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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: carol18 on Saturday 19 December 09 19:32 GMT (UK)
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My 3xGreatgrand father Richard Fowler born abt 1776 was on the 1841 census
in Birmingham.uk but said he was born out of county,so was not born in Birmingham.As he died in 1845 so would not be on the 1851 Census.
So i don`t know where he was born.He was married to Ann.
Any ideas how i can find out,i would be grateful for the help.
Thankyou
Carol18
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Have you found his marriage to Ann in the parish records? If you are lucky, it might give his parish of residence at the time of the marriage if he was not local (tho' of course this may not be his parish at birth). But as you only had to be resident in the parish for a few weeks to counts as "of this parish" it's just as likely that you won't. I have several fellows like this, just appear, marry a local girl and die without leaving any hints of where they came from. :-\
Ermy
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Hello Ermy,
I have not been able to find a marriage for Richard and Ann in Parish Records
I have a marriage for one of his sons John born in 1830,it says Richard was
a shoemaker,That is all i know.
Thankyou
Carol18
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Hi
The 1841 census yes or no question about birth is born in or out of county. Richard says no so if that is correct he wasn't born in Warwickshire. Richard's age on the 1841 census was given as 65. Adult ages on the 1841 census, those over 15 were usually given to the nearest 5 below the actual age, so again if Richard is accurate with his age it could be anywhere between 65-69. His burial record or death certificate would give a more accurate age. Richard gives his occupation as shoemaker. Ann aged '55' gives her birthplace as Ireland or since it is only a capital letter that denotes birthplace it could be an S for Scotland.
There is this Ann Fowler on the 1851 census who might be the same woman
1851 census HO107 2055 folio 230
31 Howard Place Birmingham
Michael Casey 37 Head Married Bricklayers labourer Ireland
Martha Casey 31 Wife Married Birmingham Warwickshire
Sarah Casey 8 Daughter Birmingham Warwickshire
James Casey 6 Son Birmingham Warwickshire
Martha Casey 4 Daughter Birmingham Warwickshire
Henry Casey 3 Son Birmingham Warwickshire
Emma Casey 6 Months Daughter Birmingham Warwickshire
Ann Fowler 67 Mother Widow Receiving parish relief Ireland
MICHAEL CASEY
MARTHA BUCKLEY
Marriage: 11 APR 1842 Saint Martin, Birmingham, Warwick
Just a stab at this but shoemaking was a quite common occupation for ex soldiers particularly those that had been wounded and wives who were born in Ireland might indicate that was where they met, in which case again that might be because Richard Fowler was a soldier at one time. His death certificate may or may not give further information. Of course many people arrived from Ireland and lived in Birmingham and many shoemakers had absolutely no connection with soldiering so it is only an option to consider.
Are these also children of Richard and Ann? What occupation in the baptism register is given for their father?
RICHD FOWLER
Birth: 10 FEB 1820
Christening: 26 MAY 1821 Aston Juxta Birmingham, Warwick
Father: RICHD FOWLER
Mother: ANN
THOS FOWLER
Birth: 05 FEB 1821
Christening: 26 MAY 1821 Aston Juxta Birmingham, Warwick
Father: RICHD FOWLER
Mother: ANN
ANN FOWLER
Birth: 31 MAY 1822
Christening: JUN 1822 Aston Juxta Birmingham, Warwick
Father: RICHARD FOWLER
Mother: ANN
Regards
Valda
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Hi Carol
A really hard one to find
I am a Fowler as you can see but mine come from Yorkshire. Unfortunately because its the 1700's its very skimpy on information unless you know where they were born. I looked through the marriages of a Richard Fowler to a Ann in the 10 years he might have married between 1791 - 1801 and there is only one Ann who was Ann Waring they married on 27/05/1793 and it states he was born 1768 in Leyland, Walton le Dale, in Lancs. I also looked at deaths in 1845 and there is a Richard died in 1846 whose wife was Ann in Yorkshire.
So its just flimsy information I know as to whether this is your Richard.
As you might know the ages are very iffy in that time as some peeps made their own ages up as they either didnt know or didnt want to seem old lol.
