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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Yorkshire (West Riding) => Topic started by: onefortheroad on Monday 21 December 09 17:19 GMT (UK)
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Does anyone recognise where this photo was taken?
I believe it to be somewhere in the Bradford area as the balding chap in the centre of the middle row is my Grandad, William Henry Turner. He lived at 62 Cross Lane, Horton and was a corporation tram driver. However, he died in 1929 when my mother was only four and no-one can shed any light on the snap.
In the darkest recesses of my memory, I can vaguely recall my late mother making reference to a Tug-of-War Team............????
She did have a medal at one time, made by Fattarini's, with an inscription which referred to a Tug-of-War competition. Goodness only knows what happened to that!
Anyway,with that in mind, do the faces look familiar? How about the factory/mill buildings in the background? Or the trophy? Or the crazy outfit worn by the 'chap' on the far left?
Any help would be greatfully received and hopefully it may fill in a gap for someone else?
Kind regards, David
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Looks like Listers Mill in Manningham, Bradford - the chimney to the right in the pic :)
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Hi
Thanks for the reply. Not being familiar with Bradford I wouldn't know one mill from another, :-\
But looking at this photo of Lister's Mill taken from a similar angle (found on the web), is the chimney right?
And did Lister's have a second chimney to the left?
It certainly is a large complex of buildings and fairly close to open ground/parkland.
Thanks again
David
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Hmmm looking at your pic, maybe not Listers Mill :-[
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Hi
I think this photo deserves an airing in the Telegraph and Argus which is the local paper for the Bradford area. Just google you'll soon find their homepage.
What time frame do you think this photo was taken?
In otherwords I suppose what I'm asking is...
How old was WH Turner when he passed away?
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I wondered if sharpening up the image slightly might help to see it better ??
(http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/7228/unknownlocation.jpg)
Kind regards,
Pels.
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The lady looks out of proportion. Does anyone else think she was added later?
Nina
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Hi,Folks.
The local paper's a good idea Winston, thanks - I'll get onto that today!
William Henry Turner served with the Royal Field Artillery throughout the First World War. He married my grandmother in 1919 and died ten years later at the ripeold age of 33.
So I reckon the photo must date after 1919 but before 1929.
In the photo he looks a lot older (centre figure, middle row), but they did in those days didn't they.I 'll give some thought to having the picture sharpened up aswell Pels, it would definitely help.
Incidentally, William Henry is the soldier on horseback in my personal picture.I do believe the photo to be original (no later additions) as it has been in an album for 40 years to my knowledge. I reckon the lady on the left is actually a bloke in drag, Nina - goodness only knows what was going on! It's what makes the photo intrigueing.
Regards, David.
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The lady has very big hands and feet? :)
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Yes, she certainly does Ebch, and I'd guess 'she' is well over six feet tall!
David
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Charley's Aunt?
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Good point,Ainslie.
Or it could be a case of Bob's your aunty.
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HI David
Just found something in Ebay
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SOUTHAMPTON-FIRE-BRIGADE-TUG-OF-WAR-SILVER-MEDAL-1908_W0QQitemZ390133060285QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxq20091219?IMSfp=TL091219203002r6074
Was curious if the one in your family was similar you can see both sides by using the images links at the bottom of the main medal
Wendy
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Hi Winston.
Thanks for that, it's just the kind of thing I remember, only Wm Hy's was gold. But the idea and style was the same. If memory serves me correctly, it was mislaid sometime in the 60's while the family were on holiday in Cornwall.
Thanks again. David
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Hi David,
I've been racking my brains on this one because the chap in the centre back row looks like my maternal grandad Earnest Yeadon b 1891 also a tram driver.
Could the building behind the group be where the Fat Pot Liberal club is, at the top end of Horton Park ? That is about the only place in the area that had open space (I'm talking about 50's now so things might have been different in the 20's).
There was an old building there, it might have been a manor house or hall.
Have a look here
http://fatpot-wmc.webs.com/
On a lighter note the man in drag looks like he could have carried the rest of the team :D
Also the taking of photos on a defeated foes territory is a bit like marking ones patch so the place might be miles away ;)
Merry Christmas
Dave
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Hi Dave.
Many thanks for the reply. Sorry I took some time to get back to you - got caught up in family Christmas things.
