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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Down => Topic started by: clotworthy on Wednesday 16 December 09 21:56 GMT (UK)
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started finding my family in comber county down and have hit a brick wall, there has always been a family story of a secret i feel it was to do with my great grandmothers middle name she was alice clotworthy patterson on her birth certificate her mother has a madien name of cobain however in other documents she is colville really stuck if any one can help that would be great
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Now that you've found the place for your post perhaps you can give us some more details like Alice?'s father's name, when she was born and anything else you know that might help us assist you.
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Alice's fathers name was David patterson. Alice was born December 1893, she had 6 sisters phoebe,Annie,Sarah,Minnie,Elizabeth and Agnes.
Alice was the youngest and apparently her mother died in child birth however cannot find any deaths at that time for Elizabeth patterson.
David patterson was a blacksmith as per family members information, on the comber parish records there is a David patterson who is mentioned as the son of john patterson the site says that blacksmith David patterson, widower, married Lizzie colville 9Th of July 1888 At 1st presby. church 1888 the witnesses where Samuel and Mary colville.
on Alice birthcertificate mothers maiden name is Cobain.
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Here's Alice's birth registration-
Alice Clotworthy PATTERSON Jan./Mar.1894 Newtownards registration district volume 1 page 787
And possibly her marriage?-
Alice C. Patterson Apr./June 1916 Belfast registration district volume 1 page 345
Have you found Alice in 1911 census yet?
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yes found her and her sister minnie they must have been boarding together at the time she was a hem stitcher and minnie an embrodier.
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i have alice marriage to williamjames mcmurray on the 22nd of april 1916, her birth certificate that i have has her dated 1893
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There's also an Annie Patterson in that househodl and the 3 Pattersons are listed as relatives of James Blain-
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001407386/
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Emerald Ancestors has the marriage of David Patterson to Elizabeth CONVILLE in Newtownards First Presbyterian Church on 9 Jul 1888.
Regards
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thanks i have the emerald hit of the marriage im just really really confused about the maiden name it has halted me in my tracts i think if i could get some sort of evidence of the birth of the other sisters, to see what maiden name is on there birth certificates everything points to colville however it is on the birth certificat of alice clotworthy pattersn as cobain. :-\
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thanks aghadowey
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Something doesn't added up here and I have a suspicion what's gone on here.
First, who is the informant on Alice C. Patterson's birth certificate?
Second, what do you know about the other sisters? and how do you know that they were all Alice's sisters?
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i have that information from Alice's son who is now dead, i found Sarah Blain under Sarah colville from emerald ancestors who's father was Samuel and mother Mary Thompson, the same Samuel and Mary conville who where witnesses at the marriage of Elizabeth and David i hope I'm on the right tract. whats bothering you about all this cause i cant put my finger on whats not adding up for me like i said there is a story of a secret that apparently one of the females ran away with a footman, that's why i think that the middle name clotworthy is of such importance i just cant piece it all together .
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i don't have an informant on the birth certificate i have on that gives her name and date and place of birth no parents are mentioned i assume it is a short birth certificate however the general registrar office sent me out the information that Alice clotworthy patterson her birthdate and name of parents everything corresponds except for the mothers maiden name
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I think you need to stop for a minute and look at the facts so far.
Alice's birth certificate lists mother as Elizabeth Cobain- who is the informant? if Alice's mother did die in childbirth it may be that the person who registered the birth was mistaken about her mother's maiden name.
Marriage of David Patterson and Elizabeth Colville in 1888 lists David as a widower (don't think you mentioned this but the information is on Ros Davies' Co. Down site).
Now, some of the things that seem to be based on family stories-
Alice's mother died in childbirth and she had 6 older sisters.
-If Alice's parents were married in July 1888 and she was born in Dec.1893 it seems unlikely that there were 7 children born between those dates unless there were twins in the family. Agnes in 1911 census is shown as born c1891
-Phoebe is a fairly uncommon girls' name and the only Phoebe Patterson I can see born in Co. Down is a Phoebe Jane Patterson born 1872- daughter of David Patterson and Ann Jane Hamilton.