You might look for Yorkshire Strays who are on the 1841 or say Lancashire strays to see if you can find him in Birmingham.
Hope you can find him
regards Sandymc
p.s. just ;posted and someone has given more info soz
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Hi Valda,
I have Richard Fowlers Death certificate for 1845 which states he was aged 69 and a Shoe maker,his daughter Martha was the informant.
Yes that is Ann on the 1851 Census.
I don`t know if them are Richards Children but i will certainly look them up
at the Central Library In Birmingham.
Thankyou very much.
Carol18
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Hi Sandy,
Thankyou for the message,i have Richards death certificate,he died in
Birmingham in 1845 age 69.
So whether he came form Yorkshire i don`t know,i don`t think i will ever
find out.
Its funny there does not seem to be any children with Richard and Ann
in 1841.Mind you they were getting on a bit.
Thankyou once again.
Carol
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Hi
If that is Ann on the 1851 census then she either married as a widow - Ann Casey or her son Michael was born illegitimately. Either way she was certainly in Ireland circa 1814 and the marriage to Richard Fowler is likely to be with an Ann Casey. If the early 1820s baptisms in Birmingham are to the same couple then they had arrived in Birmingham by that date.
Most men who served in the army did not serve long enough to recieve a pension so their records are much harder to track. These are the Richard Fowlers who did receive a pension and might fit your age profile though the last one would have been discharged to early to have met Ann in Ireland and only the second one would have been discharged sufficiently early to be in Birmingham by the 1820s if he was not serving there.
WO 97/655/112 RICHARD FOWLER Born KINGSWOOD, Gloucestershire Served in 52nd Foot Regiment Discharged aged 46 1799-1821
WO 97/1144/325 RICHARD FOWLER Born PETHERTON, Somerset Served in 8th Foot Regiment; Cambrian Rangers; 3rd Garrison Battalion Discharged aged 37 1797-1816
WO 121/222/896 RICHARD FOWLER. Born [Not Known]. Served in 3rd Garrison Battalion. Discharged aged [Not Known]. Original certificate of discharge missing. See film image . 1832
WO 121/101/71 RICHARD FOWLER Born CROOME, Worcestershire Served in Essex Fencibles; 66th Foot Regiment Discharged aged 33 after 15 years of service Covering dates give year of enlistment to year of discharge. 1794-1809
If John Fowler was born circa 1830 you might have expected him to be with his parents on the 1841 census or with relatives. When do you first find him on censuses?
Did he marry in an Anglican or Catholic church?
Regards
Valda
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Hi Valda,
Ann Fowler should have read Mother-in-law,Ann was the mother of Martha Casey nee Fowler.But Martha was also a widow she was Martha Buckley
before she married Micheal Casey.
I wondered why there was no children on the 1841 Census i first found
John on the 1851 Census with Harriet Fowler born abt 1837 whether it was his sister i don`t know.
John Fowler married Ann Preston in 1852 at St.Phillips church in Birmingham.
Thankyou for taking an interest i really appreciate it.
Thankyou
Carol18
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Hi
The marriages all seemed to be on the IGI (including one for a possible Harriett). If you have access to the parish registers at Birmingham Library I would check all the possibles to see what information they give, since the baptisms don't seem to be there, which is why I was questioning whether the family through Ann was Catholic.
Regards
Valda
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MS 20/280 A&B 1829 in Birmingham archives.
Extracted words in the doc "Richard Fowler the younger and Richard Fowler the Senior of Ashton"
Put -A2A -in Google search
put -Richard Fowler Birmingham- in the Access to Archive search engine
Then look for the number above
There loads on the Chap. 800 plus pages
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Hi
Birmingham was a city so you have to expect more than one of people with the same name. The documents are for a much richer Richard Fowler and his company, probably the man aged 58 on the 1851 census at Gravelly Hill Aston who was aged 58, a land agent and farmer employing 5 men and born Aston (Erdington on the 1861 census). His son Robert, still living at home, was a auctioneer. There were 5 servants in the household.
e.g.