I've not got much time today for some reason >:(, but I'll post again over the weekend. Found another photo aswell so I'll put that on.
I do hope it is your grandfather on the first photo. That'd be nice!
Thanks again and a Merry Christmas to you and yours.
David
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Hello all & a very Happy Christmas,
I've been having a look around to see what crops up regarding tug of war in the 1900's in Bradford. It led me to the Saltaire heritage site www.saltairevillage.info .
One chap born in 1917 describes competing in tug of war at school in Roberts Park . If you want to view the full article go to the website and go to history club then history articles "I was born in Saltaire in June 1917".
A further image google and I found this, it looks quite similar to me but I'm sure their are some photographic wizards (I'm not!!) who might be able to sharpen and zoom the image to look at the features more closely :)
Fingers crossed this will work... I really am useless at this sort of thing!
All the best
Woodydog
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I don't know about the other posters but I think that your image of Roberts Park is spot on.
I'm no photo expert but I've just looked at both photo on top of each other, so to speak and allowing for the distance of both shots I'd still say they were the same.
Here, have a look at them how I did I only tried overlaying the images cos I wanted to see the skylines together.
(http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n201/winston1970/tugofwarandrobertspark.jpg)
Wendy
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It's looking hopeful ;)
Wendy, you're an awful lot more proficient than me ::) I just kept flicking between the two images in the hope that I'd remember what I'd just looked at!!!!!Fingers crossed....
Woodydog
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HI David
Maybe you could try contacting the following website. I know they say that they started the Association in '58 but the history section goes back to at least 1910 - so someone has the knowlege of finding things out going back at least that far.
http://www.tugofwar.co.uk/index.php?f=data_home&a=0
Wendy
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Morning all.
I trust you all had an enjoyable Christmas Day and Santa was good to you ::)
What a find, Woodydog! You've certainly been busy and I thank you for your efforts. I would say that this is definitely the same mill ,allbeit that my photo appears to be taken from a few paces to the right. But you've found it all right!
I followed the link to the Saltaire village site and read the article by the old chap who lived in Shirley St.
What a fascinating insight he gives into the lives and times of Salts mill and its people. Roberts Park would appear to be the place where all outdoor activities happened and would appear to be be the location for William Henry's tug-of-war competition.
What a cracking piece of computer wizardry Wendy. Do I take it that the mill in the photos is, in fact, Salt's Mill? Never having been, I wouldn't recognise it.
I'll contact the Tug-of-War Association after the weekend and see if they can shed any further light.
Thanks again.
Regards, David.
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Hi Dave the Tyke.
And a Merry Christmas to you.
As you'll have read, I think we've cracked the location of the photo. Have you had any more thoughts re your maternal grandfather? Wouldn't it be great if we could put names to all the characters.
I found another old snap of William Henry and a group of people outside another unknown building.
Is your Grandad on this one by any chance? Again this would be dated in the 1920's but don't know if it's connected at all to the first photo.
Regards, David.
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Hi David
I zoomed in on the signs next to the door -
Hargreaves Fitto... and Mass...Sw...
You need a 20's Bradford telephone directory there might be one on here
www.historicaldirectories.org/
There were one or two faces that were very familiar besides my grandad's on the first photo - he lived in Great Horton most of his life - perhaps I went to school with their grandchildren ? nothing on the second one.
The att. photo was taken a couple of years ago from Roberts park, I think it shows the shorter of the two chimneys.
Dave
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Hi Dave.
With regard to your Grandad living in Great Horton; Wm.Hy. lived at 62 Cross Lane, Horton during the 20's.
My mother, Olwyn Turner, was born there in 1925 but spent a lot of her infancy in hospital. She was born with one leg 1.5 inches shorter than the other and underwent many operations in an unsuccessful attempt to correct the problem. She spent years in calipers with crutches and the end result was a leg that was 3.5 inches shorter. In later years she was a Sunday School teacher at the Apostolic church on Gt.Horton Road and moved to Castleford after she married.
Following Wm.Hy.'s death in 1929, my Grandmother remarried and moved from Cross Lane to 447 Gt.Horton Rd. with new hubby, Arthur Bailey.
Anyway, the signs next to the door ; I've checked the link to the historical directories website, but no joy.
