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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: Keith Sherwood on Thursday 10 December 09 12:51 GMT (UK)
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Hi, Everyone,
I'm completely in the dark about the Irish military situation in 1912, and was wondering whether there are experts out there who could point me in the right sort of direction to discover what regiment a certain individual might have been in in that year. He was a William KEPPLE, stated as being a "soldier" when he was married on August 12th 1912 in Cork City Cathedral. Would there have been any likely regiments stationed in the area?
By 1928, when I have the birth certificate of one of his children, he has reverted to "labourer", and much later when this child marries he is referred to as a "docker".
Any useful ideas about where I should look...?
Very best wishes, keith
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Hi Keith
Cork was one of four military districts in Ireland. It was under the command of a Major General so he would have had about 5-6000 troops in his district. In Co Cork there were barracks in Cork City, Buttevant and on the islands in Cork Harbour off Queenstown (now Cobh). But the district probably extended to the rest of Munster.
William Kemble is likely to have been serving in WW1 so you should start by looking at surviving WW1 records on Ancestry, and you need to post his age, place of birth and his wife’s name. Have you found him in 1901?
Ideally you should try and find birth certificates of his first children as one should give his regiment/unit. You should also look at the regimental/overseas BMDs on Findmypast as these include some ‘home’ births. If you get a hit you can order them from the (UK) GRO in the usual manner.
If he served after 1920 his papers will still be with the MOD
Ken
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Ken,
All very interesting - thank you so much for your input. I don't even know the true situation regarding WW1 and the involvement of Irish troops, and whether they fought on Britain's side from the outset, or whether this happened as the war progressed. (And also the question of who volunteered and when exactly conscription might have come into the equation)
But you've given me plenty to chew over!
very best wishes, keith
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Hi Keith ! :D
Have you tried Irish 1911 census ? ( its free on line !! ) you might check there for your family names - theres a family of Kepple's in Mallow Cork even a William too ... but I think he's too young - unless they wrote down the wrong age !!
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/
Where was he from ? do you know if his wife came from Cork ?
Annie :)
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Hi Annie
That's why I was asking about age. Anyone in an 'institution', including barracks, in the 1911 census is only listed by initials, of surname as well as forename.
So Keith if you search for W Ks in Co Cork there are a few that match. Two in Cork aged 29 and 20, from memory, and one on Spike Island, which was one of the fortified islands in Cork Harbour.
Ken
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Hi again, Annie! And thank you so much for your very helpful input, Ken!
Firstly, I've been having a look on the Irish BMD's. Having seen that William's father was a Maurice KEPPLE (deceased) on the 1912 marriage certificate, I noticed a death registration for someone of that name in Sept. quarter 1910 in Cork City, birth given as 1860, but no precise registration details given for his birth.
In the 1911 Census, at the address William gave as his place of residence on his marriage cert. - 5, Hillgrove Lane - there is a Mary KEPPLE, aged 48, widow, and a Katey KEPPLE aged 8; I'm pretty sure that these two must be his recently widowed mother and his young sister.
And Annie, I barked up the wrong tree with that Mallow KEPPLE family for a while before I realised that that could not be the correct William Jonas KEPPLE I was after.
So, Ken, the fact that you mention about initials being used for people in institutions in the 1911 census comes into play, surely. One can only guess at one of the "W Ks" being the man I'm after, but if one had to put one's money on it, then I would definitely plump for the one on Spike Island. Could one find out more details about which regiment was there in 1911, maybe...?
Regards, keith
K
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Ken,
I've just looked up those three entries for WK in Cork on the 1911 Census, and I see that both the 20 and 29 year olds so described (how infuriating that they're therefore made almost anonymous!) are in Victoria Barracks. The age given on the 1912 marriage certificate is, again, frustratingly vague - of full age - so any of those three could fit the man I'm after. From memory, in the Irish BMD's there's an 1880, an 1889 and an 1892 birth registration for a William KEPPLE in Cork City. Perhaps the one born in 1892 might reveal a Maurice as his father's name on a birth certificate if I sent away for it...
keith
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Just a few comments-
1911 census- 5 Hillgrove Lane, Cork
Luke Wills 28 general labourer born 35 Baileys La Cork City
wife Mary Wills married 1 yr. born Cork City
mother-in-law Mary Kepple 48 widow born Cork City
sister-in-law Katey Kepple 8 scholar born Cork City
Civil registration index- marriage- Luke WILLS Apr./Jue 1910 Cork volume 5 page 101 (Mary KEPPLE matching details)
Civil registration index has a marriage which might be William's parents-
Morris KEPPEL July/Sept.1880 Cork registration district volume 5 page 79
I don't even know the true situation regarding WW1 and the involvement of Irish troops, and whether they fought on Britain's side from the outset, or whether this happened as the war progressed.
At the time of WWI Ireland was British and there was no 'Irish Army.'
Firstly, I've been having a look on the Irish BMD's. Having seen that William's father was a Maurice KEPPLE (deceased) on the 1912 marriage certificate, I noticed a death registration for someone of that name in Sept. quarter 1910 in Cork City, birth given as 1860, but no precise registration details given for his birth.
Not sure what you mean by 'no precise registration details given for his birth.' Civil registration of births started in 1864 so this Maurice Kepple will not have a birth certificate. Death certificates for that date list age in years (not exact birthdate) and do not list place of birth.