-This David and Ann Jane were married in 1870 and also had a son John in 1871 and daughter Anna in 1874 (could this be Annie in 1911 census age 39?)
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of course i didnt look at the dates your right of course that would be impossible so many children in such a short space of time, are you suggesting then that david was married before i found on family search a david patterson christened 1837, father john patterson there was no mention of a mother for david in either pieces of information do you think i am looking at the right couple there couldnt have been to many people born with clotworthy in their name, doubting if i am looking at the right parents at all, if they got married in 1888 that would have made him in his fifties when they got married so it is possible that he had many children what do you think
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you are a dimond :D i found in the comber parish records that mrs hamilton rented a house to in barrick street to the patterson family in 1751 im checking out now what i can get from it
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have also found agnes daughter of hamilton patterson i wonder is that just the two surnames as apposed to a christen and surname
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Just butting in here and unsure if this may hinder or help you, but I've been wondering about the similarity of the surnames Colville and Cobain.
This may be completely wrong but just thought I'd share my thoughts. Might it be possible for the surname Colville to be misinterpreted as Cobain depending on the legibility of the writing?
I just did a quick scribble of 'Colville and my scribble could easily mis read as Cobain. I'm thinking if you join the first 'l' and 'v' of colville, with a little loop of the 'v' it might look like a 'b'. and if the other two 'l's' aren't tall enough they can look like an 'n'. Have you seen the original names to make a judegement?
Or, am I mad? :D Or just trying to make my theory fit? :-\
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Sounds quite logical, Ruskie.
clotworthy- Patterson and Hamilton are very common surnames in Co. Down so it's really not wise to start thinking there are connections between everyone with those names.
Back to David Patterson's marriage to Elizabeth Conville-
of course i didnt look at the dates your right of course that would be impossible so many children in such a short space of time, are you suggesting then that david was married before i found on family search a david patterson christened 1837, father john patterson there was no mention of a mother for david in either pieces of information do you think i am looking at the right couple there couldnt have been to many people born with clotworthy in their name, doubting if i am looking at the right parents at all, if they got married in 1888 that would have made him in his fifties when they got married so it is possible that he had many children what do you think
I'm not suggesting that David Patterson was married twice- it is a fact- does the marriage certificate you have not say widower?
"David PATTERSON - Comber & Newtownards - a widower & blacksmith of Comber ; son of John Patterson (a labourer ) ; married Lizzie colville 9 jul 1888 at 1st Newtownards Presbyterian Church , witnesses were Samuel & Mary Colville"
You can't assume that 'your' David Patterson was in his 50s when he married- if (still a big if at this stage) he was married in 1870 the first time he could have been born around late 1840s- at this point there's no way to connect him with that 1837 baptism (early baptisms often don't mention the mother's name).
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i dont have the marriage certificate, the only piece of evidence i have for all of this is a short birth certificate and a lot of family hear say ... i am thinking of visiting the council today do you think they could give me davids birth certificate and even if i could get hold of a marriage certificate it would be great the quote i gave you above came from the comber parish records site that they have online .
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thanks ruskie i suppose it is possible i dont mind you butting in appreciate all the help i can get. but i know what you mean i tend to make things find to suit as well thats why i hope im looking at the right couple here. i think i need to start getting some paper evidence to back it up i am gonna start at the council offices. do you need to make an appointment does anyone know or can you just turn up.
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The council will have copies of marriage registers but not any birth records. Civil registration of births started in 1864 so there's isn't likely to be a birth certificate for David Patterson (especially if he was first married in 1870).
You should certainly get the 1888 marriage certificate and I would also check the 1870 marriage (see if occupation, father's details, etc.) match the 1888 one.
If the 1870 marriage is correct then I have found more details which seem to fit the family.
