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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Derbyshire => Topic started by: Ashie1973 on Wednesday 23 December 09 01:45 GMT (UK)
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Happy Christmas All,
I am researching my family history and have gone back as far as 1809, Cornelius Fulwood (Fullard on 1841 census) from Ilkeston, my Grt x 3 Grandfather (married to Charlotte Harrison). However this is where I hit a dead end and wanted advice on my next steps which I assume is the Parish records in Matlock? I am some distance from there, so wanted to get feedback on possible search options before I travel up to Matlock (3 hours away).
A single entry on the IGI suggests a John Fullard / Anne Beardsley may be the parents, but this is a users pedigree entry from the US, and no source information so I am taking this information with a pinch of salt when no other records so far back this up.
I have also been to the National Archives today to check the BIVRI discs and nothing comes up on those either.
Suggestions welcomed, thank you.
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Hi - and welcome to Rootschat
Yes, you would/do need the parish registers to go back before civil registration starts (1837), however many have been transcribed, check out this site - it seems you can buy copies of transcriptions for Ilkeston which would help you do some more research before viviting the records office
http://www.ilkestonhistory.org.uk/familyhistory%20publications.htm
:)
DebbieG
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Hi
There is a removeal order from Ilkeston dated 1816 to Bilborough, Nottingham for this family. Ref RM7 516
John FULWOOD,
Amy wife,
Sarah,
Thomas,
William,
Alice, Henry,
Cornelius,
Moses.
Found on the this site http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~spire/Yesterday/index.htm
Carol
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Thanks for the replies will check them out.
I wonder if they were naughty family then if they had to be removed? I do recognise, Thomas, Moses William because they crop in various other records but have not linked to my side of the family yet, but could well be sons of John so that is where the link is. My Cornelius (and the others) are listed back in Ilkeston by time we get to the 1841 census (although listed as Fullard) but as yet not proved they are linked to John Fulwood, although this would go someway to suggesting the link.
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Sorry misunderstood what a Removal record was, the Derbyshire Records website carries a database too of the Poor Law Removal Orders.
It is dated 1816 which is find interesting because the 1841 census and the IGI entry which I think shows John to be Cornelius father listed them as Fullard, but this record has the correct name of Fulwood.
The removal was from Ilkeston to Nottingham, but we know that most of the children came back to Ilkeston sometime prior to the 1841 census. I seem to have lost track of John because he does not appear yet beyond this 1816 Poor Law removal.
So I guess my question is to anyone that understands the Poor Law Removal Order is what would have needed to happen for them to return to Ilkeston? Was it something as simple of finding work to provide for the family?
I am going to try and get a copy of the removal order to see what it says.
I still need to find a way of confirming if this Cornelius is my Cornelius, thus making John his father allowing me to go back thatlittle further.
Anyway, wishing you all a Happy Christmas.
Ashley (Fulwood)
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Maybe you already have this information - or it will be of interest??
by 1851 Cornelius was living at lee lane , Langley Derbyshire (nr heanor)
and brother Moses was also in Heanor
there are these burials
Heanor Cemetery (known locally as marlpool cemetery)
Grave no 3127 Cornelius Fulwood buried 11 Nov 1883 age 72
A Miner. Died at Langley, Heanor Derbys
Grave no 3127
Charlotte Fulwood buried 9 Aug 1884 age 75. Relict of Cornelius Fulwood. Died at Marlpool Heanor Derbys
there is also a baptism at St Lawrence Heanor Derbys
John Fulwood born 18/1/1837. baptised 28/6/1837 Parents Moses Fulwood/Mary. Woodlinkin Derbys Father's occupation Collier
Suz
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Removal orders were usually issued when it seemed likely that a person or family might become a charge on the parish, so if the bread winner(s) were ill, died or went absent and it looked as though the parish might have to pay to support the family they would have a hearing to determine where the 'legal place of settlement was' sometimes it was where the head of the family was born, but it could also be the last place that they had formal employment for a year or more. Then rather than pay to support the family they would be sent back to where they came from - in my experience many times familys just didn't go or came back pretty quick but I doubt that they would then recieve any 'help' from the parish that tried to move them.
That's a very simplified explanation - it looks as though the Fulwoods had legal settlement in Bilborough.
