RootsChat.Com
General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: joboy on Sunday 13 March 05 07:40 GMT (UK)
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Just thought I should post this as some of your ancestors are bound to be in
the list.
Hi all,
Copied this with permission of the poster
Start of quote:
As we go to press, it has come to my attention that in April the MOD
intends to destroy some 6 million records of medals issued to WW1
personnel. I think you will agree that we cannot let them do so.
Our military expert Paul Reed has been looking into the matter and it
appears that the private facility used by the MOD to hold the records at
Hayes wants to relocate and charge the MOD for moving the cards. The
MOD's response is to get rid of the 140 filing cabinets that contain the
4-6 cards. The National Archives doesn't want to take on the cards
because it has already microfiched them and the microfiche has been
digitally scanned (see www.documentsonline.nationalarchives.gov.uk).
This isn't good enough. This is the only complete and untouched record
of First World War soldiers left. Other service records were burned
during WW2. Only the fronts of the cards have been scanned and we
believe that written on the back of many of these cards is the address
that the medals were sent to. Often, it isn't possible to determine
whether the record of the medals issued relates to your ancestor or
another person without checking this address.
First, the cards need to be preserved. They then need to be scanned
properly, front and back, and re-indexed. If the National Archives
won't step in, perhaps someone else will. The Imperial War Museum? The
Veteran's Association?
The MOD claims its holds copyright on the cards and that it can do what
it wishes with them. I'd argue that these cards are part of the
nation's heritage. They are public records, and I'd remind the MOD that
the descendants of WW1 soldiers pay their taxes. The cards remind us of
the enormous sacrifice and loss incurred by men and women in this
country during WW1, and of their bravery in adversity. They enable the
children and grandchildren of those who died, and those who survived, to
find out some of
the lost details of their forebears.
To save the cards we must take action. We're instituting a campaign to
urge the Minister of Defence, Geoff Hoon, and the Director of the
National Archives, Sarah Tyacke, to prevent the destruction of these
records straight away. Address your letter to us and we'll pass it on
to these authorities:
Rt Hon Geoff Hoon & Sarah Tyacke
Save the Medal Index Cards
c/o Your Family Tree
30 Monmouth Street
Bath BA1 2BW
Alternatively, send an email headed 'Save the Medal Index Cards' to us
at <yfted@futurenet.co.uk>. Do it now - the records are due to be
destroyed in April.
Garrick Webster,
Editor, Your Family Tree"
End of quote
I apologise for typos in the above. As we know now that the 1911 census
is in one almighty mess with the enumerator's books lost and the
household schedules badly damaged, the thought of yet another valuable -
priceless - resource being deliberately destroyed is beyond belief.
Such destruction will prevent those following in our footsteps in family
history research in generations to come from achieving their goals.
If you wish to post this to other lists, please feel free to use the
above.
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Hi Joboy.
I came across this message too, on the Rootsweb Black Country mailing list. I'm shocked and appawled at the attitude the MOD has taken. Have they no respect for those who faught, died in, or survived through WW1?
>:( I'm very angry!!
Ryan.
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My email has been sent. I sincerely hope this campaign is successful!
Jill
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Same here, Jill ;)
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Sent my email too.
Horrifying to think that these could be lost - especially deliberately.
Helen
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Yep, sent mine too. I feel really angry about this as I have only just discovered the existance of medal cards for my Grandfather and other relatives. Six million is a heck of lot - approx one tenth of todays population. There can`t be many families unnaffected by this. I have also this afternoon taken my children to `feed the ducks`where our local war memorial is situated, and spent a good while dicussing and explaining its significance as they recognised almost all of the surnames on it from school! I shall also be letting my local MP know how I feel.
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My email has been sent and I will also write as well. Im absolutely disgusted at the lack of respect for men like my gg grandfather who gave his life in ww1 for our future. Something has to be done, this cannot be allowed to happen! >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
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My email has been sent too.
I won't say any more cos otherwise I'll be here forever ranting and raving!!
tabitha
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Shocking to read this thread :o
I have just sent my email too............and I am saying nothing more ;)
Jan
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My email has also gone out
I've also emailed my local MP (labour) who states he was unaware of proposal.
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I too have sent an e-mail, but to be proactive we should be prepared to find an organisation that can take ownership of the cards and preserve them for posterity. It would have to be an organisation with sufficient gravitas and independence to avoid the MoD being able to say that they are not suitable. Does anyone have any ideas?
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Good thinking Nick. The Royal British Legion immediately springs to my mind, but how practical or possible that would be I don't know!
Jill
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My five pennies worth has been sent
Willow x
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I've just sent mine, I'm shocked that they can even consider doing this, appalling
Newbie
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I've sent mine.