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i was able to get the 1888 marriage to sarah colville and on it david patterson is widowed they oculdnt find the 1870 marriage cause i didnt have the church they where married in she checked a couple for me but no luck, emerald ancestory give me the church after i got home, can i ask what other information you have, i still need to connect elizabet colville to the birth of alice that way i will know i have the right couple.
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i have the sister phoebe from emerald ancestors father david and mother anne jane hamilton so i def have my connection to this couple
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1911 census- 5 Roseberry St. (Pottinger DED), Down:
David Thompson, 40
wife Phoebe 38 married 17 years 8 children/8 living
children- David 16, Alexander 14, Ann Jane 12, Lizzie 10, William 8, James 6, John 5, Agnes 3
niece Elizabeth Thompson 20
see here for full details-
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Pottinger__part_of_/Roseberry_Street/229216/
Birth registration- David Patterson Thompson Jan./Mar.1895 Newtonards registration district
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Hello,
Does anyone researching the Clotworthy family have in their tree a Jane Clotworthy possibly born in England I don't know her Clotworthy parents. She was still alive in 1719 in Ireland as an older women as Jane Downing mentioned in her son's will. Thank you, Jill.
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Hello Jill,
Pardon the time delay from your last post but I've just discovered a Downing/Clotworthy connection.
From Post #5 below in reference to Adam's Will whereby he bequethed to his nephew Daniel his rights of tenantcy with rents payable to Lord Viscount Massereene and the Downing connection to the Skeffington family (Adam served in the Regiment of Col Clotworthy Skeffington - see Quiet Places of the Lower Bann Valley by John Hughes, Chapter 33 @ http://family.kiwicelts.com/21_Places_and_History/Quiet_Places_of_the_Lower_Bann.html ) ; I was determined to find out if we could connect Jane Clotworthy to this Skeffington association.
As it turned out, Col. Clotworthy Skeffington was the 3rd Viscount Massereene to whom nephew Daniel would be indebted for rents and was the son of Sir John Skeffington, 2nd Viscount Masereene, who married Mary, the ONLY daughter of Sir John Clotworthy b. abt 1595 and created 1st Viscount Masereene in 1660.
Sir John Clotworthy was the son of Sir Hugh Clotworthy b. abt 1569 in Devon, England.
Sir Hugh married Mary Langford also of Devon, Eng in abt. 1694 and apparently emigrated to Ireland, because he served as Sheriff of Antrim.
Sir Hugh had 2 brothers, Simon the eldest b. abt. 1567 and Lewis b. ? and 3 sisters, Grace, Sarah, and Joan.
Other than Sir John, I could only find 1 other child of Sir Hugh and Mary Langford, a daughter named Mary b. abt 1601, who married a John Upton.
It is possible that Sir Hugh's brother Simon, who married Mary Rashley (location unknown) and they also emigrated to Ireland, eventually becoming the grandparents of Jane Clotworthy, but that would be speculation at this point and I haven't been able to research further.
The point of all this is that the Clotworthy's had been firmly established in Ireland for several generations and originated from Devon. It could therefore be surmised that the reference to Adam being of an ancient Devonshire family, may have been intended to reference his mother Jane, rather than his father, or surname Downing, the elusive Henry, whom we have yet to verify.
On another note, I'd like to share our respective branches down to our generation if you are willing.
My 2nd cousin Tia, with whom you have been working on these Downings sent me some information on Alexander Downing b. 1858 who I believe may be descended from Dawson and I will be making a visit to the National Archives, Philadelphia Branch to research some of his details.
If you have any specific needs, I could be your "boots on the ground" here.
thanks and have a good day,
Rick T
(dukewm)
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Hello Rick,
Sir Hugh Clotworthy's 2 brothers named Simon and Lewis was an excellant find as were his 3 daughters, just out of interest did you comes across who the daughters married? Also finding the name of Simon's wife - Mary Rashley.
