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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: delphi8 on Wednesday 09 December 09 21:39 GMT (UK)
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I'm posting this in response to Hollylianne's kind offer on the lookup board.
I would be very interested to know of any headstones for the surname of PATRICK at St Andrew's in Enfield. I already have the burial entries from the parish records.
In particular Aaron Patrick buried 1823 aged 81, his first wife Hannah, and their son Nathaniel Taylor Patrick buried 1828, but any other Patrick's are also of interest.
Related names are John & Mary Ravenhill age 79 & 77, husband and wife both buried 6th January 1837, and Ann Swain buried 1833 aged 67 wife of William buried 1850, also Aaron Patrick's natural son Thomas Moses Edwards buried 1856 aged 73.
Aaron Patrick was a victualler at the King's Arms at Enfield Highway, would anyone know any details for this inn such as location, if it still exists etc ?
Aaron's Will mentioned eleven cottages he owned called Patrick's Row at Enfield Highway - I can't locate Patrick's Row on a modern map so does anyone know where it was ?
Many thanks for any help.
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I had a look at oldmaps.co.uk but there are maps on top of eachother and I can't make head nor tail of the site at the moment.
However I think you might find that Patrick's Row, was just a row or terrace of houses which fronted Enfield Highway rather than a street in it's own right. I imagine it would be either renamed, refronted or long gone by now.
The only way that you might be able to narrow down the location is to check the 1841 census in case the houses are still known by that name. Then you can check around the neighbourhood following the enumerator's route to see if there are any landmarks, perhaps grand buildings or street intersections, which still exist today. This way you may get an indication of where Patrick's Row used to be.
Good luck.
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Thanks for checking Ruskie, that's a good idea about checking the 1841 census, I'll have a look to see if I can find any clues :)
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To start you off I've found Patrick'S Row in the 1861: (some place names hard to read)
Green st
Durants
Gate House at ?
High Road (K...gs St?)
Durants Lodge
High Road
Durants Farm 9 M.. St House
basket shop
high road (4 residences)
Patricks Row (11 residences)
Walnut Tree Lodge
Highway N (District Elwich? St James)
Paradise Cottage
Brick Lane
Br...e Hall
Some of the street names may have changed too. Got to dash out now. Hope you make some progress. You will need to try to find an old map and compare with a map of today. Good fun! ;)
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I just had a little look around ....
have a look at a modern map - there is a Durants Road at Enfield. I have been unable to locate any of the other places from the 1861 census but there was a Durant's farm ...
Also, if you go to oldmaps.co.uk and enter "enfield highway" you will see a "Green Street" which doesn't appear to be a street but a place :-\. Also a Brick Lane and near the intersection there is a "Kings Arms" - I wonder if this is the pub you are looking for.
The area is virtually unrecognizable today (pity) so doubtful if you will have any way to locate the exact whereabouts of Patrick's Row.
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Thanks again. From looking at those maps it seems that the Kings Arms pub was still called that until the 1920's at least and on Google street view there is a pub in the same location today called The Sporting Green so possibly it's the same pub just renamed.
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Having recently discovered that my direct line leads back to Aaron Patrick, I would like to correspond with you.
My name is James Sanderson and my personal email is:- (*)
Thanks
(*) Moderator comment
Email address removed in accordance with Rootschat policies to prevent spam and other internet abuses. Please use the Rootschat personal messaging system
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Hi James, a quick reply after three years. Hope you stilI use roomchat. I looked recently into my wife's ancestry and found that Aaron Patrick's eldest daughter Mary is her great great great grandmother. I tried to list all her close relatives and could send it to you as a PDF. Wohlert Wohlers
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Hi all, just spotted this thread after all this time, The Kings Arms mentioned on this thread is still and always has been at the top of Green Street, Enfield Highway, always known in my time as the " Top House " now the Sporting Green
Keyboard86
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Kings Arms marked here in the centre of the left map:
http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/sidebyside.cfm#zoom=18&lat=51.6568&lon=-0.0478&layers=176&right=BingHyb
Enfield Highway appears to be a 'suburb' or area rather than a road:
http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/sidebyside.cfm#zoom=17&lat=51.6584&lon=-0.0417&layers=176&right=BingHyb
Note the location of St James church and cemetery almost opposite the pub - might some of your family be buried there?
