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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: ggrocott on Sunday 20 December 09 20:18 GMT (UK)
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I have been looking for the baptism of Dorothy Lewis in order to find out who her parents were. According to the 1851 census she was born in 1769 in Tidenham, Gloucs.
She married Arnold Thomas in Chepstow on 6 Jan 1799 and died in 1859 also in Chepstow. I have found transcripts of the marriage and burial on http://www.forest-of-dean.net. I think the marriage took place in the Chepstow Parish Church, presumably Church of England. However, the burial record at Chepstow Municipal Cemetery shows that the officiating minister was Roman Catholic.
Does this indicate that Dorothy was Roman Catholic and if so where should I be looking for a baptism?
Her husband died in 1853 but I have been unable to find a record of his burial.
Any help would be much appreciatd.
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Hi,
I have a similar situation in my family and I think this was quite a common occurrence.
My gt grandmother had both a CofE and a RC marriage - although I think the RC one was more of a blessing as some of her children died in infancy and the Priest told her it was her fault because she didn't get married in the right church. Her father who I know was definitely RC was baptised RC, married after Banns in the Established Church but was buried as a Catholic. His older brother and their parents were married according to the Rites and Ceremonies of the Catholic Church.
I understand that many Catholic couples married as CofE in the 19th century as I think they believed the marriage would not be valid unless they were married in the Established Church because of Hardwickes 1754 Marriage Act. They then proceeded to bring the children of the marriage up as Catholics as would be shown in baptism and burial records.
There is an interesting article on Roman Catholic marriages in Manchester in the 19th century on this link:-
http://www.manchester-family-history-research.co.uk/new_page_12.htm
It basically says that prior to 1908 getting married outside the Catholic Church did not go against the teachings church. You have to scroll down quite a lot because it is at the bottom of the page.
Hope this helps and in your case I think it does indicate that Dorothy was Roman Catholic.
Luzzu
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Just read that piece on the Manchester Family History site re RC Marriage and the Ne Temere decree in 1908. I think the writer had a poor understanding of the decree. It does say that the marriages of people not baptised into the RC Faith are valid but really it is reinforcing its previous teaching. Perhaps someone on here could explain it better.
By the way there is St Mary's RC Parish Church in Chepstow so maybe the wedding took place there. I do not believe a RC priest would ever have been allowed to perform a marriage in a non RC Church. There again, anyone more qualified than me to answer?
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Hi,
It is certainly a complicated subject and although I am very interested, beyond the basics I am out of my depth so I too really hope that someone more qualified will step in and answer as it affects my family too.
I do know that my family situation and the one you describe doesn't seem unusual in the 19th century.
I seem to remember from somewhere that when you see a marriage as "Registrar Attended" this would indicate that it took place in a RC Church.
I too don't believe that a RC Priest would conduct a marriage in a non RC Church so if the marriages took place in a CofE church they would not have been RC marriages.
Luzzu
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It was common in the eighteenth and nineteenth century for Catholic couples to have two services, a Catholic marriage to satisfy their religious beliefs and a service in an Anglican church to satisfy the civil authorities. As time progressed the practice became less and less common. Initially Catholic marriage was not regarded by the state as legal, [unless it took place in Ireland or abroad] so in order to ensure that children could legally inherit etc. it was necessary to have the state sanctioned marriage which was only available initially through the Anglican church. [Although having said that, quite a number of Catholic couples seem not to have bothered with the non-Catholic ceremony]
Once it became possible to have the civil registration alongside the Catholic ceremony [registrar attended] then the need for the Anglican ceremony diminished. However there was the added complication of "mixed" marriages - Catholics marrying Anglicans - which also often resulted in two ceremonies.
All of the above is a simplification of what happened, there were all sorts of complicating factors, family and local custom, fashion, the attitude of individual priests and the advice they gave their congregations, to name just some.
jds1949
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Thank you jds1949.
You explain it very well :).
Luzzu
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some of her children died in infancy and the Priest told her it was her fault because she didn't get married in the right church.