I had found Mary daughter of Sir Hugh and Mary Langford but as she was their only daughter I knew this was not the correct path as Adam Downing's will dated 4th Jan. 1716 named his mother as Jane, and this has been verified by the National Archives of Ireland.
The wording on the Downing vault in Bellaghy is confusing -
"In this place are deposited the remains of Adam Downing Esq., Descended from an ancient family in Devonshire and honourably allied in this kingdom. Being married to Anne the daughter of John Jackson of Coleraine Esq,."
After hunting for Downing's in Devon, of which there are many, I began to wonder if the 'ancient family' could be Clotworthy. I believe you are on the right track.
There is one thing I must point out from your 2nd paragraph in your message dated Friday 17th Feb. 12 - Daniel Downing was named in the will of his uncle Nicholas Downing dated 18th Feb. 1698, not Adam Downing's will.
The townland was Moyagall, Maghera, Barony Loughinsholin. Co. Londonderry.
Tia will be able to help with my branch. I hope you are able to find what is needed re. Alexander Downing and his brother at the National Archives, Philadelphia.
Good hunting,
Jill
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Hello Jill,
I am still researching the Clotworthy line and will get back to you on anything discovered.
I do have the complete transcription of the Downing vault at St. Tida's which has been of great value in piecing together some of this section of the tree.
Yes I am aware and meant to say Daniel was named in Nicholas's Will.
What I seem to need at this point is a giant wall where I can place name tags and shuffle them around as this mystery unfolds like some kind of Police Detective - haha
have a good day (or evening),
Rick T
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Hello Rick,
Thank you for your email and I look forward to hearing from you with new discoveries, and the same my end.
The giant wall sounds a good idea, I just wish I had the space.
Bye for now,
Jill
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Hi Jill,
(as a brief follow-up) the Clotworthy info I came across is from the website:
http://www.antonymaitland.com/pakham03.htm
This is apparently someone's posting of the ancestry he has gathered with references at top of page and may not be proven other than the (I think these are LDS) Reference Numbers given next to each name.
On abt Page 10 the posting lists THOMAS CLOTWORTHY b. 1536 Devon, Eng
and m. abt 1566, his wife Dorothy Parker b. abt 1545 ; d. 30 Aug 1630 with their children
1. Simon b. abt 1567 m. Mary Rashley
2. Sir Hugh b. abt 1569 m . Mary Langford
3. Lewis b. abt 1571 m. Dorcas Traver
4. Grace b. abt 1575 m. Robert Collynes
5. Sarah b. abt 1577 m. Jasper Horasey
6. Joan b. abt 1579 m. George Luxton
regards,
Rick T
ps: yes therein lies the rub - finding that available giant wall
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Hello Jill,
I am working on possible connections between various DOWNING branches headed by
1. (Capt.) Adam, b.1666
2. Alexander, b. 1858
3. Stafford, b. 1734 ?
The Stafford mentioned above (supposedly) had a son named Stafford who married
Rose Mulholland (all dates unknown). They had four (4) daughters
1. Mary, b. abt 1785 ; m. John Downing (possibly a relative)
2. Ester, b. abt 1789 ; m. James O'Neill
3. Elizabeth, b. ? ; m. Michael Dinnen
4. Elinor, b. ? ; d. unmarried
The four daughters above were all baptised by Alexander Clotworthy Downing, rector of St. Lurach's Church of Ireland until 1793, when he transferred to Leckpatrick. It is JOHN DOWNING, husband of Mary, who captures my attention as the possible link between the Stafford and Adam branches.
Could this John be the same John, son of Dawson & Anne Boyd, b. 1 Aug 1790, your great-great-great grandfather ?
The Stafford Downing branch is from the Dreenan area of Co Derry and this info was provided by a living descendant with whom I am working on these possible connections.
Your input on your G3 grandfather, his spouse and children would be most helpful.
Thanks and have a good day,
Rick
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Hello Rick,
I hope the following goes some way to help sorting out the Downing puzzle, but my 3x great-grandfather was not married to a Mary.