A lot of Nurseries in the area - it must have been lovely then. :)
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Good to see the maps. It must have been quite different in Aaron's days. I wonder where he cut his trees? In case you do not know the story:
Aaron was sent to prison and had to stand trial at the Old Bailey in 1783. You can find everything in the National Archives. The story is that he went with a friend and a servant to Enfield Chase in the middle of the night – quite suspicious – and cut down sixteen trees. It was the 28th of December, it probably was a very dark night. It took them three hours. That is known because the nightwatch saw them going there and greeting them without getting any answer – very suspicious. He saw them later and when they noticed him, they stopped and went quiet. Obviously they hoped to evade his watchfulness!!! He had just announced the fourth hour. The trees must have been fairly small. Half of them were valued at 40 shillings: oak timber trees. The others were likely to become timber trees. They got off because it was not clear to whom the trees belonged.
Court to Jury: The prisoners must be acquitted upon this indictment. That was on the 26th of February.
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Hi Wohlert Wohlers
Welcome to Rootschat ;D
James hasn't been online here since December 2012 but as long as his email address hasn't changed, should receive an email notification that you have posted and hopefully come back soon.
Dawn
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Many a 'HAPPY HOUR' spent in the Top House in my younger days, such good memories.
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Many a 'HAPPY HOUR' spent in the Top House in my younger days, such good memories.
;D A Ponders Plonker, two of us!
Where the trees would have been chopped down I would suggest was closer to St Andrews Church eg Chase Side Enfield (Enfield Town) Green Street to the River Lea and beyond led to marshland.
Keyboard86
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Hi all I do appreciate that the OP has not been online for some considerable time, but just in case any future researchers re Patrick/Ravenhill/Edwards in Enfield need assistance, this looks to be the Thomas Moses Edwards from post 1
1851 census
Samuel Ravenhill 48 Married occ Tailor/possibly even Sailor looking at 1861 RG09/800/4/3? Looks to be Yeoman?
Elizabeth B 17 occ Servant
Harriett 15 occ Governess
Susanna J 13
Anna W 9
Eliza M 7
Sarah M 2
Thomas M Edwards 67 Uncle occ Wheelwright b Edmonton
All others born Enfield
Residing Enfield Highway
Census ref HO107/1703/846/22
Keyboard86
PS in 1841 transcribed as Ravehill wife of Samuel a Mary b c 1806 not in county residing Green Street Enfield
Census ref HO107/653/ 5/48 / 10
Samuel a Tailor
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Hi all,
Samuel Ravenhill was a tailor just like his father John, who came from Ross. The dates I have are:
Samuel Ravenhill
* 14 Sept 1802 Enfield
† 18 Jan 1888 Enfield
married 15 Oct 1830 at St. Catherine Cree, London
Mary Brown Walden
* 4 April 1805 Beauchamp Roding
† 26 June 1898 Enfield
six daughters one son †
Elizabeth Brown Ravenhill (1834 – 1905) married John Attwood Halbeck
Harriet Brown Ravenhill (1835 – 1920) married twice – only child Mabel born in India died young at the age of 13
Susanna Jane Ravenhill (1837 – 1905) married John Wheeler, Savernake Forest
Reuben Albert Ravenhill (1839 – 41)
Annie Winifried Ravenhill (1841 – 1874) unmarried
Eiliza Mary Ravenhill (1844 – ? ) married Samuel Thomas Carter
Sarah Myrtle Ravenhill (1848 – 1935) married Henry Brown, Son of Richard Brown Accountant at Huntley and Palmers
Myrtle is Audrey Ravenhill Scriven née Ivimy’s (1917 – 2015) grandmother, my mother-in-law.
I know all this as a grandaunt wrote the dates down 80 years ago.
The two eldest sisters had quite some humor to call themselves servant and governess - to their younger siblings - at the 1851 census. I had not seen that. Quite funny!
The uncle Thomas Moses Edwards was born 1783 as a natural son to Aaron Patrick. He died 1856 in Enfield and is desribed as the Toll Gate Keeper at Waltham Cross Hertfordshire. He inherited Aaron's writing desk.
WW
Is there any possibilty to include a pdf here with the whole family tree? We own the Patrick bible now. I could put a picture on. But there is meant to be a Ravenhill bible as well with lots of information the grandaunt wrote.
