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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: helkar on Tuesday 08 December 09 21:15 GMT (UK)
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Looking for information. How would I get if any information on who lived in what street/lane etc. in the c1880s I am trying to confirm family names - if they are the right family. Would there be anything like the censuses which were lost.
Thank you
helkar
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there's no surviving census for that era, but there directories like Thom's which include street listings. These include businesses, trades etc and many private occupants (head of household), but usually exclude occupants of tenements and cottages etc.
if you post details of names, trades or street I can look them up.
Shane
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Hi Shanew147
Thanks for replying.
I found some 'ancestors' which I think belong to my family
Edward Peter FITZGERALD, bAP. 1891 19 Cumberland St. Dublin.
father was Thomas C. and mother Mary Rosanna Fitzgerald Father was a Stonemason.
Also Arthur James, 1894. and one I know Michaeal 1889.
The other being GLENNON 6 Fitzwilliam Lane, Thomas, 1861, Anne, 1859, Eliza 1872 Father Michael, mother Mary. No particular trade.
Thanks for any help you may be able to give.
helkar
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there's two different Cumberland streets listed in Thom's of 1894
Cumberland St. Nth - from Gloucester street to Britain street (North City)
19 Alexander Sweeny, chandler
Cumberland St. Sth - from Brunswick st to Hamilton Row (South City)
13 to 20 Tenements (no occupants listed)
I dont see Thomas (or any other Fitzgeralds) listed in the Stonemasons section of the trade's directory which usually means that he was employed by someone else rather than working as an independent trader or business owner.
Unfortunately numbers 6 to 10 Fitzwilliam lane are listed as Tenements in Thom's of 1863 - so no details of the occupants listed. The 1877 edition lists just two houses in the lane :
1. J. Bickersteth, vintner
5. John Singleton, horse dealer
Shane
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Hi Shane
Thanks for trying to find my 'ancestors' May well send for a couple of certs. to see if that would help.
helkar
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Helkar
I checked my source work based on The Irish Times 1859-1901 and found no references of interest in N.& S. Cu
mberland Street or in Fitzwilliam Lane (for which I have some 50 odd references). for Glennons or Fitzgeralds.
Regards Quaxer
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Hi Quaxer
Thanks for looking, I'll just keep hoping
helkar
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I dont see Thomas (or any other Fitzgeralds) listed in the Stonemasons section of the trade's directory which usually means that he was employed by someone else rather than working as an independent trader or business owner.
While what you say makes perfect sense and is a valid explanation I beg to differ with you slightly Shane.
If you look for William Hetherington, cabinet maker, in the last half of the 1800's to 1902 he appears in Thom's erratically. Sometimes he is under a wood working heading, sometimes at the Dublin city address (9 Fownes Street, behind Aston Quay and off of Temple Bar, where the town house and the workshop was located), sometimes at the home address (Whitehall, Crumlin) and sometimes not at all.
He certainly traded in his own name as a craftsman. Not being in the directory could also be that he didn't do anything about it that year i.e. send the form back (at all or in time). Did one pay a fee to be entered in the directory, how did "Thom" make his money? If money was tight that year who knows. All I know was that because he kept disappearing it took visits to three location to be sure I'd seen each year's directory from when I thought he started trading to when he died.
Happy hunting
Canuc
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Helkar. enter the irishgenealogy.ie/ site and in location type in 6 fitzwilliam lane and you might find something of help or interest to you.
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Hi
Thank you for replying to my request. I had looked at the irish site but in location I had typed Dublin. Putting in 6 Fitzwilliam Lane gave me slightly different names, one that was of interest to me. Thank you for putting me on the right track.
Would you know if 6 Fitzwilliam Lane was a large block of tenaments????
helkar
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Some of the more knowledgeable rootschatters will corect me if im wrong but i think its unlikely there were tenements as Fitzwilliam Lane ran along the back of both Merrion Sq South and part of Lower Baggot St but there may have been some 2/3 storey houses which were recorded as tenements
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not sure if the buildings were tenements exactly - but in 1911 there were about 16 buildings with over 60 families ... see Fitzwilliam Lane (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/South_Dock/Fitzwilliam_Lane/)
Shane
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Shane its just that my Grandparents house was a 2up 2down house and they were the only family living in it and it was still classed as a tenement and the same with a couple of the neighbouring houses.
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Shane its just that my Grandparents house was a 2up 2down house and they were the only family living in it and it was still classed as a tenement and the same with a couple of the neighbouring houses.
sorry about that
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I am looking for a Nicholas Carney born Dublin on Cole's Lane about 1810. His father, Peter was a coach builder there. Any info is welcomed for the name Carney. Thank you so much.