My 3x great- grandfather was John Downing b.1790 d.1870 the 1st son and 4th child of Dawson Downing of Rowesgift b.1739 d.1807 and his 2nd wife Anne Boyd b.? d.1816.
John Downing told his grandson John George Dowing that shortly after Dawson Downing's death in 1807 he left home [Rowesgift] aged 17/18 and did not return until 1830. [Ref:- Letter from John's grandson Lt. Col. John George Downing to his cousin Mrs Marie Savage Armstrong dated 3rd Dec. 1911].
I'm not sure what took him to Ceylon/Sri Lanka but he ended up as Judicial Commissioner, Kandy after 22 years with the Ceylon Civil Service.
In 1821 'John Downing Esquire Bachalor and Elizabeth Gristock , widow both of Trincomalee were married by licence this ninth day of December......'
Trincomalee was within the Archdeaconry and Diocese of Colombo.
Elizabeth's maiden name was Walwyn. [Ref: marriage cert. copy]
The children of John Downing and Elizabeth nee Walwyn -
They had 3 sons and 6 daughters.
George Thomas Downing b.1823 d.1847.
In June 1840 he was appointed an Ensign in the 3rd Foot. A letter to his brother dated April 19th 1842 shows he was stationed in India. He died unmarried.
Charles Downing b.1824 d.1914.
He married Annabella daughter of Richard Martin of Castlebar they had 2 sons -
Geoffrey George David and Percy Claud and 1 daughter.
John David Downing b.1831 d.1903.
He married Sarah Dickin of Loppington, nr. Wem. and they had 1 son John George Downing who in turn had 5 daughters.
I will also add information on the brothers of my 3xgreat-grandfather John Downing b.1790 d.1870.
He had 2 older 1/2 brothers George Alexander Fullerton (born Downing) and David Fullerton Fullerton (born Downing).
Then 3 'full' brothers.
Ezekiel Hugh Downing b.1796 d.1817.
To date all that is known about him is that his father Dawson left him £1,500 in his will and that Ezekiel died in Jamaica, his 1/2 brother George inherited land in Jamaica from his Fullerton gt-uncle.
William Downing b.1798 d.1825.
He was a 2nd Lt. in the 2nd Ceylon Regiment, possibly joining up on the 6th June 1816 [Ref: List of Officers of the Army..... By Great Britain. War Office].
He is buried in the Downing vault St. Tida's Church, Bellaghy, Co. Londonderry. Note the date of his death on the vault is incorrect - it is inscribed as 1845 which means he was born after his father Dawson had died in 1807. I believe the 2 was mistaken for a 4 by the stone mason, and a copy of a page out of Dawson Downing's bible confirms the 1825 death date.
David Downing b.1802 d.1888.
His 2nd wife was Frances Anna Hamilton Shuldham nee Parkyn. They had 5 sons and daughter, but their births are far to late, the 1st being 1840.
I hope the above helps. Jill
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Hi Jill,
Yes, your info was very helpful, as always. The name of John,s wife (Elizabeth) eliminates one of the possible connections between the Stafford Downing and Adam Downing "branches".
There are many other possibilities that include male descendants of Adam and his male siblings, so I'll keep "plugging away".
Thanks for the quick reply and have a good day,
Rick T
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Hello again Rick,
I should have added that I think the Downing link between the Bellaghy Downings and the Dreenan Downings may be found as far back as the brothers of Adam Downing b.1666 d. 1719. He had Samuel, George and John, and may be a Daniel.
Adam Downing's uncle Nicholas Downing whose will was dated 18th Feb 1698 named his Downing nephews as - Capt. Adam - John - George - Samuel - Daniel - Abraham - Bernard. As Nicholas named a brother called William Downing some of the Downing nephews listed could be William's sons. Nicholas also had a nephew named Tobias Mulhollen and incase you come across the name Major John Dobbin, this was Nicholas's cousin who was one of the overseers of Nicholas's will.