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I've sent a personal message to delphi8 and Ironlay to let them know there have been replies here.
If they are interested, you could exchange email addresses with them and send an image that way.
It is not possible to post images on look-up request boards.
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Hi again , if correct was Mary Ravenhill aged 45 Married b Harlow shown as Farmers Daughter with Aldred/Whitbread and Walden families in Beauchamp Roothing in 1851?
Census ref HO107/1771/42/13
Keyboard86
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Hi Keyboard86,
Mary Brown Ravenhill‘s father was John Walden a farmer in Beauchamp Roding, born 1782, married to Elizabeth Brown who died 1820. Mary must have visited her family (brother?) in 1851. Are you sure it is not Alfred Whitbread? I have not looked at the census yet.
Are you a descendant of Mary? Or who do you come from?
Eiliza from yesterday is a spelling mistake‚ Eliza is right. I think she had no children.
WW
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Hi again, no connection at all to my knowledge of family, just helping out researchers like yourself!
The main people on that census are:-
Joseph Asser 79 occ Gardener b Fyfield
Sarah 76 b Cambridgeshire
Edward Whitbread 24 Grandson b Essex
Maria 15 Whitbread 15 Granddaughter b Essex
John Walden 67 Married occ Farmer of 96 acres b Essex
Marianne Walden Married 60 b Harlow
Mary Ravenhill Married 45 b Harlow
Emma Rayment 25 Married
Esther Walden 23
John Walden 22
Joseph Walden 17
John Rayment 23 Married
Plus more in household if you need them later
Keyboard86
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Which house were they in? WW
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Which house were they in? WW
Hi again, possibly a house but no name/number in the hamlet of Birds Green
In 1841 Joseph 69 occ Gardener and Sarah 65 are at Rectory House, Beauchamp Roothing
Census ref HO107/336/ 18/7 / 13
Keyboard86
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Hi! In 1874 a John Walden is listed as the farmer of Willis's farm in Beauchamp Roding. That must be him.
Joseph Asser and his wife and grandchildren were probably friends, the others family. Did they celebrate Marianne's 60th birthday? All the children were there including a son-in-law, John Rayment. I assume.
Now is John Mary Ravenhill's brother or her uncle? We have two pictures of her: a silhouette as a young woman and an ambrotype when she is about 60.
I can't find Willis's Farm on any map. It most likely still exists but with a different name. WW
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Hi Wohlert Wohlers
I think we may be related as Aaron Patrick was my 6th x great grandfather, I tried to send you a pm yesterday but I'm not sure if it sent ok. I would be really interested to find out more about the Patrick Bible you have.
Thanks :)
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Hi delphi8, did not get anything. It is not the bible but a book on the "History of the life of our blessed Lord etc etc" by Laurence Clark 1740. It belonged to Aaron's older brother Samuel and was handed then to Aaron. Who of the seven children of Aaron is your ancestor?
Hi keyboard86, I should not do calculations early in the morning! Mary went of course to see her father and stepmother Marianne in 1851. The John Walden in the directory of 1874 is probably Mary's half brother.
WW
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Hi again the John Walden at Willis Farm is on 1871 there, in 1861:-
John Walden 32 occ Farmer of 90 acres b Essex
Maria 27 b Woolwich
Henery 10 b Enfield
Ellen 6 b Enfield
William 1 month b Enfield
Mercy Creed 13 Visitor b Woolwich
Henery Walden Single 30 b Essex
Residing at Walden Farm, Road by Rectory, Beauchamp Roothing
Census ref RG09/7066/33/9
Keyboard86
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Hi delphi8, did not get anything. It is not the bible but a book on the "History of the life of our blessed Lord etc etc" by Laurence Clark 1740. It belonged to Aaron's older brother Samuel and was handed then to Aaron. Who of the seven children of Aaron is your ancestor?
Hi, I'm related to Aaron through his son Francis. I will send you another pm, if it doesn't arrive please let me know :)
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Hi delphi8, hope you got the pictures and the family tree.
And thanks keyboard for all the information. I did not realise that the census data can give you so many clues. I think Mary Ravenhill née Walden had five half brothers and sisters. 30 year old Henery in census 1861 must be another half brother who was not at Willis's farm in 1851.
WW