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Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: gbrowne on Thursday 10 December 09 13:34 GMT (UK)
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I have discovered that my Great Uncle who lived in Buxton, married a Hungarian woman called Anna HALAM in the 1960s.
Her death cert records that she was born 16th August, 1906, Budapest, Hungary. I can't find her name in the UK BMDs, so I suspect they married abroad.
I would like to get hold of her birth certificate and their marriage cert if possible. Could anyone suggest where I should begin please ? I have no knowledge of the Hungarian language whatever - though I do make a wicked goulash :)
Cheers,
Geoff.
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I checked a couple of GRO overseas indexes but didn't see anything for "Halam" around that time. Can you give your uncle's name, and do you know if he might have been in the military at the time?
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So sorry for not coming back to you sooner. For some reason I didn't get a notification of your reply. Very grateful for your help.
My Great Uncle was called Edward BROWNE and he was born 13/5/1904 in Barton, Manchester, LAN.
Interesting you mention the military. I don't have any record of him having served in the Regular Army, but we do know he was involved with the League of Frontiersmen, possibly in South Africa. We also know that he was in Tangier, Morocco at least around 1948/1949as we have his gun license from then. He was also in Gambia in 1954 as he came back from there to England on 21 June aboard the RMNV Aureol.
Cheers,
Geoff Browne
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Looks like this is more difficult than I thought it might be :(
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Hi
The spelling of this surname is probably Hálám. I do not believe it is a common name but records in Hungary, and also within Budapest, are decentralised - there are no central nationwide or citywide indexes.
If they married in the 1960s in UK then I would guess that she was either a post-WW2 Displaced Person (i.e. arrived in England after 1946) or else fled Hungary in late 1956 following the Soviet invasion.
There would also have been Hungarian emigres and refugees in countries such as France, of course, so they may have married overseas.
Do you wish to research her family tree or just find out more about your great uncle?
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Hi Bluebird,
Thanks for the reply and the info.
Unfortunately all I know is what I have from her death certificate ie that she was born on 16th Aug 1906 in Budapest. Another snippet is that the informant was a Ferenc Jozsef DODOG.
It would be great to find anything out about her really, though I suppose I am mainly interested in terms of what she might lead to shedding a little light on part of my Great Uncle's life.
From your experience of Hungarian research, would you say I am unlikely to be able to find her birth cert ?
I was told by my late father that Edward married a French woman in the mid-1960s, but I suppose he might have misremembered a marriage in France to a Hungarian woman. We know that Edward certainly travelled around Africa, but so far we have no details to any european travel.
All the best,
Geoff Browne.
Hi
The spelling of this surname is probably Hálám. I do not believe it is a common name but records in Hungary, and also within Budapest, are decentralised - there are no central nationwide or citywide indexes.
If they married in the 1960s in UK then I would guess that she was either a post-WW2 Displaced Person (i.e. arrived in England after 1946) or else fled Hungary in late 1956 following the Soviet invasion.
There would also have been Hungarian emigres and refugees in countries such as France, of course, so they may have married overseas.
Do you wish to research her family tree or just find out more about your great uncle?
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Hi Geoff
If she was indeed born in Budapest, it should be possible to obtain a copy of her birth or baptism certificate, although you would need to look at each of the Budapest districts in turn until you found it. So it's possible but time-consuming.
If she was born in the Budapest district outside the city limits, of course, the task suddenly becomes much more speculative.
Have you looked for wills for Anna and Edward? If either or both left a will, the bequests might be interesting.
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As far as I can tell, neither of them were likely to have left much estate, so wills are unlikely.
Obtaining birth/baptism certs sounds like my best hope.
You say I should look at each of the districts - could you please tell me the best way to go about this from the UK ?
Geoff.
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Hi Bluebird,
Thanks for the reply and the info.
Unfortunately all I know is what I have from her death certificate ie that she was born on 16th Aug 1906 in Budapest. Another snippet is that the informant was a Ferenc Jozsef DODOG.