Richard Fowler and Sons, surveyors and estate agents of Birmingham
'Diary of Richard Fowler, jun., of Gravelly Hill House, Erdington. MS 20/352 A 1813
Deed of partnership for carrying on the malting business between Richard Fowler, the younger, of Erdington and Charles Machin, the younger, of Erdington, 1833. Also Messrs Fowler and Machin's bills and receipts for malt. MS 20/352 B 1833-1866
Deed of partition of the residuary estate of the late Mr. Richard Fowler. MS 20/353 1871
Papers concerning the estates of Richard and Sarah Fowler; including the probate copy of the will of Richard Fowler of Nechells Park House 1875, an office copy of the order for partition of the tithe rent - charges for Erdington, Bordesley and Little Bromwich between Frances Fowler and Josiah Yeomans Robins 1875. and the probate copy of the will of Mrs. Sarah Fowler of Weeford Lodge, Erdington. 1904. MS 20/354 1875-1904'
There seems no connection with Richard Fowler the shoemaker who died in 1845.
RICHARD FOWLER and ELIZABETH JAMES
Marriage: 23 APR 1778 Aston Juxta Birmingham, Warwick
Children baptised in Aston - Mary 1779, Elizabeth 1780, Richard 1791, William 1795 and Ann 1799
Regards
Valda
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Hi Valda,
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=425671.new;topicseen#new
No harm done pointing A2A out! even if its the wrong Richard but if only for Elimination! This I find can be as good as a positive find sometimes by find as much info and connection with familes, the poor-rich-trades people and on. Trade directories may help with Shoemaker. If the families of Richard or Ann can be found if any are in Birmingham area in the census Ie a brother as a shoemaker or father.
Hi Carol this link may help you.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,358572.0.html
Regard Dave
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Hi Valda,
Thankyou very,very much for trying so hard to help me find Richard
i am very grateful and appreciate you using your time to look for me.
Many Thanks
Carol
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Hi Dave,
Thankyou for trying to help i will look at that website.
Many Thanks
Carol
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Hi Carol,
As the post link says there are great minds on Rootschat! and here on your thread is a example! with Valda! Vast Knowledge in ancestry. Also things do turn up from most unexpected places with a bit of gap filling.
Best of Luck! I'll be going down to Warwark ( & archives) when I get back to Yorkshire from NewZealand -March! and see if I can find anything
Regards Dave -Merry Xmas
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Merry Christmas Dave and thankyou.
Carol
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RICHARD FOWLER and ELIZABETH JAMES
Marriage: 23 APR 1778 Aston Juxta Birmingham, Warwick
Children baptised in Aston - Mary 1779, Elizabeth 1780, Richard 1791, William 1795 and Ann 1799
This couple are ancestors of one of my sons-in-law through William Fowler (who I have born in 1784 rather than 1795) and his wife Hannah Powell of Dudley (1795-1878). I am aware of the extensive records in Birmingham but do not live in the area to access them so would appreciate any further information on this Fowler family that anybody has.
The Ann Fowler bn 1799 married Dr George Bodington (1799-1882), a member of the extensive Bodington family of Cubbington and Kenilworth and on whom there is much information on the internet. Ann and George were the ancestors of the lawyer Oliver Eaton Bodington (1859-1942) and of the possible double agent Nicholas Redner Bodington (1904-1974).
William Fowler and Hannah nee Powell's eldest son William Fowler Junior (1818-1887), a land surveyor, married another member of the Bodington family, Sarah Hannah Bodington (1823-1900).
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Hi Carol
Why not try Tephra's Scavenger Hunt by appointment
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,358572.0.html
Now't too loose
Theres a gang of poster helpers that specialise in 'crash brickwalls down' & they may find Richards county of birth by censuses lookup of family relo's
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Hi Dave,
Thankyou very much for telling me about the scavenger Hunt,i am really
grateful.
I have sent Tephra a PM to add my name.
Best Wishes
Carol
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Hi Again
Just to give an idea how it works!