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Aghadowey,
Thanks again for sorting my muddled reasoning out and pointing me back in the right direction! I completely missed the family connection between the WILLS and the KEPPLE clan at 5, Hillgrove Lane. So the William I'm trying to identify had at least a sister called Mary, who married a Luke WILLS in 1910. (Plus, of course, a little sister Katey KEPPLE.) Sister Mary's age is given as 28 - I could read that, but hadn't got round to enlarging the tiny writing that would have revealed the family relationships, as it was getting late and I was getting weary!), so she must have been born in 1882/3. That would fit with that 1880 marriage for Morris (sic) KEPPEL (sic). Beginning to realise that I ought to send for that 1880 marriage cert. and hope the wife's forename is Mary...
And I hadn't realised that there are no birth registrations before 1864. Does that mean that the dates of birth given are simply worked out based on the age given on the death certificates?
Regards, keith
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The name Maurice is pronounced as Morris in Ireland and it's not unusual to find either spelling for the same person. Kepple/Keppel are also usual variations.
The 'birth year' you see on LDS Pilot site is taken by subtracting age on death certificate from year of death.
If your Maurice Kepple was married in 1880 and had daughter Mary born c1882, daughter Katey born c1903 and a son William born possibly 1891 or earlier I suspect that there were lots of other little Keppels born 1883/1903.
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Aghadowey,
Yes, I suspect as much - regarding a large generation of KEPPLE/KEPPEL siblings. I think there's at least another family of that name producing children at the same time, but I don't think I can afford to send away for all of the birth registrations to know the exact truth. How privileged we are in the UK to have the various Censuses from 1841 until 1911 into which we can dip and fit whole families together decade by decade...
However, for the time being, I think I'll definitely send away for that 1880 marriage, and perhaps, more tentatively, that 1892 William KEPPEL birth certificate...
keith
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Hi Keith
I cannot find the W K aged 24 on the Spike Island barrack return. Maybe you have had more luck. The regiments there at the time are the 1st Battalion East Kents, RA and RAMC. If you can find him on the return you should be able to tell which of the three he was serving with, as they are grouped together.
His service record may be in with the WW1 records on Ancestry, if they were not destroyed during WW2, or if he served after 1920 they will be with the MOD. If you think he was Irish you should also watch out next year for the Irish government putting the 1901 census online.
btw...the only William Kebble with a WW1 medal card was in the Leinster Regiment - http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?Edoc_Id=3387578&queryType=1&resultcount=1
It is also on Ancestry. It says he went to France 19 December 1914 which matches when the 1st Battalion embarked. They were in India at the start of WW1. Maybe you should be looking at the FIBIS site, or Findmypast for regimental/overseas BMDs.
Also…I am pretty sure that the service record of the Wm Kepple born 1892 is on Ancestry. In fact two sets of papers – probably duplicates. He enlisted in the RA aged 15 in 1907, born Cork. You need to go through them to see if any of the family information matches.
Ken
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Conscription was never introduced in Ireland. So thay were all volunteers. It was being planned to combat the German 'spring' offensive of 1918, but the war ended before it was introduced.
Ken
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Ken,
You've managed to come up with some incredibly detailed information - almost out of thin air! Amazing...
Been a bit diverted by domestic things late morning till now, but will be in touch again late afternoon. Many thanks for these exciting details, beginning to look as though the individual born in 1892 might well be our man...
keith
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Ken,
Yes they were duplicates, but I've downloaded and printed William KEPPELL's (sic) record, which is very useful for giving his age pretty accurately in April 1907. I'm going to send for that 1892 birth registration now, as I'm convinced that this is the man I'm looking for.
Many thanks again for your assistance,
keith
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Hi Keith
Did he stay in the RA or transfer to an infantry regiment?
Ken
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Ken,
I'm not sure whether is says so anywhere on that form, or should I be looking somewhere else...?
keith
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re: Maurice Kepple in Cork City
There was a Maurice Kepple who was married to Elizabeth Dooly at Cathedral of SS Mary & Anne, Cork City, in 1839.
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Dooley,
Thanks very much for that...
I must dig out the research I was doing on this family to see whether this might be an important new piece of the tree. Certainly the forename and surname and the location look entirely correct.
Very best wishes, keith
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re: Maurice Kepple/Eliz Dooly
You might try emailing the Cork County Library to see if they have any information about children of these two.
They have an index of baptism and marriage records of the Cathedral.
I think this email address would work
Reference.Library@CorkCoCo.ie
Good luck.
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PS re: Maurice Kepple/Eliz Dooly
at irishgenealogy.ie I found one child, Catherine, born in 1846. There were also a few other Kepple entries, as well.
So the North Cathedral may not have anything on other children. Still worth checking with the library though.
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Dooley,
Thanks very much again for all that extra information, and the link. Will investigate tomorrow morning!
Regards, keith
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Hi Keith,
I beilieve that William Keeple was my great grandfather. All I know is that he was stationed in India with his wife. My grandmother Mary was born in Wellington, India, before she and her mother moved back to Ireland. William was beilived MIA or dead for years before he returned himself. Unfortunatly I know little else about him.
I would be delighted if you could pass on any information you have on him. I have just started looking into my family tree and I would love to learn more about William's Military Records.
Regards
Shane Cahalane
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Hi, Shane,
And welcome to Rootschat! And I have to tell you that you ought to delete your e-mail address from here as it compromises your privacy. However, I've made a quick note of it and will be in touch with you through my own e-mail very shortly.
I'm also very happy when a thread I've started suddenly comes back to life after lying dormant for a while - in this case about two and a half years. And I'm very interested in the details of your great-grandfather that you've already begun to tell us about on here. Supposed missing in action, then turning up back in his native Ireland a few years later - sounds like quite a story there!
Regards, keith