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I am looking for a Nicholas Carney born Dublin on Cole's Lane about 1810. His father, Peter was a coach builder there. Any info is welcomed for the name Carney. Thank you so much.
You can search early parish records (free) at http://www.irishgenealogy.ie/ , but I dont see a match for the baptism of Nicholas. The database is not complete yet, and more parishes are due to be added.
The date is a little bit early for any of the Thom's directories (they started publishing in 1844)... the earliest that I have (1848), shows no Carney's or Coachbuilder entries on Cole's Lane.
Treble Almanac/Wilsons directory of 1813 show two Carney entries :
Daniel Carney, Tallow-chandler, 126 James's St
Terence Carney, Apothecary, 44 Queen's St
(there's no street listing in these directories)
The 1829 Wilson directory doesn't show any Carney entries in the Merchants and Traders section
Shane
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You can search early parish records (free) at http://www.irishgenealogy.ie/ , but I dont see a match for the baptism of Nicholas. The database is not complete yet, and more parishes are due to be added.
The date is a little bit early for any of the Thom's directories (they started publishing in 1844)... the earliest that I have (1848), shows no Carney's or Coachbuilder entries on Cole's Lane.
Treble Almanac/Wilsons directory of 1813 show two Carney entries :
Daniel Carney, Tallow-chandler, 126 James's St
Terence Carney, Apothecary, 44 Queen's St
(there's no street listing in these directories)
The 1829 Wilson directory doesn't show any Carney entries in the Merchants and Traders section
Shane
Thank you so much for the info, celtic
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Shane its just that my Grandparents house was a 2up 2down house and they were the only family living in it and it was still classed as a tenement and the same with a couple of the neighbouring houses.
I am not sure why the entire street is classified as 'Tenement' - in the earlier Thom's. As you've mentioned there are single family occupied houses on the street, which I would have thought would not generally be classified as Tenements..
i.e. some of the houses seem to be bungalows, or 2 up 2 down (the ones with two windows, or 5 windows in the front), others have a single family. I would usually think of a tenement as larger building subdivided for multiple families - like 2, 4, 7, 10, 11 etc
I double checked the Thom's listings and for 1904 the street is listed as follows
Fitzwilliam Lane - from Fitzwilliam St Lwr to Merrion St. Upr
1 Tenements - 10 l (shillings rateable valuation)
2 to 11 Tenements - 7 to 14 l
The listing in 1914 shows a change in the details, and possibly some new buildings :
1a Edwd Brien / Patk. Brien - Cab & Car owner
1 to 11 Tenements
6 J. Cunningham, cab & car proprieter
15 Daniel Doyle, car owner
It looks like some additional development was carried out between 1904 and 1911, as the census shows numbers up to 16, rather than the 11 listed in 1904
Shane
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Helkar
At the risk of entering into the world of semantics the word tenement has a popular meaning which is not supported by the Oxford Dictionary ,which Dictionary adheres to a more legalistic definition. Perhaps a better choice of word would be slum .Unfortunately, this word has a more unpleasant ring to it. Pages 2-4 of the book, Dublin Slums 1800-1925 contain an interesting discussion upon the concept of the slum and are worth reading.
The 50 odd entries I have for Fitzwilliam Lane from the Irish Times 1859-1901 show a steady decline throughout the period mainly as regards criminal activity (in so far as a picture can be derived) .The earliest lease dates from 25/3/1789 (for No.8)
It should be noted that immediate proximity .. to high quality property was no bar to poorer residents...... consider the condition of Cuffe and York Streets and their proximity to Stephens Green in 1950/60......Regards Quaxer
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Hi Quaxer, i myself think its possible that the person gathering the info just said to himself ah ive done enough for one day ill mark them down as tenements. My grandparents didnt live in Fitzwilliam place and their house was in good nick up to the 1950's and they had their own business but their 2 bedroomed house was still recorded as a tenement, i suppose its one of those things we'll never know the answer to.
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there's two different Cumberland streets listed in Thom's of 1894
Cumberland St. Nth - from Gloucester street to Britain street (North City)
19 Alexander Sweeny, chandler
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I was searching my family tree on my great grandfather Alexander Sweeney and found this thread. How can i access the Thom's of 1894? I always believed they owned shops around britain street Dublin but no idea how to confirm it. What is a chandler?
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I was searching my family tree on my great grandfather Alexander Sweeney and found this thread. How can i access the Thom's of 1894? I always believed they owned shops around britain street Dublin but no idea how to confirm it. What is a chandler?
These Thom's directories are books, and other than some extracts of the 1850 and 60 editions are not available to browse online. A collection of these are available in the National Library in Dublin and other libraries. A few editions have been scanned and converted into CDs and are available to purchase from Eneclann. I have a selection of the original books.