One looks at all possible marriages known! near also afar as well as known. IGI of Richard's and Ann's then try and put families to each one for elimination from the hunt! but if a few people from different parts of the country cover their area. Then the other way is finding a Richard & Ann Married in censuses where no marriage can be found!** then look at siblings of that couple that have same names as your Richard. Ie say your Richard & Ann had a Gertrude bapt 1840 in Warwickshire and another Richard and Ann in Kent had a Gertrude bapt 1845 also the marriage can't be found for this couple as well as yours. This other couple are eliminated and assuming there a no infant deaths
Thus can look for known and unknown marriages to eliminate (Linking to find Ann maiden name)
Then find their Bapts (Richard and Ann ????)
And so on! slowly whittling down the other Richard Ann marriages
Best of luck
Good hunting
Dobby
Heir hunter companies use this method.
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Hi
I would also suggest putting a new topic on the Warwickshire board as this topic is about Richard Fowler the shoemaker. You may find there are others there who are interested in your Fowler family and who have knowledge and access to Warwickshire records. Scavenger hunts by necessity are Rootschatters scouring internet sources (which tend to be poorer for periods pre C19th) and do not necessarily involve anyone with local knowledge of records. Don't post on Warwickshire and the Scavenger hunt at the same time because of overlap.
Are you sure you have made the correct connection to the William Fowler in Birmingham son of Richard and Elizabeth baptised 1795 not 1785?
WILLIAM FOWLER
Christening: 11 MAR 1795 Aston Juxta Birmingham, Warwick
Age at Christening: 1
Father: RICHARD FOWLER
Mother: ELIZABETH
Have you used some of the Birmingham and Midland for Genealogy and Heraldry (local family history society) search services? e.g.
Aris's Birmingham Gazette Obituaries 1741 - 1861
http://www.bmsgh.org/search/sea1.html
With such a prominent family you would expect their deaths to have received obituaries. Knowing their date of deaths if you don't already means you can search for wills.
Post 1858 wills were probated nationally
http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/cms/1176.htm
Pre 1858 most wills for Warwickshire people (wills were proved in church courts) were either proved in the Dioceses of Worcester or Lichfield. For Birmingham you would expect most wills to be held at Lichfield Record Office (sorry website down at the moment of posting but can be found easily through Google). Have you contacted Lichfield R O to see what they hold?
The BMGH would also know of local members who undertake research in archives and do so relatively cheaply and efficiently which if there are extensive records in Birmingham Archives for the family might be a way forward.
Regards
Valda
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Hi
As Valda says making sure you have the right Richard to work back from in the 1841c. Birmingham is a large city even those days and covers a few counties, non more so than Lichfield with corners of Warwickshire, Staffordshire Herfordshire and even Derbyshire all very near. East of Birmingham between Birmingham and Warwick town/city is Worcestershire with a pointed triangle going up near Lichfield way and all these county corners could be concided part of Birmingham out parts.
Dobby
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Richard may have come from one of the villages outside Birmingham which was in one of the surrounding counties such as Staffordshire or Worcestershire. It may be a good idea to see if there are any Fowlers around Richards age in the area in 1841 to see if they also say they weren't born in county. And you could also look at them in the same area your Richard lived in on the 1851 census to see what their birthplaces say.
I have a Smith ancestor who died in 1849 and he said he was not born in county in 1841. My 4xgreat grandmother was on the 1841 census in Marylebone, London and said she was not born in county and she died just weeks before the 1851 census. Sarah Bradford her name was, previously Coombs and her maiden name is unknown.
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a maybe
Richard Fowler bapt 1777 Bridnorth Shropshire West Birmingham found on the net!
Gen*s R*un*ted ( Expensive website and no proof of source) website no parents given! contact link below could be bapt abode place Dillon Priory!
Confirm with Links FHS below or Bridgnorth Library address online
X X
ANN WILKINSON
Marriage: 22 OCT 1810 Oadby, Leicester, England
Confirm Leicester Library or FHS again addresses online
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~acwager/html/Shropshire_Addresses.htm
http://www.virtual-shropshire.co.uk/visitora/family_history.shtml
http://lrfhs.org.uk/
http://www.sfhs.org.uk/
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Hi
A long shot but I found a Thomas Fowler in Birmingham in 1851 born Bridgnorth Shropshire.
A Richard Fowler was born in 1777 in Helaugh, Yorkshire and wed an Ann Gibson in Tadcaster about 1810. Possibility.