I wonder if a trip to Bradford library in the New Year might be an idea. They may hold phone books for the 20's.
The photo from Roberts Park does show the smaller of the two chimneys. Do you know if the taller stack still stands?
Enjoy the rest of the Christmas holidays.
Regards, David.
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Just had another thought David
if you go to Google maps you should be able to position the view more or less where the photo was taken from or try the same thing on
www. maps.live.com
put Victoria Road, Shipley in the search box
they have a birds eye view
Dave
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Well Dave, I've just spent the last hour playing with googlemaps and maps.live :o and there's no doubt in my mind that Roberts park is where the photo was taken. It must have been on either the cricket pitch or the grassland to the left, at the other side of the trees.
All we need to do now is put names to faces............... what's the chance of that???? :D
How sure are you about your Grandad being on the first photo? That'd be a great start! But I'd love to know who the delectable 'lady' on the left is.
David
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Sorry David, I'm not sure at all. I only remember grandad from when he was in his 60's and older. Perhaps in my distant past I saw the same photo because all the men with folded arms on the back row have 'familiar' faces.
My family also lived in Great Horton Road No 50 and much later at 636 ? or so, that was nearly opposite the White Horse pub.
regards
Dave
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I wonder if the 'fancy gent' was infact a sort of Club Mascot?
Or maybe it was somesort of 'Masonic Lodge' event and that outfit was their society costume.
excuse my thoughts I've had a drink or two.
Wendy
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I think you're definitely on the right lines with your thinking there Wendy. There is indeed something ritualistic about it, isn't there.
Keep having the good ideas............open another bottle!
David.
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Just a thought on when the photo might have been taken and possible traditions... bear with me ::)
In the photo with the cricketers in the foreground you c an clearly see the chimneys smoking in the picture of "Grandad"they don't appear to be so maybe a day when the mill wasn't running. Wakes week , Good Friday, Christmas day (think not as there are leaves on the trees) or a Sunday???? My instincts go more towards Good Friday but that could be because I'm thinking of mummers/ pace egg plays that took place then when gents dressed in all kinds of different attire hence the chap on the left (maybe?).
Had a look for more about Fattorinis they were big supporters of the Manningham rugby club, googling that, one website had photo's of teams wearing very similar looking "running" shoes to the vested chaps on the left of the picture but they would all have the same "vests" if that was the case..... just thoughts to see if anyone else can come up with anything.
All the best
Rose
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A couple more thoughts
Titus Salts was a bit of a stickler for Sunday observance so a Sunday could be a good bet, besides which Sundays and church holidays were the only holidays that working men had. :'(
In Salts mill there is an exhibition of old photos and documents, perhaps they have a record of the event ?
Well spotted for the smoke Rose.
The anchor-man in a Tug-o-war team might well have 'dressed' for the occasion but I can't find a photo to prove it.
Gran always claimed a family tie to Fattorinis and she was never far wrong but I have not been able to find the link ??
Dave :)
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Would it be worth approaching the friends of Roberts park to see if they can shed light on any traditions? Their contact details are on the saltaire website mentioned previously.
Rose
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Hiya Folks.
Some cracking ideas coming through now we've got the festivities out of the way ;)
I hadn't spotted the smoke clue Rose, well done. But looking again at the location, this time with a magnifying glass, I think they must be on the cricket pitch; if you look to the right of the little stocky dapper chap on our right, I think you can just make out the edge of the river, with the trees being on the opposite bank. This would comply perfectly with the 'maps.live' view and put the two chimneys in the correct position in relation to each other........ if you see what I mean :-\
I think contacting the Friends of Roberts Park is a great idea. They may have a history section or something like it. I've looked up the Telegraph & Argos on the web but the only thing I can find re history/readers letters is the one that is a web-based thingy :-[ not a form to have an article inserted in the paper itself.
With regard to when the photo was taken; I'd have thought that a competition for a trophy would probably take place on a feast day or bank holiday rather than on an ordinary Sunday. I may be way out with that but the ritualistic aspect would also point to a more 'significant' day - a once a year type of event that was important enough to employ a photographer.
I say I think a photographer must have taken the snap as the reverse side is laid out in postcard format. This was quite a usual practice for a professional photographer.
As for Fattorini's, I wonder if they would have any order books or the like, going back to the 20's? ::) That would be good.