It would be great to find anything out about her really, though I suppose I am mainly interested in terms of what she might lead to shedding a little light on part of my Great Uncle's life.
From your experience of Hungarian research, would you say I am unlikely to be able to find her birth cert ?
I was told by my late father that Edward married a French woman in the mid-1960s, but I suppose he might have misremembered a marriage in France to a Hungarian woman. We know that Edward certainly travelled around Africa, but so far we have no details to any european travel.
All the best,
Geoff Browne.
Hi
The spelling of this surname is probably Hálám. I do not believe it is a common name but records in Hungary, and also within Budapest, are decentralised - there are no central nationwide or citywide indexes.
If they married in the 1960s in UK then I would guess that she was either a post-WW2 Displaced Person (i.e. arrived in England after 1946) or else fled Hungary in late 1956 following the Soviet invasion.
There would also have been Hungarian emigres and refugees in countries such as France, of course, so they may have married overseas.
Do you wish to research her family tree or just find out more about your great uncle?
My name is Monika Dodog from Hungary. Can I help you?
Best regards
Monika
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For general genealogical information about Hungary and some links for research
try the Hungary page of the wiki.FamilySearch project(*)
https://wiki.familysearch.org/en/Hungary
amongst other things, there is a list of the counties / districts of Hungary.
Bob.
(*)You can find out more about the wiki.FamilySearch project here:
Topic: New resource from Familysearch: research in other countries
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,259450.0.html
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gbrowne is searching Dodog name man. I believed it, I can help possibly. :)
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Great info, thanks!
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Re Anna HALAM born 16th August, 1906, Budapest, Hungary
I dont know how long ago you were looking for the Budapest birth but about a year ago the LDS added more Hungarian records, but they seem to keep the new site a bit of a secret and the mode of entry not totally obvious. When you do get in, you need someone to take your hand and guide you initially.
So the site is under pilot familysearch.org
Dont enter anything, just click on search our records.
After click on Europe
That gives you
http://pilot.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#p=allCollections&r=1
It lists of European countries, and last two of the Hungarian ones are most useful'
Not finished here though, you're looking for a birth in Budapest in 1906
Click: Hungary civil registration 1895 - 1920
Click: Pest county
That will give you 12 of the 14 districts of Budapest (shown as Roman numerals with the IX and IV filed alphabetically not numerically)
Nothing is indexed, so without a known birth address, you still have to search each district for the year in question. If you feel her parents were not too well off, leave district I - III till last for that the wealthier Buda side of the city.
Fortunately you do have the exact birth date, so that at least reduces the number of pages you have to scan through.
Good trick is to try to find the family address or district number from the death NOTICES also listed. Although they are filed alphabetically, Ha and Ha with an accent are not consecutive. So Hálám will appear WAY AFTER a name like Hazard where they start the alphabet again, this time usng accents.
So expect Hálám after a name like Hunt
I think there is something in the Hungarian mentality that wants to make the simplest thing into a major challenge. Some will say thats an endearing quality, others, that it really p-----s them off!
Roy G from Budapest.
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Hi Roy,
Thats a great tipoff, thanks very much. I will see if I can find them in there.
What a useful set of data, but I don't think I would have found my way around it without your help !
Cheers,
Geoff.
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Glad to have been of help, and good luck.
Can only make suggestions based on my own experience and frustrations, but Hungarians also seem to squash their vowels, drop letters or "adapt" their names to western Europen equivalents, so be prepared to accept that what you find, may not be totally identical to what you seek.
The birth cert should be OK, but if they also married abroad, perhaps here in the 1960s, you've just missed the boat on that one. The original release of State birth, marriage & death records by the LDS went up until 1972, but suddenly someone asked about "Data Protection" and all the later records covering the last 50 years were subsequently withdrawn from the Internet.