Sandie
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i also saw this posting on another board and sent my email. i do hope it helps, they havent given us much time!
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A reply about the WWI Medal cards which might interest you all.
Posted on the Rootsweb Bristol & Somerset Mailing List 14/3/2005
Quote:
Dear XXXX
Thank you for your email and for your concern.
I trust this explains the situation regarding the WW1 medal cards:
In 1985, the Public Record Office, now The National Archives, began microfilming the alphabetical card index to the First World War Army medal rolls. The front of the cards was microfilmed, with the originals remaining in Ministry of Defence (MOD) custody. The National Archives now makes that index available to the public in microfiche here at Kew and also via our website online http://www.documentsonline.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
The MOD now has no further administrative use for the cards, and so they and we have offered the original cards to a number of institutions, museums etc. So far, none of the institutions approached has wished to take the cards, largely on account of the huge transfer and storage costs (and set of course against the fact that almost all the information they contain is available online). The cards are contained in 143 cabinets, each 5' 10" tall / 14" wide / 2' deep, each weighing around 175 kg.
The reverse side of the index cards has not been copied as the vast majority of them are blank. A very small percentage has something written on the reverse, and in some, but not in all cases, this was the address to which the medals were sent. Sampling has found soldiers' addresses on less than two cards in three hundred and the resources required to identify and extract that small percentage of cards from within the total collection (5-6 million cards) cannot be justified. Notwithstanding the incompleteness of the First World War soldiers' records due to World War 2 bombing, in many cases that same home address will be found within the man's service or pension documents preserved at The National Archives, or indeed on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission's website http://www.cwgc.org
The MOD will therefore shortly destroy the cards, this being the only realistic option.
I am sorry that this is probably not the reply you will have hoped to receive, but I hope that this explanation will at least help you to understand the reasons behind the decision.
Yours sincerely
Paul Sturm
Public Services Development Unit
End Quote.
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This is not good enough. Why can they not list the museums and institutions that have rejected the cards? Surely they have an obligation to preserve them as items of significant national importance? I think we should all consider raising the subject with our MPs. Perhaps the cards could go to the regimental museums for the varoius combatants? That would involve a certain amount of sorting, but not as much as (say) if they offered the cards for sale to family.
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I agree with you Nick.
I would certainly like to buy my GUncle's medal card - what a wonderful piece of history.
Jan :)
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I have too, especially as my Grandfather's Medal Card will be amonst them! I am in the predicament that if I knew what the back of the card said I could clarify 100% that the card I have is indeed of my Grandfather's military history. If this is destroyed I may never know.
Very angry >:(
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Am I been stupid?? Does it now not appear that the cards were put on-line precisely so that the originals COULD be destroyed and money saved? If the cost of the scanning/uploading operation is cancelled out by the monies saved by having the cards destroyed then why can't these cards be available to view on-line for FREE at the very least?
Of course, that doesn't detract from the issue in hand... it would be CRIMINAL to destroy these cards.
Craig >:(
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No you are certainly not stupid.
If,as explained by Paul Sturm of the Public Services Development Unit, that the
The National Archives now makes that index available to the public in microfiche here at Kew and also via our website online http://www.documentsonline.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
then that's OK by me .............. BUT it further says;
The reverse side of the index cards has not been copied as the vast majority of them are blank. A very small percentage has something written on the reverse, and in some, but not in all cases, this was the address to which the medals were sent. Sampling has found soldiers' addresses on less than two cards in three hundred and the resources required to identify and extract that small percentage of cards from within the total collection (5-6 million cards) cannot be justified. Notwithstanding the incompleteness of the First World War soldiers' records due to World War 2 bombing, in many cases that same home address will be found within the man's service or pension documents preserved at The National Archives, or indeed on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission's website http://www.cwgc.org
As you would be aware our (collective) particular pursuit is 'family history' and we all search and search for any scrap of detail ........... some precious detail would be on the reverse side of those cards and it would be too 'cavalier' for them to be destroyed without all the detail being recorded.
joboy
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Based on 6 million cards: 2 in every 300 = 40,000 addresses on the reverse of the cards which would be lost forever once the cards are destroyed! >:(
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Right, so has anybody got a warehouse that we could store these cards in, and volunteers to look at the backs of the cards?
Seriously, if we want something doing, let's propose it.
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Ok, let's say we have six million cards to get through.
That's 6,000,000 :o
We split them up and divide them between 100 volunteers
Each volunteer has 60,000 cards
Each volunteer flicks through the cards at a rate of say 1 every second.
Let's say the volunteer can work for an hour at that rate, and have a break for ten minutes. Let's say they start at nine o'clock, have just half an hour off for lunch, and they finish at 5 o'clock. That's six hours solid work.