:)
DebbieG
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Hi Ashley
I noticed that Cornelius named one of his own children Amy. After his mother perhaps?
There is also a Will for a Moses Fulwood, Carr St, Ilkeston dated 1874.
Carol
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That's a very simplified explanation - it looks as though the Fulwoods had legal settlement in Bilborough.
Thanks for the explanation Debbie.
This is the thing Debbie, so far I have not traced any link to Bilborough, all the family seem to have come from Heanor and Ilkeston, and when I look earlier than 1760 there are plenty of Fulwood's in Ilkeston, and not seeing any in Bilborough, and as I say they were back in Ilkeston by time the 1841 census came around. All very intersting, I wonder if as you say they left but came back quickly.
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I noticed that Cornelius named one of his own children Amy. After his mother perhaps?
There is also a Will for a Moses Fulwood, Carr St, Ilkeston dated 1874.
Carol
That does seem to have been a trend with my family to name children after their parents or even themselves. It is a good question about Amy. The removal order does list Amy, but the IGI records list Anne as the mother so what I still need to do is confirm if this removal order family is the one I am looking for, or another branch of the family.
I found the Matlock records website fascinating and I also came across the will for Moses too so I will check that out too when I can.
Thank you for everyones help :)
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Hi Ashie,
Removal-Examination-Settlement orders, There are a few websites that explain them and as posters on Rootschat have said it is poverty mostly for these orders but what is the best about these orders they give the parish of birth of the father (Or single woman) as they were responsible for wealthfare of these people similar the DHSS today. IGI submissions are not what is commom belief to be false as most cases are right and are checked out but there are odd ones that are wrong but most are right.
Dobby
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Removal-Examination-Settlement orders, There are a few websites that explain them and as posters on Rootschat have said it is poverty mostly for these orders but what is the best about these orders they give the parish of birth of the father (Or single woman) as they were responsible for wealthfare of these people similar the DHSS today. IGI submissions are not what is commom belief to be false as most cases are right and are checked out but there are odd ones that are wrong but most are right.
Hi Dobfarm,
Thank you for this :) What I have discovered with the IGI records is that if they include a batch number and a film reference then it is likely to be accurate and can be cross checked against the original film of the document. My main concern for the record linking Cornelius to John is that it was part of a pedigree file with no Batch reference and no way to contact the original submitter. Obviously I now have a little more faith with this link to this Removal entry :)
Ashley.
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Hi Ashie
Basically what the IGI does gives you an index, that is all it is!
the only trouble is not all Bap's Marr's and deaths are in it, hence a
lot of trees are wrong as novice researchers enter only from this source in their trees and a knock on effect is caused if this info is put in a tree and IGI "it must be right attitude by others". What you can do is check out the dates at Record offices or Libraries but also at your local LDS family history centre (Usually the local Mormon church ) and order a film of the batch number with the original register on film.
What the Submission do also Batch number entries is give you a date then you can then phone the local council Library of that area(Ie;- Derby or Nottingham) for a copy of the event! of their Micro film or fiche record and as most libraries only charge for search for ancestors unknown dates but have usually half hour free look ups and copy service on known dates (Don't have to search but got straight too it). Then you sent a SAE with a cheque ie two Stamps and copy charge about 50p to a £1 = total cost about Max £2 or Lds Libraries £4 to order the batch film and copy charges by LDS about £1 each and less for more copies in bulk say 6 copies.
Phone these place like the council libraries-Archives and LDS near too you for free good advice-If LDS have film batch numbers in stock then you only pay for copies and most large LDS centres hold their area copies of film Ie like Big cities and towns like local council Libraries.
Dobby
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there are these burials
Heanor Cemetery (known locally as marlpool cemetery)
Grave no 3127 Cornelius Fulwood buried 11 Nov 1883 age 72
A Miner. Died at Langley, Heanor Derbys
Grave no 3127
Charlotte Fulwood buried 9 Aug 1884 age 75. Relict of Cornelius Fulwood. Died at Marlpool Heanor Derbys
Thanks Suzard, I had missed your reply earlier and this is great. I like the description of Charlotte 'relict of Cornelius' ;D
I think the website you used also has details of the death's of the children of their son's. One had two daughte
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oops, pressed enter too early.