By the way, those Hungarian ladiies that came from the posh part of the city would always call it Buda and not Budapest, so if you ever met her, and that's what she said, districts I, II, or III should be where you expect to find her. Its rather like saying someone comes from Brighton, and them correcting you with the phrase, "well Hove Actually."
Get back to me with any probs
Roy
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I googled Ference J DoDog
One Internet site states that he is aged 65 plus and in 2009-2010 and was living in Buxton, Derbyshire, SK17. At the same address were other occupants: Alice Dale & Anne E Marshall.
In 2002 other occupants of that same address were: Michael F Bryant , Margaret A Dodog & Brenda A Bryant
Looks like you now need a Buxted phone book.
Ference is the Hungarian form of Francis or Frederic by the way.
Roy G
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Wow Roy, what a lead.
Never even thought there'd be any of the family left in Buxton.
I wonder if the Dodog family knew my great-aunt Anna through being part of the Buxton Hungarian community, or if they were actually related. I will certainly follow this up today.
One thing Roy - could you possibly tell me how you would pronounce 'Ference DoDog' in Hungarian ?
I feel a phone call coming on :)
Thanks again Roy,
Geoff.
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Hope you found the site I referred to and felt like I did, that it would be wiser to reach for a Buxton Phone book (or Internet equvalent) rather than subscirbe to a site just for one address.
Have had a quick look on the LDS Hungarian birth registration site for Anna (or Aranka) Halam in 1906, but drew a blank. But I stress it was only a qiuck look. What worries me about the name is that by 1960 the average 54 year old Hungarian girl would have nailed a feller (or two) by then, and the surname she carried into your family could be that of a previous husband. (see a piece abut the use of "ne" later)
I'm thinking aloud now.
I wonder whether your search for the marriage was just on FreeBMD or the main records held at the GRO? If the former, do search the latter as well for the FreeBMD index peters out far too early. A direct approach to the Registrar of BMDs in Buxton would not go amiss either. Im told that such is the interest in Family History, some local Registrars have already started putting their past records into their own private databases to ease the searching workload. While you are it, look up 'DoDogs' for that period, particularly Margaret A Dodog who I presume may have passed away between 2002-2009.
A 1960s marriage to a Hungarian also suggests she may have fled from the 1956 uprising, so there may be some papers somewhere where her case was assessed by Austrian or British authorities when she sought asylum in the UK.
As for pronunciation, the Hungarian language has lots of quirks. Ference is said like "Clarence" but preceded by Fair. Therefore Fair+ ense.
A married woman then takes her husband's first and last names reverses them and puts -ne on the end. For example, the wife of the afore mentioned Ference would therefore become Dodog Ferencene. Ironic that Brits use 'nee' to show a lady's maiden name, and Hungarian ladies use it to show who they married.
To be honest, I've never come across the name Dodog before, but erring on the side of caution less it be connected to "DoggyDoos," I would opt for Doe-dog.
Roy G
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Hi Roy,
Once again, some excellent information. Thanks very much for that.
Also thanks for taking a quick look at the LDS Hungarian births. I must admit when I looked I was a bit stumped by how difficult it is to read the Hungarian language. Not even knowing the Hungarian for 'father' or 'surname' it looks like I might have to do some research before I can research :)
Yes, I have tried the FreeBMD and the Ancestry England & Wales, Marriage Index 1916-2005, but no match. Very few Halams at all in fact.
I wonder if they were fleeing Hungary as you say. I remember originally my late father telling me that he thought Anna might have been French. Now we know thats not the case, but I wonder if they were married in France before returning to the UK - I assume this would give her entry rights into the country.
The new LDS search for France only goes up to 1924 unfortunately, so can't check that theory out at the moment.
Looking further into the Buxton Dodog connection, it turns out he was her solicitor (I found an announcement of the death in the online London Gazette, giving his professional address in Buxton and a date by which any claims should be made).
Thanks for the pronounciation guide - at least I can address him properly now if I get to find a phone number, though if he was just her solicitor from 20 years ago, I imagine he's probably long forgotten all about her family details.