Anyway, plenty to do tomorrow with emails and phonecalls. Thanks a million for your input so far, folks.
Isn't this website great ;D
David
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the only thing I can find re history/readers letters is the one that is a web-based thingy
Letters to the Editor
Telegraph and Argus
Hall Ings
Bradford
BD1 1JR
tanda.letters@telegraphandargus.co.uk
have a look here http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/tahistory/featuresnostalgiapasttimes/
name and address plus Tel. No. required. max 200 words
Dave
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Thanks for that Dave. How the.....did I miss that? I'd looked at the page but took it to be articles on the web only.
Anyway, I've used the email address you gave me and sent a request for readers' info and attached the photo, of course.
So lets see if it gets any results. Thanks again,Dave.
Regards,David
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Hi all.
Quick update : I've emailed the Friends of Robert Park and the Tug-of-War Association with requests for any assistance which they may be able to offer.
So I wait with baited breath!
David.
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Hi All.
First update of the new year :
Tug-of-War Association kindly replied to my query but, unfortunately, their records do not go back far enough.
On a brighter note, The Friends Of Robert Park passed my email and photo onto the Saltaire History society. They are very enthusiastic about researching the photo. The also mentioned running an article in the Telegraph and Argus - who, incidentally, didn't reply to my email!
I'll keep you informed as and when anything happens.
Regards and a Happy New Year to you all.
David.
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HI David
thanks for the update.
Wendy
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David
I think the Nostalgia section in the T&A might be a weekly item so there is a chance that your photo might still get published. You could always send it again to whoever writes that section. The T&A has quite a lot of readers so it looks like a good option if the others fall flat
good luck
Dave
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Hi David
I currently live in Saltaire so if you would like any photographs of Roberts park and the mill as it stands today, I can attempt some, although we are currently under a deluge of snow so Im not sure how they would look! Or if you need any more local info, I can try and find out
Kind regards
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David,
I've just had a look at the link that I posted earlier and your letter is now on view in the T&A Nostalgia section
Dave
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Hi Dave.
Thanks for the info on T&A Nostalgia section. I've just had a look, thanks to you. Great isn't it - is it purely an internet publication or will the article actually be in the paper? And is there a specific day of the week that it would be in?
Sorry Dave, I'm taking it for granted that you'll know. If not, no probrem! Thanks anyway.
What a kind offer, PurpleCupcake. It would,actually, be nice to have a present-day photo taken from the same place as the old one. I had thought about visiting Roberts Park for that purpose sometime in the future but if you get the chance....
If you feel like I do about this weather, you'll not be venturing out till this lot's gone! There's no rush for the photo - anytime that's convenient. It'll be much appreciated.
Thanks all. Will keep you updated.
Regards, David.
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Hi David,
We only get the T&A only very occasionally so I don't know much about it but I am assuming the letter would have been in Mondays edition (the date on the internet posting). If I can shovel enough snow away I'll try and get next Mondays edition, there may be a reply or two.
Dave
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Cheers Dave.
That,d be great, fingers crossed.
David
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Hi Dave.
Thanks for the info on T&A Nostalgia section. I've just had a look, thanks to you. Great isn't it - is it purely an internet publication or will the article actually be in the paper? And is there a specific day of the week that it would be in?
Sorry Dave, I'm taking it for granted that you'll know. If not, no probrem! Thanks anyway.
What a kind offer, PurpleCupcake. It would,actually, be nice to have a present-day photo taken from the same place as the old one. I had thought about visiting Roberts Park for that purpose sometime in the future but if you get the chance....
If you feel like I do about this weather, you'll not be venturing out till this lot's gone! There's no rush for the photo - anytime that's convenient. It'll be much appreciated.
Thanks all. Will keep you updated.
Regards, David.
No problem :) It might look quite atmospheric in the snow, I have this weekend free and I want to have a wander down to have a look anyway. Ill get some photos for you and eventually (when the weather clears) I can get some clearer ones too!
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That'll be great PCc. I gather you've still got plenty of snow over there. Ours is just about all gone, thank goodness!
Take care,
David
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David
I had a look at todays T&A there was nothing in there so either the Nostalgia section is on a different night or it is web based
Dave
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Cheers Dave.
Thanks for that.
David