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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: Oaks and Acorns on Wednesday 09 December 09 10:21 GMT (UK)
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Would appreciate any help with tying down the location of this address, which I believe were a small development of Artisan Dwellings / Labourers Cottages. I have found the address listed on BMD certs and newspaper extracts listed variously as Baldoyle, Sutton, Kilbarrack and Howth. Dates are late 19th. to early 20th. century.
There were also references to Warren House, Warren Lodge and Warrenhouse Road, which I have located on maps. I believe these are connected but not what I am looking for.
I would really like to tie this address to a map location as I think it will help identify some of the in-laws and other family relatives in the area.
Dara.
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Thoms 1922 shows Warren House (Hanly) and Warren Villa (Mrs Mcdowell) on the Dublin Road .. which runs
East West from Sutton Cross and is South of the railway line to Howth.
This surprises me as in my Dublin Street atlas 2008, Warrenhouse Road is North of the railway and runs in a northerly direction - Warren Green is shown off this road (can't remember is it a new development, even though I drove past it yesterday - one doesn't see what one's used to!)
eadaoin
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Warren House and Warren Lodge were around what is now Binn Eadair View
http://ims0.osiemaps.ie/website/publicviewer/main.aspx#V1,724647,739851,6
pick Historic B/W option and then select the modern overlay option....
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Thanks for taking the time to check that out for me and sorry if I didn't make it clear on the earlier post: I have already found Warren House, Warren Lodge and Warrenhouse Road. :-[
It is Warren Cottages I am looking for.
Dara.
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no sign of Warren Cottages in Thom's of 1894, 1904 or 1914.. just the other places mentioned.
I suspect they could have associated with Warren house or Lodge, which are adjacent. The OSI 25i map that Ralph mentioned, shows a couple of smaller buildings to the west of the Warren estate (near to the build marked Old Warren house) without any captions that could be the estate workers' cottages. (they are labelled 341 ..345 on the map)
The road north of this is called Warren House Rd and there are other possibilities along there.. just to the north of the Railway Crossing
Shane
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I had a look at the maps Ralph posted and think the 25i is maybe more promising than the B/W one. I found a reference to Corporation funds being released to build 4 cottages in Kilbarrack and the ones near 'Old Warren House' on the map may be those - but its only a guess at the moment.
I have one family in continuous occupation from 1892 to 1909 and suspect that their daughter is living in the same house after that.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai000024196/
Dara.
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from Thom's 1914 is looks like Warren house was occupied by David Towell and family - they are listed on the census in the Howth / Burrow South (covers all of Burrow Townland in Howth Parish) townland
The Clarke household is listed in the Kilbarrick Lower in Howth DED
The 25i OSI map shows that the border between these two townlands is just to the west of Old Warren House - so these cottages are in the Burrow of Howth townland. Maybe the Clarke household is one the unmarked buildings just to the north near the railway crossing, which would be in the Kilbarrick Lower townland.
Shane
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Thanks for taking the time to check that out for me and sorry if I didn't make it clear on the earlier post: I have already found Warren House, Warren Lodge and Warrenhouse Road. :-[
It is Warren Cottages I am looking for.
Dara.
No problem took me all of 30 secs ;) I posted the link so you might be able to search for any likely unmarked cottage groups nearby
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.... Maybe the Clarke household is one the unmarked buildings just to the north near the railway crossing, which would be in the Kilbarrick Lower townland.....
Thanks Shane, that seems to make a lot of sense. The cottages just north of the railway line are right at the border of Baldoyle, Kilbarrack and Burrow, Howth so at different times a local official might (without consulting a map) have recorded the address as either of the locations. It would account for the different areas recorded on the various BMDs over a 20 year period.
Dara.
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100% correct.
I was in Dublin over the Christmas time and one of my aunts remembered the Clarke family and the house they lived in. It is north of the railway line on the left, on Warrenhouse Road.
Thank you all for your help.
Dara.
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great news... It's good to know that the theories we discussed ended up with a confirmed positive result!
Shane
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While looking for something different in Griffiths Valuation I found Warren Cottage.