Ben
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Hi
Richard Fowler born abt 1776 who states not born Warwickshire on the 1841 census. I would first check with the BMSGH marriage index to see whether the marriage between Richard and Ann can be found in the Birmingham area or not before going further afield.
They hold
Greater Birmingham Marriage Index 1776-1837, and Warwickshire, Staffordshire and Worcestershire marriage indexes and therefore have a much completer picture than the IGI gives
The IGI (free) alone gives 9 Richard Fowler baptisms within one year of the date 1776 including one in Staffordshire - Alston Field which is about 17 miles away from Birmingham (absolutely no proof that is the correct one). Bridgnorth in Shropshire is by no stretch of the imagination in West Birmingham, but Shropshire is a county now termed in the West Midlands. Bridgnorth is about 25 miles away from Birmingham but the 1777 baptism seems to be the one on the IGI in Ditton Priors close to Bridgnorth but further west (33 miles away from Birmingham). This Richard had 7 siblings baptised in Ditton Priors between 1767-1782 (no Thomases - there was one baptised in Bridgnorth in 1791 to different parents).
As Bridgnorth is to the west of Birmingham, Oadby in Leicestershire is to the east and 40 miles away in that direction.
I think with a relatively common name like Richard Fowler it is better to start from what is known and check through the baptisms for the children in Birmingham to see when the first child is baptised there to get a firmer date for the marriage and see what the BMSGH indexes come up with as not all the Birmingham parishes are covered by the IGI. The baptism would also confirm whether Richard was always a shoemaker from his first child's baptism.
Birmingham and Aston in 1841 were heavily populated areas attracting people from many areas so it is very possible that Richard came to Birmingham/Aston on his own and not with other members of his family but it is worth looking to see what other male Fowlers of the same age are in the area in the 1841 and 1851 censuses. You have to hope for younger siblings (of a similar class) since Richard was 65 in 1841. Unfortunately the born in and out of county yes/no on the 1841 census is unreliable particularly for out of county. The poor law system of settlement and removal orders still applied and this may be impacting on how truthful people were prepared to be about whether they were born in the area/county or not (even if they knew where the county boundaries ended, something many people don't know today so why should 1841 be any better). Since the surname Fowler is not uncommon you would expect to find Fowlers and it would be a case of seeing whether they can be eliminated.
Helaugh and Tadcaster are about 45 miles apart, one high up in the Dales and one close to York, so it would be a matter of trying to prove those Richard Fowler events were connected and if that was proved then connect them to Birmingham - what for instance might Ann born in Ireland be doing in Tadcaster or Oadby? Birmingham on the otherhand is a city with a history of large Irish immigration, so as I said important to check the marriage didn't occur there first or in the surrounding areas, particularly Staffordshire (industrial black country) which adjoined Birmingham. Tadcaster is about 123 miles away from Birmingham.
Regards
Valda
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The Thomas Fowler born in Bridgnorth was baptised in 10 Jan 1791 son of John and Anne Fowler. So he could have been a brother of Richard if we can find a Richard Fowler born to the same parents in Bridgnorth.
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Hello Dobby,
Thankyou for all the information you have given me,i will certainly look into
the marraige you have found,it is so good of you to take the time and trouble
to look for me.
Thankyou
Carol
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Hello Valda,
Thankyou for the information you have given me and i will do as you say
and put up another Topic Richard Fowler the Shoemaker.
Many Thanks
Carol
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I am sure he will turn up eventually.
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Hi Coombs,
Thankyou very much for trying to help me find Richard,i am grateful.
but Thomas born to John and Anne Fowler is worth looking at.
Thankyou
Carol
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Hi Valda,
Thankyou for your message,I was in touch with a person in Ditton Priors
and i looked on his tree,there was a Richard Fowler with Siblings i think he only
had information for one of the siblings nothing for Richard only date of Birth.
I think he was having the same problem he could not find them.
I thought this could be mine,i tried to send this person another message but he would not answer.
I have looked for a marriage for Richard and Ann in Birmingham,but i can`t find one.
On the 1841 Census Richards daughter Martha Casey lives there at the
same address,she was formerly Buckley her husband Jerimiah Buckley died.