In Adam Downing's will dated 4th Jan. 1716 his brothers are named as George and Samuel. Brother Samuel because he was the father of Adam, Adam Downing's god-son who was left £5.00 and brother George because he was a joint executor of Adam's will, and he was given the duty of looking after Adam's sons until they were 21, and putting Adam's sons out to "apprenticeshipps".
Or may be the Dreenan Downings link to the Bellaghy Downings through the brothers of John Downing b.1700 d.1785, who were Henry - Jackson - William - Adam. Very, very little is known about them.
Or even the brothers of Dawson Downing -
You know Alexander Clotworthy Downing's information.
Rowe Downing - there is no family information on him apart from the fact he was a Lt. in the local militia in 1756 with Capt. John Downing father/brother? and Lt. Alexander Clotworthy Downing, brother.
John Downing - he stared his military life in the Royal Regiment of Artillery in 1759 and he retired on full pay in 1797. We know he had 2 sons a John and a James, but his wife's name is not known. From the wording on a Rowesgift Deed dated 10th Oct. 1788 he seems to have had more than one wife because the words are 'his present wife'.
I know there are an awful number of Downing's listed above to follow re the Downings of Dreenan but put them on the 'back-boiler' until you are ready for each one of them.
Good luck, Jill
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Rick, Ive just thought the subject is still Re: Clotworthy do you think this should be changed?
Bye,
Jill
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Hi Jill,
Thanks, I think I have all the previous info documented.
I'm putting some finishing touches on what we know in a reply to a living descendant of Stafford Downing, of the Dreenan branch, and with all those unknown Bellaghy Downing descendants it looks like I'll just leave it as "further research ongoing" or a "work in progress".
I think we can put the above subject to rest and just leave this thread to the Clotworthy discussion. Hopefully, as soon as I wrap up my reply to the Dreenan descendant, I can refocus on the Clotworthy connection (if there is one).
Thanks again,
Rick
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Good luck.
Jill
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hi rick
this is first time I've mailed you
my grandfather was patrick dawson downing b. 1869 kilbery downing
his father was james downing b.1839, kilberry downing and his mother bridget henery of drumard who married in 1868. Their eldest son john downing b.1868 inherited the farm at kilberry downing and his son john lived there until mid 1930s
father of james (1839)was john downing,
I think my downing family is linked to family of dawson downing b.1739 but i'm not quite sure how.
can you help?
regards
james hanley
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Urubu76,
Have you seen the other thread on this site on what looks like the same family? See http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,443356.0.html
Regards
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In response to James Hanley:
Dawson Downing b.1739 had 2 sons by his 1st wife Katherine Fullerton, who assumed the Fullerton surname by Royal Licence. They were George Alexander Fullerton and David Fullerton Fullerton.
Dawson had 4 sons and 7 daughters by his 2nd wife Anne Boyd:
1. Rosetta
2. Amelia b. 20 Sep 1786
3. Anne b. 12 May 1788
4. John b. 1 Aug 1790
5. Mary b. 10 Dec 1792
6. Catherine b. 1 Aug 1794
7. Sally b. 8 Sep 1795
8. Ezekiel Hugh b. 25 Nov 1796/7
9. William b. 12 Jul 1798
10. Margaret b. 5 Jul 1800
11. David b. 5 Mar 1802
Dawson's younger brother John b. 1740, had 2 sons John and James, dates unknown.
My branch is from their older brother Alexander Clotworthy Downing and my data on Dawson and John is limited but Accra (Jill) seen in this thread is descended from Dawson and she has extensive knowledge on his branch. I'm sure she could identify any connection you may share with her.
Your mention of the townland Drumard (Drummard) indicates your Downings are from the same small area as Nicholas Downinge who left a Will dated 18 Feb 1698 and has a connection with Dawson Downing, so you may be on the right trail.
Good luck!