Geoff.
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Hi Geoff
I had a look at Hungarian death notices too. No Halams, only a couple of Halamas with nothing there to suggest a tie to your Anna. Let's hope the solicitor remembered her. Given the opportunity to natter in their own language, Hungarians usually overflow with an excess of hospitality and remeniscences about the home country and the former regimes, so its highly probable.
I think the LDS have a small spreadsheet giving basic Hungarian words commonly used in family history research. If the trail leads you out of Budapest however, new problems arise. Hungary only shrunk to its present size in 1920, before that you had Greater Hungary or, the Austro - Hungarian Empire. You may therefore find that the parish records from towns and villages that were in the parts of the former Empire that have been lost, are now deposited in the capital cities of the countries that gained them. So you may also need German, Slovac, Romanian, Ukranian, Serbian, Croation, perhaps a little Italian and Latin, oh!, and also to be able to read and understand Hebrew.
As you may therefore gather, researching your family history out here is a series of challenges and set backs, but with every snippet of new info comes a great deal of personal satisfaction.
Send me a personal message letting me know how you get on with the solicitor, and if you still want a few pointers, I'll come back with my Hungarian e-mail address so that we can chat privately.
Roy G
I wonder whether you can access the passport details of a deceased person in the UK?
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Me again.
Looking for something else, I came across the order of the Hungarian Alphabet which may help you locate a family name in the few indexes you may come across.
A Á B C D E É F G H I Í J K L M N O Ó Ö Ő P Q R S T U Ú Ü Ű V W X Y Z
Note, you have to exhaust all the 'A' s before you get to the 'Á' and things can get rather chaotic if the name you seek has an 'O' or 'U' in it, for if you do not know if the name has an accent or not, you have to search each version.
Roy G
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Thanks for this Roy.
G.
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Hi Again
I know it is quite a time since we were last in contact, but I came across a reference that just 'MAY BE' your Anna. I have to write "may be" because although the birth year is correct, the actual birthplace (Zeliska Cz) and birth date differs. However, if you were right that Anna may have come from a camp for displaced persons, the circumstances, could easliy fit.
Page 4 of the following website has a mention of an ARANKA HALMAI (Aranka is aka Anna and HALMAI may be a surname variation rather than typo). http://www.gyorjewish.org/newpage45.htm
The supporting text supplied by the individual who found the document during his own research states that,
"On the 31st July 1944 a transport with 530 Hungarian women on board left Auschwitz, for a slave labor ammunition factory in Lippstadt.
Adding later
"Almost all of these women were liberated on the 1st April 1945 at Kaunitz Germany, while on a death march to Bergen-Belsen."
If you look page 4 and decide it could be your Anna, note that she also appears to have a younger sister with her.
Regards Roy G
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Hi Roy,
Wow ! Thanks so much for that information - really appreciate you remembering my search after all this time. As you know, I have absolutely no experience of searching in records abroad, but what you have found certainly appears to be a pretty reasonable match for Anna, though the birthdate is worrying. Would you say her name was a very common one at that time ?
I'd like to think that perhaps as more inforation comes online I will be able to follow this up in the future. As always, solving one question raises several more :o)
Thanks again Roy.
Geoff.
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It is an unusual name Geoff, and I originally thought that Halmai may have been a typo. I subsequently discovered that there seemed to be a few more Halmais than Halams, making a typo less likely. My experience with these lists is that they are prone to errors or generalisations, perhaps because they were just given to a junior clerk to do.
Of course I can't say it definitely is your Anna (Aranka), but I thought you'd like to know, just to put it amongst your possibles. If nothing else, it could give you some idea what was happening to some girls of about her age. I have recently been reading that some others just into their teens were put into brothels and just used.
Regards Roy G
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Thanks again Roy,
As you suggest, I have added this new information to my records.
Tough times eh :O(
Cheers,
Geoff.