I can`t find a birth for Martha or Richards son John Fowler born 1830.
I thought it was strange no children with Richard and Ann on the 1841 Census.
I found John on the 1851 Census with Harriet Fowler born abt 1837 whom i
assume could be John`s sister and they were Boarders.
On Richards death certificate in 1845 it states he was a Shoemaker on John`s
marriage certificate in 1852 it says Richard Shoe maker.
On Martha`s Marriage certificate in 1842 Richard was a labourer i have only
just noticed this.
So it looks like Richard only recently took shoemaking up before he died.
Carol
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Hi Carol
You need to find out the earliest known child born to Richard and Ann and go back from there. If Ann was born in Ireland they you need to be looking for perhaps an Irish sounding maiden name although many Irish people did have surnames that were common in England such as Smith, Musgrave, Bradford etc.
Do you know when Ann Fowler died?
Ben
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Hi Ben,
I think Ann Fowler died in 1852,she was not on any census`s after 1851,
The only Ann Fowler i could find who died in Birmingham was 1852.
Carol
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Hi Carol
When you say you can't find Richard and Ann's marriage or their children's baptisms you mean you have exhausted all avenues such as the BMSGH indexes e.g. Greater Birmingham Marriage Index 1776-1837?
Labourer was a term which could be applied to all working men's occupations and some officials chose to use it as a generic term so it doesn't necessarily indicate he wasn't a shoemaker. It would be very unusual if he acquired a skilled trade in his late 50s early 60s.
John and Ann Fowler had 6 children baptised in Bridgnorth 1777-1787 including Thomas in 1791.
1777, 1780, 1782, 1785, 1787, and 1791 so consistent spacing between each of about 2/3 years.
Regards
Valda
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Hi Carol,
Must Bring it up again as Valda said!***make sure you have the correct 1841c Richard (No harm done double checking)
Earlier I said that elimination was part of finding the correct Richard & Ann Valda says about 7 baptisms of Richard or are 7 in the IGI and have already started looking. The (I stand corrected West of Birmingham & not West Birmingham but I was thinking of Manchester that is also Greater Manchester thinking Birmingham the same)
Both my Great grandfathers moved and married away from there home country One from Temple Balsall 1844 in Warwickshire to Yorkshire and the other Burslem 1850ish in Staffordshire to Derbyshire married a lass from Cheshire in Chester and settled in Chesterfield so anything is possible. Thus localising is does not always bring the correct result or correct result. Migration to find work in the new industrial era or people in service of the big wealthy familes moved around also taking staff with them.
Shoemaker could mean cobbler or Shoe factory (Hence not in the trade directories) and Walsall was heavy in the leather industry. Settlement , Examination and removal orders were a great source but were for the very poor and very sparse but are as Valda says is great source find.
I'll check this Yorkshire Richard out at Tadcaster very very lower dales? on the dales river wharf(dale) if only for Elimination.
Hugh Wallis IGI website
For checking Richard & Ann sibling in lowering year order or run of them.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hughwallis/IGIBatchNumbers.htm
BMSGH A Barbra does marriage look ups of 3 marriages for about £4 through
BMSGH website with or or without a find (Or no refund if search is negative)
Dave in Yorkshire Summer residence Warwick
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Carol
You can eliminate the Richard Fowler and Ann of Tadcaster Yorkshire as they had a family and grand children up there in Yorkshire.
Hugh Wallis website has Tadcaster sibling Bapt of Richard and Ann.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hughwallis/IGIBatchNumbers.htm
Click England
next page click Yorkshire OtoS
Then click T in the Index letters then look for Tadcaster bapts
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Thankyou everyone for all the information and advice,,i really appreciate
you all for trying to help me find Richard Fowler.
Many Thanks
Carol
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Hi Carol
I just remembered this website? it helped me with my family history! its a 'buy' or 'pay to view' but very reasonable and have access to records transribed that only archives have!! ie Poor law. Like all family history? a little game entering the unknown.
http://www.midlandshistoricaldata.org/index.aspx?sc=800
Dave
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Hi Dave,
Thankyou for the website,i will take a look at it you never know.
Carol