One had two daughters die in the same year, both about 2 years old. I am guessing that was due to illness.
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Lets sort something out here because Dobbie is in part wrong.
The IGI is in two forms. First there is the extractions which are transcriptions of either the PR's or BT's. Not all are online for a number of reasons. The most common is the PR's or BT's were not allowed to be filmed or copied by the LDS. In my experience of using this part of the IGI it is as accurate as any transcription can be. The other reason not all are online is because the LDS released on CD (well 16 cd's actually) the British Vital Records Index which contains more that are not online.
The ancestral submissions are where the problem lies. These were taken from the returns of the church initially of those families that had had their 'ancestors' baptised after death. In some cases these are great sources but should be treated with a lot of suspicion as they do contain errors and some of them are glowing errors.
If you locate a death on the IGI you can be sure its a submission by a patron because the LDS never did transcribe the death registers.
Yes the LDS Family centres are great places to go if you have one nearby but unfortunately not every area as an LDS library and in some areas they don't like non LDS using them. Before anyone tells me different I know this from Experience with more than one area refusing me access. Where they do you have to order the film with the batch number on which doesn't cost a lot and then you have to pay for the access to the film readers and again that is no large expense.
yes archives will do simple lookups for you but they do ask for a year and parish to go on. If you cant provide that they will offer you the chance to do a half hours research and the cost varies from around £15 to £20 per half hour. If you need that then I would ask for a lookup or hire a professional who will charge between £10 and £20 an hour.
When I started this work there was no computer and all the work was done the hard way. The IGI and the internet as made researching a little easier but the errors that are found now compared to before in pedigrees are far higher because people don't check their information. The IGI extractions I still use today as a guide but I ignore all ancestral submissions. Published family history accounts are ok but again the information needs checking. There are one or two out there for a surname of mine that seem to have everyone in one area of the US with this surname connected to the same family yet when you check the info out there is no connection. In fact one book was written and the authors direct ancestors could not be related to the tree he quoted because the person he 'connects' with never married nor had children.
The motto I tell newbies is check, check, check and the check some more.
Rob
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The ancestral submissions are where the problem lies. These were taken from the returns of the church initially of those families that had had their 'ancestors' baptised after death. In some cases these are great sources but should be treated with a lot of suspicion as they do contain errors and some of them are glowing errors.
If you locate a death on the IGI you can be sure its a submission by a patron because the LDS never did transcribe the death registers.
The motto I tell newbies is check, check, check and the check some more.
Thanks Rob,
Good advice on the checking, which is why I have been unwilling to accept the Pedigree File on the IGI website until I can find other means to provie the source.
Ashley
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Hi
The cost of hiring a film now is £7.50 for 3 months, but you don't pay extra for the film reader. The price has recently gone up. I believe most LDS centres are open to non members, but they do have certain day when it is for members only. If you do decide to go best check first as they all seem to have different opening days and times. The centres and phone numbers are listed on this site
http://www.familysearch.org/eng/library/FHC/frameset_fhc.asp
Carol
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Carol,
That as come down in real terms. 6 years ago was 4.50 for a month and yes you paid 4.50 for the fiche reader as well so am pleased to see they dropped that.
Rob
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Hi
Very detailed, informative and most likely true! but compared to travel cost over 3 hours away from Matlock! LDS Libraries are a cheap alternative. Archives and library free look up service differ a lot and are much more flexable.
ie;-Derby Library
LDS as an Index reference only!! to check from. Bottom line is both correct or incorrect submission entries dates and location that can be checked is better than no info to work from. LDS is only a guide and accept all in it to check from!! or a start point. LDS info was for their own use to re baptise and ancestry first and formost.
As LDS turning people away is not part of the Mormon religion as they want people to try and convert into their religion or at least open their door too people. There will always be odd cases that get turn away & needs reporting to Salt lake city Provo Utah USA. My own view is to help and find not argue over LDS
Dobby ( Not Dobbie)
Microfilm loan U.S.$5.50 60 days*
90 days in Canada*
30 days*
Microfilm loan, 1st renewal Additional U.S.$5.50 Additional 60 days* Additional 60 days (total of 90 days)*
Microfilm loan, 2nd renewal Additional U.S.$5.50 Extended loan, no due date As long as needed
Microfiche loan U.S.$.15 per fiche Extended loan, no due date As long as needed
Outside the United States and Canada, loan fees and loan periods depend upon exchange rates and local policies. Contact your local family history center for current loan fees and loan periods.