He What ....?! (http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n201/ptpc/icon_eek.gif)
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Its true - my gran (her daughter told me) - 3 of her sons died aged 4 months, 6 years and 7 years.
:( :(
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Thank you all for the information. This is the first time there has been any trace of Roman Catholicism in the family so I am rather out of my depth on this one - will obviously have to investigate further - can anyone tell me where I should start looking for records?
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Hi ggrocott
The same thing happened to me several years ago, and startled me considerably!
Anyway - to cut a long story short, I learned that RC records have normally not been handed into records offices, but are still with the churches. You need to identify and approach the churches where your ancestors might have had their ceremonies and see if they will allow you access to search their records.
It will be up to the individual church what answer you get. I was really lucky with mine - they turned up at St James' Spanish Place in London, and that church searched its records and sent me everything they found (I am not in Britain). I am very grateful to them!
My ggggrandfather certainly had both a Catholic and Anglican marriage to his first wife.
Catholic registers do not seem to exist before about 1780 so you might hit a brick wall there - I have. Also they do not seem to have burial registers, just baptism and marriage registers. I am not sure why this is.
MarieC
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There appears to be a Gloucestershire Catholic History Society
http://www.cliftondiocese.com/gloucestershire-catholic-history-society-latest-journal-out-now
Might be worth contacting them to see if they know what survives in the way of records for Chepstow/Tidenham.
jds1949
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Thank you. I will do that.
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Hi All I found the Roman Catholic discussions forum very interesting, I have previously posted that I have come to a dead end with my ancestor John Foulser who married Mary Lamborn in St George Hanover Square Mayfair in 1752, this is a RC church, and like many London Church's all there details have been sent to public records office's, I have had no luck finding John or Mary's birth or death details, which as we all know does help. I can now try a different way forward, has anybody got any other suggestions? Roger
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I don't think that St George's Hanover Square was a Catholic church, although that doesn't mean that Catholics didn't marry there.
Records of Catholics in London dating from the 18th century are relatively rare. The Catholic Family History Society has produced transcriptions of the registers of the Neapolitan Chapel, the Imperial Chapel and the Venetian Chapel which all date from the 18th Century. These were all chapels attached to foreign embassies and therefore immune to Government action and all three were used by London Catholic families. However I can't see any references to any Foulser families in any of them.
The only central London Catholic chapel open and functioning during the time period in which you are interested would seem to have been the Mission at Lincoln's Inn Fields [SS Anselm & Cecilia] - which was under the protection of the Sardinian Embassy. This has also been transcribed, but the registers date from a latter date than the one you want, see:
http://www.parishregister.com/parish_shop/product_detail.asp?ID=3476&CatID=289
However I think that baptisms from an earlier date for this chapel were transcribed by the Catholic Record Society and should be available at the Metropolitan Record Office, or possibly through inter-library loan. *
The basic problem is that for the time that you are looking at Catholics were considered to be of doubtful loyalty and open practice of their faith was, to all intents and purposes, illegal. In areas of the country which were far from the Government in London, such as Lancashire, there was a reasonable degree of toleration, but in London life for those of the Catholic faith was difficult. As there were no churches as such baptisms carried out by Catholic priests were recorded in his personal book, if they were recorded at all and consequently few, if any, survive.
Sorry to be so pessimistic,
jds1949
*UPDATE - you can download this volume free from: http://ia301514.us.archive.org/2/items/publicationscath11unkwuoft/publicationscath11unkwuoft.pdf
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Hi Jds
Like you, I did not think there were many Catholic churches in London at that time or anywhere else come to that, Henry the V111 sorted that out. I just checked out the site on google, it quotes that the building was created from a design by John James as a result of a Parliamentary act in 1711, it also features a painting of the last supper 1724. I am not aware of the religion of either John or Mary, I can only guess that one of them was religious of some description, having checked other Foulsers in the Norfolk area, they did all tend to get married and have the kids christened, which does not happen very much in today's society. Until I read the forum comments, I had not paid much heed to the religious side of a family tree. I only live twenty miles from the church , I will call in and have a look round, Thanks very much for your Input. Roger