it. They are the ones who filmed the census enumerators books and sold on the rights to the films to the likes of Ancestry and Findmypast who indexed the people on them.
Places are often listed differently under the 1841 census being smaller they come under adjacent place names or under parish names e.g. St something instead of the place and they be incorporated into different areas. The easiest way to tell might be to compare the 1851 census with the 1841 census. As I said before the numbering system does not necessarily indicate a piece is missing.
e.g. Wapping 1851
1a, 1b, 1c, 1d, 1e and the workhouse
St John Wapping 1841
10, 11, 12, 13, 14 and the workhouse
Regards
Valda
-
Hi Valda.
Many thanks for all your help with this, it is very much appreciated.
Kind Regards Carl