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There is a removeal order from Ilkeston dated 1816 to Bilborough, Nottingham for this family. Ref RM7 516
John FULWOOD,
Amy wife,
Sarah,
Thomas,
William,
Alice, Henry,
Cornelius,
Moses.
Thanks for this Carol, I think this as helped a lot. I am still looking to confirm that my Cornelius Fulwood is the one listed here with John being his father. Where I am at now is I have checked the original document which gives the children's ages, and that all links correctly with my Cornelius. On Family Search there is a Pedigree File (no film Batch reference) which links all these children to the same parents, John Fulwood/Fullard and Anne Beardsley, so this suggests it is the right family. However, the only question is over the wife's name. The Pedigree files list Anne Beardsley, the poor law document says Amy.
So I think, and correct me if I am wrong guys, my next step is to gain access to the Pedigree Resource File CD #46 to see if the lady that submitted the pedigree files to Family Search as sourced her work. It was the same lady that submitted the info on all the children, she gives their DOB, Marriage Dates and with all the marriages links the parents which is what I am trying to prove for Cornelius.
The only remaining question then is on the names. The Poor Law order lists Fulwood correctly, however on the Family Search and the 1841 census all the Children put their name as Fullard, but all were back to Fulwood (or Fullwood) by time the 1851 census came around. So my question is why they name change for all of them? Would that have been to get around the poor law removal order to return back to Ilkeston where they were all listed in 1841? If they were all spelling their name wrong, they all corrected it by 1851.
Thanks, Ashley
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Hi Ashley
Glad to hear you got the Removal Order.
My advice would be to check the original PR's. Both the PR's and BT's are available to rent for 3 months. You might find the baptism of John and Amy/Ann which might hold some clues to the name changes. On the IGI Ilkeston is only covered from 1813 to 1835
I have Ilkeston Phillimore marriages and there are a couple more Fullard marriage. The one for John Fullard & Ann Beadsley say he was a coalminer
I don't pay too much attention to pedigree files after I found one of my ancestors had died about 30 years before he actually did.
Carol
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Ashley,
With regards the 1841 census and in fact all census until the 1911.
These are copies of the schedules that no longer survive so the copying may be wrong. Also in 1841 not many people could read and write and therefore the enumerator would ask the name and right what he heard. If your ancestors had a strong accent and the enumerator was from a different place he may have heard fullwood as fullard. It may well be that fullwood was pronounced ass full herd by the family, similar to how southwell is pronounced (suth hill)
Rob
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Just thought I would resurrect this thread to see if anybody can point me in the right direction. To summarise I am trying to trace the baptism/christening record for a Cornelius Fulwood (Fullard on 1841 census) (b1811 Ilkeston, Derbyshire) to prove the father is John Fulwood (b 1765).
The only link to suggest John was the father came from familysearch.org.uk a pedigree submission by June Gail STACEY in the US. However on their records and discs at no point does she verify her source. Lots of other family historians seem to be taking her online entry as gospel without checking for a source.
There is a poor law record from 1816 in Ilkeston that lists a Cornelius Fulwood to be the son of John Fulwood and the other brothers and sisters match, although the wife is listed as Amy, and other records suggest the wife of John should be called Anne Beardsley.
But I went to Matlock and trawled through their records and nowhere can I find any kind of record to show that my Cornelius Fulwood is definitely the son of John Fulwood.
So I just wondered if anybody had any suggestions on how I might be able to verify the father of Cornelius Fulwood?
Thanks.
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My approach would be:
Double check all census data 1841 to 1881, noting that there appear to be 2 Cornelius Fullwoods (or similar spelling) - the second being buried at Heage and married to Sarah not Charlotte.. This should confirm Ilkeston.
Review the new Family Search site. It can be more comprehensive on good data than the old one, and has much of the junk data removed. It is also more useful for detailed searches. I have looked at Fullwood for Ilkeston, and there are many children of John & Amy 1792 to about 1807. All are Ilkeston Baptist and searching the relevant batch year by year suggests the data either has not been indexed or is no longer available for 1808, 1809, 1810.