The Cumberland street entry is the only listing for Alexander in the trades index but sometime additional details only appear in the street listings section. if you have details of the street names or types of businesses he may have been involved in I can have a look for other listings for you..
Shane
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What is a chandler?
A dealer in candles, oil, soap, paint & groceries. Not fresh produce.
A corn-chandler deals in corn and a ship-chandler in cordage, canvas, clothing etc.
Happy hunting
Canuc
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Alexander Sweeny is listed with the same occupation and address the 1884 and 1880 editions.
In 1877 19 Cumberland St (North) is listed as Mr. William Fitzachery. I dont see any listing for Alexander in the Trades index in that edition.
Shane
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Many thanks for your help, much appreciated. I'm only back as far as 1840's when my gt grt grandfather Alexander Sweeney was born. Dont know his parents names yet. I'd believed it to be hardware/grocery store but i'm in the process of searching addresses. How would i know if he leased or owned the shop? He died in 1897 and the 1911 census shows his wife Elizabeth listed under a shop in 107 gt britain street. It mentions her working in hardware store and also her son Bernard Sweeney.
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It mentions her working in hardware store...
Chandler is just an on fashioned name that could be applied to a hardware store. A ship-chandler today would sell hardware, so the information you have is consistent.
Happy hunting
Canuc
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Thanks for that, i'd never heard of chandler. Even the street names appear to have changed, just to confuse me further.
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I do not know what is the central theme of this subject ....Street Namres Dublin. Maybe some of this should be split up for ease of handling?
The Irish Times has 2 entries of interest for No.107 Gt. Britain Street. i.e.
On P.3 in the Police Court in the edition of 17th September 1889 Christoipher Keys (of Lower Gloucester St.) attempted to commit suicide in Mr Sweeney'S (Tobacconist) shop.
On P.6 of the edition of 14th May 1898 Alexander Sweeney is reported to have been fined for riding a bicycle on a pavement.
Slaters Directory for 1894 shows Alexander Sweeney (Chandler) as the occupier of No.107 Gt. Britain Street.
Quaxer.
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Thanks a lot for the reply and info. Yes i was originally searching alexander sweeney on the internet and saw this on someone elses search.
Alexander Sweeny is listed with the same occupation and address the 1884 and 1880 editions.
9 Cumberland St (North) (chandler)
From the 1911 census they had moved shop to 107 great britain street. I did laugh when you spotted the article in the times of the fine. That would have been his son also called Alexander. His mother Elizabeth and brother Bernard are listed as the occupiers in 1911. I've tried to search the times for these articles but impossible for me to read. Would i need to subscribe as without you giving me this information i wouldnt have spotted them? Thank you again, i will eventually put together the family tree on a website for the family and any story to match the names is appreciated.
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Dear Sweeney 47
I have always had good relations with the Irish Times newspaper and hold the newspaper in very high regard as being a newspaper which has given admirable service over the years to that part of Irish life which is nearest to my heart.
When free access to their archive was given in last December, I used it freely to compare with the source work I created on paper covering the period March 1859-April 1901. I was very disturbed by the results but would freely admit that I know little about computers and that the task of placing on computer the 150 year run is an enormous task.
Within the bounds of reason,I can look through my work for you or others if you so request
Regards Quaxer
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Thanks i sent PM.
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following on from the 1880/84 listings, some details from later directories :
1894 - 107 Gt. Britain St
Alex Sweeney, chandler
Thomas Dunne, dairy (sharing the same address)
building is on the corner of Cumberland Street Nrth Upr
1914 - 107 Parnell Street (renamed from Gt. Britain St)
Alex Sweeney, chandler
Shane
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Thanks Shane
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I have always had good relations with the Irish Times newspaper and hold the newspaper in very high regard as being a newspaper which has given admirable service over the years to that part of Irish life which is nearest to my heart.
When free access to their archive was given in last December, I used it freely to compare with the source work I created on paper covering the period March 1859-April 1901. I was very disturbed by the results but would freely admit that I know little about computers and that the task of placing on computer the 150 year run is an enormous task.
Within the bounds of reason,I can look through my work for you or others if you so request
Regards Quaxer
Hello Quaxer, I tried to find archives in Irish Times but dont seem to have any luck. I did not think they had free access. Can you tell me the exact site??? Thanks, Celtic
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The Irish Times archive website is at : http://www.irishtimes.com/search/archive.html
you can carry out a basic search free, which will show part of the headline, but have to subscribe to see the article details.
Shane
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My Mothers family lived in Fitzwilliam Lane up to 1930's they were recorded ther in the 1911 census, they were a family of 7 living in 2 rooms in a house with other families also living in one or two rooms my Mother always spoke of them coming from the tenements, many families from there moved to Crumlin in the 1930's.