The house I was interested in is Balscadden Cottage in the Burrow area of Howth - East from Baldoyle/Sutton Station to the 7 Mile Post and it's on the seaward side of the railway. (Apologies - can't seem able to put a link to the Griffiths map).
I'm trying to find out who lived in the Warren Cottage. It seems to be in the Quarry area of Howth (known locally as Higginbottom's Pond) but the map is not very clear - the plot reference looks like 1W but that is not listed in the original page. (most of the area appears to be owned by the Earl of Howth).
Would appreciate if someone could take a look at Griffiths and also any directory entries between 1850-1900.
Thanks.
Dara.
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I had a look at the Griffith's map and see Warren and Balscadden Cottages. The same buildings are not present on the older (late 1820s to 1840s) OSI maps. The area to the east of Balscadden is marked as Rabbit Warrens, and seem to be the inspiration for all the rabbit related place names in the area (Burrow townland , Warren house, etc).
It looks like Balscadden Cottage is in Burrow townland, and Warren Cottage is in Quarry townland. I agree the reference looks like 1W for Warren cottage, and 'c' for Balscadden cottage.
My reading of Griffiths for Quarry are that there are three properties along the coast 1/2/3 (west to east) divided into sections. Site 4 is the railway, slightly inland. Warren cottage is on site 1, which is dived into two sections - the cottage to the west and a quarry to the east. Two buildings are listed in site number 1 - one to Earl of Howth, the other to Edward Font, the remaining section of site 1 seems to be land (the quarry?) occupied by William Bryan. I dont see two buildings on the section of land.. The format of Griffith's seems to be a little different for this area - there's no Lessor / owner section.. not sure why
below see my interpretation of the details of the map :
Shane
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Thank you, Shane. That's exactly what I'm seeing on the map and glad we're reading Griffiths the same way. The site references and map don't seem to agree exactly.
The Earl of Howth lived in Howth Castle as far as I know. Some of the later maps show a racecourse in the Deer Park area around Corrs Castle (the old castle was used as a grandstand). I'm wondering if Warren Cottage was unoccupied and used as a 'sporting lodge' by the Earl? With rabbit, deer and fishing close by it would be reasonably well sited. Pure speculation but it would explain why Griffiths shows the Earl as the occupant.
Apart from Edward Piers (solicitor) in Balscadden Cottage (Griffiths) and Frederick George Hicks (architect) in Warren Cottage (1898) I can find no other occupants. Piers seems to have moved to Warren Lodge (about a mile west of Warren Cottage) some time soon after Griffiths.
Google has been practically useless as there are many Warren Cottages throughout the UK and WB Yeats lived in Balscadden Cottage, Howth (a different building entirely) in 1881.
I'll leave the thread open for a while longer to see if anything comes out of the woodwork.
Thanks again.
Dara.
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THORBURN~Mrs~Burrow of Howth; Warren cot.~Thom's Irish Almanac & Official Directory~1897
THORBURN~Mrs~Burrow of Howth; Warren cottage.~Thom's Irish Almanac & Official Directory~1904
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Thanks Dave,
Yet another little mystery now. Was FG Hicks (1898) a lodger with |Mrs Thorburn?
A few earlier ones would also be nice.
Dara.
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I double checked the 1894 directory section for Howth - and dont see anything for Warren Cottage or the surname Dave found (Thorburn), but there is something of interest in the index :
Wm. Thorburn, cement agent and concrete layer, 33
Dawson street - res . Warne [sic?] cottage, Howth
the other listings in the area, or which mention Warren or Balscadden, are :
Burrow
Miss E.J. Campell - Burrow national school
E.S. Lauder esq. - Caramore
Mr. James O'Connor
Kilrock Rd
Mrs. Kiernan - Balscadden cottages
George N. Ferguson esq JP - Balscadden
Sutton
Pierce Mahoney esq. - Warren Hse
Index
George Napier Ferguson, Balscadden, Howth; 48,Mountjoy-square
George N. Ferguson, esq. a. P. Balscadden, Kilrock rd. Howth
The two Thorburn entiries in the 1884 index are in Donnybrook and Blackrock.