So - check what Debyshire Record Office holds - their website does have a list of all available non-conformist records, but I can't recall the url and I am afraid cooking duties mean I have to leave this for now.
Family Search does have the marriage to Charlotte, 1830 - worth checking the original for witness names in case that give any hints.
Good luck
PS later realised that the children listed for John and Amy in the Baptism index are the first 5 on the settlement certificate from reply #2.
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Hi,
If you are connected to John & family of the removal order, John would have been born in Bilborough, Nottinghamsire he was probably ill and unable to work so he and his family were sent back to the place of his birth. It is quite likely that he died shortly after the removal, although there is evidence that he possibly had another child in 1820.
On the New Family Search Site, there is a Christening:-
John Fulwood born 9th July 1769 Bpt 7.8.1769 Bilborough Nottingham son of Henry Fulwood & Alice.
When this result appears, you can expand the information by clicking on the small triangle far right. Here
you will also see "Source Film" in this case 504082. If you now go to the OLD Family search site:-
http://www.familysearch.org/eng/search/frameset_search.asp?PAGE=igi/search_IGI.asp&clear_form=true
Under the heading LIBRARY (in blue across the top) select Library Catalogue
When the next page opens click on Film/Fiche Search (blue R/H side)
On the next page enter your Film Number
& at last you will see the full details of where the transcribed information has come from.
1841 Census HO107/189 Book 3 Folio 9 Pg 12 Ilkeston
Fulward Carmie 65 (This looks like Nasmie to me)
Fulward Frances 20
1851 HO107/2126 F 220 Pg 24
Amy is born 1774 Ilkeston
Francis married twice, 1842 to Kezia Beardsley and 1847 to Mary Eyley Trueman, in both cases he states his
father was John Fulwood.
Still cannot find Bpt for Cornelius.
Regards
Spendlove
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I've now found the Derbyshire Record Office list of non-conformist records http://www.derbyshire.gov.uk/images/Non-conformist%20Register%20List_tcm44-194618.pdf . It shows a gap in the records for Ilkeston Baptist for 1809-1812. I do not know why. If there's any evidence the chapel was not functioning for that period, it might be worth checking other possible non-conformist records. The area was strongly non-conformist, so there several posibilities - see the DRO list. I have non-conformist ancestors about that period in Heanor - most baptisms are Heanor, but they range as far as Belper and central Nottingham. So you might need to look over a fairly wide area.
I believe that all the non-conformist records held by The National Archive in series RG4 have now been indexed by BMD registers. Cornelius does not seem to show up in them. It might be worth a look at the TNA catalogue to see which Ilkeston records are in their RG4 collection. The implication is that any they hold are not worth searching, unless you mistrust the indexing.
I think you need to consider what your approach will be if it turns out Cornelius's baptism is untraceable. The circumstancial evidence points strongly to John & Amy. It would be supported if you can show there is only likely to be one other Cornelius Fulwood, (Baptised Pentrich 1805, acording to Family Search) and can separately trace him through marriage to death.
I am not familar with teh detail of removal orders. Do they explicitly describe Cornelius as a child of John & Amy?
The evidence linking John to Bilborough and spendlove's identified christening for him looks solid. It's further helped by John having children named Henry & Alice, ie matching his parents.
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Hi Ashie,
I am a new member and we share mutual ancestry through Cornelious and Charlotte Fullwood.
I am decended from Francis Fullwood born c 1841 in Ilkeston Derbyshire. I would be interested to know who you are decended from. Perhaps we could share information.
Many thanks,
Trish
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I found this all very interesting as I too am a descendent of the Fullwoods. Moses is my 3rdx great grandfather - I think!
I need to read through everything rather than skim it but I too have been having trouble verifying details. Evidence links me back without doubt, to Moses. My mother remembers her gt grandmother, Moses daughter Eliza and her own grandmother Kezia.
Is anyone on Ancestry? You are very welcome to my tree and I would love to see yours!
Liz Manning
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And I have just found a marriage record in my file John Fullard to Anne Beardsley in Ilkeston 1790