Ok, so that would be 3,600 cards looked at per day.
So it would take 17 days to get through.
Lets add some weekends to that, it would take over three weeks to achieve.
So now the volunteers each have 400 cards with notes on the back. Let's say spend an hour transcribing each card that has been singled out, and scanning each one, and uploading the information to a webpage. That would be thirteen weeks to transcribe them.
So that would take in total sixteen weeks of working full days for one hundered volunteers. Adding a bit of slack to that, it's six months for people working non-stop.
It's a big task.
I've probably got my maths wrong somewhere, but it's late. :-\
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Some more figures:
The 'closed' filing cabinets will require 30 sq m of floorspace to be stored - and that is packed like sardines.
600mm x 350mm x 143
=30.03 m2
allow for opening drawers & walking in-between
=90m2
Transportation:
175kg * 143 = 25,025 kg
= 36 vanloads (@ 700kg/4 cabinets per van)
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Agreed the job would be gargantuan .......... BUT have we not heard of 'filtering'. Those lists would not all refer to British personnel ........... there would be Kiwis, Canucks, Indians,Irish, Gurkhas and many many more.
I dont subscribe to any single body combing over the reverse sides of those lists at all (TOO BIG) but I bet that a lot of worldwide organizations like the Returned Soldiers League here in OZ and the British Legion etc would be glad of finding a method.
The lists could be broken down easily into the country that the personnel fought for then into particular services (navy,army,airforce) and then into particular regiments or divisions (navy) etc. and then even down to individual units like ships or where the various military bases were.
You would probably find ,if the birthplace of the server is included in the detail, that the RSL or BL in that particular area would be pleased to involve themselves with the filtering task.
I for one am going to alert the RSL here in OZ as to what is happening and suggest that anyone subscribing to this thread do likewise in their own domain.
joboy
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Come on Aussies - put in your bit too - after all our descendants came from the UK (well, most of them) and it is hard enough from down under trying to get information as it is.
Destroying these cards would be an act of Insanity - regardless of whether the 'fronts' have been microfilmed or not. Microfilming does not replace having the 'original' document.
Can you imagine the hue and cry when our RSL's find out about this? Let your local branch know.
Cougar
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Well Done Cougar.
I have already emailed the admin of the RSL.
Hope I can get a reply and report on their attitude to this.
joboy
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:o :o :o :o :o :o :o
Totally shocked
My email has been sent,
I sincerely hope this campaign is successful!
and THAT THESE CARDS ARE SAVED !!
or another lot of records will be lost !! :o
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Same here - I've sent mine. We can't let them do this
>:( :( >:( :( >:( :( >:( :(
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The Society of Genealogists have now made an input to this and you will catch it at http://www.sog.org.uk/files/ec-letter_to_mod-050316.pdf .
So things are moving now ........ gotta keep the pressure up though!!
joboy
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Too right >:( >:( >:(
As we speak I'm waiting to hear back from my MP and MSP and have contacted other mailing lists.
Excellent letter by the way :)
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Just got news from the Rootsweb Black Country mailing list that the Western Front Association will be acquiring the cards from the MOD. Not quite sure of all the details.
http://www.westernfront.co.uk/news/
Ryan.
:)
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GREAT!!!
Jill
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Fantastic !!!!!!!
:) :D :) :D :) :D
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It made the national news in Australia today.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200503/s1327117.htm
deadants
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Sadly it doesn't seem important enough for UK news :(
tabitha
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I looked into both the Canadian and New Zealand ex service websites and not a 'peep' about ths subject.
So I sent them all the detail gathered so far.
joboy
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Good for you Joboy - the more fuss kicked up the more the MOD will have to reconsider.
Tabitha - apparently it was mentioned in the newspaper as my Dad saw it - but it was only a small piece - he reckoned a 3-column spread - by about an inch ! Not surprising that most people missed it then.
Still fuming about the MOD >:( - but feeling a little more confident that an alternative will be found :)
Helen
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News just in from soc.australia+nz as follows;
News on the Internet follows up on the story by Paul
Reed about the WW1 Index Cards.
Quote from here -
http://battlefields1418.50megs.com/medal_index_cards.htm
I am pleased to say that since this was written, the
Western Front Association have agreed to take on the
care of the records and are currently putting in an
application to the Ministry of Defence, which is
supported by the National Archives. Early negotiations
are proving fruitful: the eventual aim is to make the
records available to the public, possibly via the
Internet.
If you support the Western Front Association then you
can email your support to:
enquiries@westernfrontassociation.com
GOOD NEWS!!
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Sent mine too - and to some friends doing their trees to send on also!!
Valerie