The close listings in 1884 are :
Howth
Michael Noonan, Balscadden Ho.
Burrow
John Butler esq.
Edward Egan esq.
Mr. James O'Connor esq.
Sutton
Andrew Todd esq - Warren Hse
R.D. Kane - Warren Hse
not everyone is listed in Thom's.. especially those in cottages, or without a business or recognized trade etc
Shane
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Thank you Shane,
Plenty in there to keep me busy for a while.
Dara.
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What name were you hoping for?
KANE~Richard D. Howth-road; esq., Claremont, Warren lodge and Warren house~Thom's Irish Almanac & Official Directory~1857
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Without knowing the name you're after it's not easy...not Warren cottage but...
PIERS Edward Howth-road; esq., Warren lodge & 150 Gloucester-street, lower~Thom's Irish Almanac & Official Directory~1849
PIERS Edward Howth-road; esq., Warren lodge & 150 Gloucester-street, lower~Thom's Irish Almanac & Official Directory~1851
PIERS Edw. Howth-road; esq., Warren lodge & 150 Gloucester-street, lower~Thom's Irish Almanac & Official Directory~1852
PIERS Edw. Howth-road; esq., Warren lodge & 150 Gloucester-street, lower~Thom's Irish Almanac & Official Directory~1853
PIERS Edw. Howth-road; esq., Warren lodge & 145 Gloucester-street, lower~Thom's Irish Almanac & Official Directory~1855
Richard Kane then lives here in 1857...
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Dave,
Thanks for your help and all the info you have found.
The person I am looking for was a gardener and unlikely to be mentioned in any of the directories. From addresses on various BMD's I have linked him to Edward Piers (solicitor) at Balscadden Cottage and later at Warren Lodge. I also have Warren Cottage, Howth on a birth cert and his daughter later lived at Warren Cottages, Kilbarrack. I have verified the Warren Cottages, Kilbarrack bit as mentioned earlier.
I'm now trying to track her father through his employers who are mentioned in the directories. At the moment I'm following a hunch that he may have been working for the Earl of Howth while at Warren Cottage. Unfortunately I have not been able to find him on any Estate Records.
Once again, thank you for your input.
Dara.
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I think I have finally cracked this but before I put it to bed I would appreciate if someone could double-check the extent of the land of Warren Lodge on the Griffiths site. (Still haven't figured how to post links to the map!! (Sorry).
If you go to http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml
and search for Thomas Stafford, County = Dublin, Parish = Kilbarrack you should get two results, one for 1848 and the other for 1850. Check the details and see that Thomas is living in plot #9.
Click on the original page and you will see that he lives in Kilbarrack Lower, plot #9h.
Now go to the map and search Kilbarrack Lower for 9h. This is where the fun begins.
The plots in Kilbarrack Lower seem to run west to east, or left to right, depending on your orientation. I can quite easily find 1 to 8, with an occasional 12 or 13 thrown in for variety.
Are you seeing what I'm seeing?
Dara.
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I can see site 9 in the north east corner of the townland, just to the north of the railway line, but the sub-plots are not very clearly marked. I think I can see a,b and c .. but not the others (d to h).
Looking at Griffiths and the map letters a-e seem to refer to buildings with small plots of land (10 perches) in the east and south of the area, and the other items (f to h) refer to buildings only, which I think, could be those to the west of the site. There seems to be 5 of these ?
Shane
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I should be interested to hear from 'Shanew147' in respect of the discussion about the Warren at Howth in 1849 - I am interested in the residency in just that vicinity of a family of Daniel Robertson (who died there in September 1849) of his wife and some of his children arrived from England in August 1849 and lodged thereabouts, perhaps with the support of Captain McLintock Bunbury of Lisnavagh, Co. Carlow (who may have had an interest in local property thereabouts) at that time and for a few weeks (only, perhaps - or longer)
With thanks
Stephen Massil
(London) - Just to say that this is not family history but a research project concerned with Robertson